R+L=J v.139

[RumHam]

Dragon history also does not go back far enough to match up with the original Long Night. There is a lot of speculation about them. But no culture as far as we're aware of had dragons, much less dragon riders, when the original long night happened. And again what exactly did these Dragons do to end the Long Night? Hunt down and burn the helpless Others who had no means of fighting back against dragons?

I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting the dragons were what turned things around in the first war of the dawn.

[Avalatis]

Technically is more than enough.

The point being is that wasn't what we were talking about. Lightbringer for instance is portrayed as a burning sword by some in the books. So yes you are right, there are "magic swords" in the sense that they were crafted with magic.

[RumHam]

The point being is that wasn't what we were talking about. Lightbringer for instance is portrayed as a burning sword by some in the books. So yes you are right, there are "magic swords" in the sense that they were crafted with magic.

In addition to Valyrian Steel and "Lightbringer" we also see magical flaming swords wielded by Thoros and Beric.

[Avalatis]

It's worth noting that the Targaryen version of the propechy, the "Prince that was Promised" version, does not mention Lightbringer or any kind of mythical sword. That's a key part of the Asshai version of the legend where the hero is called Azor Ahai.

Yeah there is a difference. The Targaryen prophecy only cares about the blood line. Azor Ahai cares about a hero and a weapon that this hero forges/uses.

But if the Azor Ahai prophecy was about dragons it seems kind of pointless. It would be like a prophecy of a special process of extracting water from the ground to kill the Wicked Witch.

[Avalatis]

In addition to Valyrian Steel and "Lightbringer" we also see magical flaming swords wielded by Thoros and Beric.

Isn't the assumption with those is that they used a long burning oil on the sword. I don't think we as readers were supposed to believe that it was magic. It was mostly a party trick to impress people with their religion.

[Avalatis]

I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting the dragons were what turned things around in the first war of the dawn.

You aren't. But LV has been. But he can defend himself on this. I'm debating two people on this subject and you each have a slightly different take on the dragons.

[hammer117]

Isn't the assumption with those is that they used a long burning oil on the sword. I don't think we as readers were supposed to believe that it was magic. It was mostly a party trick to impress people with their religion.

Thoros used to coat his swords in wildfire, but Beric's sword was certainly magical fire

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand, and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.

And then the sword took fire.

[RumHam]

Yeah there is a difference. The Targaryen prophecy only cares about the blood line. Azor Ahai cares about a hero and a weapon that this hero forges/uses.

But if the Azor Ahai prophecy was about dragons it seems kind of pointless. It would be like a prophecy of a special process of extracting water from the ground to kill the Wicked Witch.

My point was that the Targaryens were operating off the Prince that was Promised version, not the Azor Ahai version. I think the Nissa Nissa/lightbringer aspect of the Azor Ahai story is probably metaphorical. Even if it's not, this is supposedly a story of something Azor Ahai did. It's not something Azor Ahai Reborn is supposed to do, though I don't rule out the idea that Daenerys did this in a metaphorical sense to birth the dragons, as Lord Varys suggests. So the Nissa Nissa aspect is not part of any prophecy, as far as we know. It's just part of the history.

Isn't the assumption with those is that they used a long burning oil on the sword. I don't think we as readers were supposed to believe that it was magic. It was mostly a party trick to impress people with their religion.

Thoros originally used wildfire to fake it, but after the birth of the dragons and return of magic he and Beric can do it for real with their blood:

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand, and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.

And then the sword took fire.

Arya heard Gendry whisper a prayer.

You aren't. But LV has been. But he can defend himself on this. I'm debating two people on this subject and you each have a slightly different take on the dragons.

My mistake, I haven't read every post in this thread.

Thoros used to coat his swords in wildfire, but Beric's sword was certainly magical fire

Welcome back! I'm sorta curious how the mods will react to you being so blatant about it.

[Avalatis]

My point was that the Targaryens were operating off the Prince that was Promised version, not the Azor Ahai version. I think the Nissa Nissa/lightbringer aspect of the Azor Ahai story is probably metaphorical. Even if it's not, this is supposedly a story of something Azor Ahai did. It's not something Azor Ahai Reborn is supposed to do, though I don't rule out the idea that Daenerys did this in a metaphorical sense to birth the dragons, as Lord Varys suggests. So the Nissa Nissa aspect is not part of any prophecy, as far as we know. It's just part of the history.

Well then we agree on this more then we disagree.

Thoros originally used wildfire to fake it, but after the birth of the dragons and return of magic he and Beric can do it for real with their blood:

As with their ability to resurrect the dead. Magic is returning to the world, be it the comet, dragons, or some other force. The swords themselves wouldn't be considered magic. I would think the blood put on the sword was the magic. Though this isn't really important.

Welcome back! I'm sorta curious how the mods will react to you being so blatant about it.

Lol. Yeah that was my first thought. But I figured mark wouldn't just get banned and never come back. I was waiting for a new account to appear, I didn't think it would be so obvious though.

[hammer117]

Welcome back! I'm sorta curious how the mods will react to you being so blatant about it.

Lol. Yeah that was my first thought. But I figured mark wouldn't just get banned and never come back. I was waiting for a new account to appear, I didn't think it would be so obvious though.

Don't know what you guys are talking about

http://media.giphy.com/media/l41lUlH4XSji011Ly/giphy.gif

[Ser Creighton]

Don't know what you guys are talking about

http://media.giphy.com/media/l41lUlH4XSji011Ly/giphy.gif

Oh this has happy ending written all over it.

[BearQueen87]

Thoros used to coat his swords in wildfire, but Beric's sword was certainly magical fire

Look who got around the rules....

[Nami]

I was thinking, when Ned says that Lyanna was fond of flowers, does it mean she was always fond of flowers or it's a reference to R+L? Like she grew fond of flowers because of her crown of winter roses and how Rhaegar apparently showered her with flowers in ToJ? So Ned is kinda respecting his sister's love for the prince by bringing flowers to her grave.

The way it was phrased made me think about this.

"I bring her flowers when I can. Lyanna was...fond of flowers". Like he was choosing his words carefully.

[BearQueen87]

I was thinking, when Ned says that Lyanna was fond of flowers, does it mean she was always fond of flowers or it's a reference to R+L? Like she grew fond of flowers because of her crown of winter roses and how Rhaegar apparently showered her with flowers in ToJ? So Ned is kinda respecting his sister's love for the prince by bringing flowers to her grave.

The way it was phrased made me think about this.

"I bring her flowers when I can. Lyanna was...fond of flowers". Like he was choosing his words carefully.

It's the ellipses in that second phrase that always gets me. I think Ned is thinking about specific flowers--blue roses and those are of course tied to Rhaegar and HH and what that lead to (Jon). I do think it's an RLJ hint because you hear first that L was fond of flowers and then you learn a few chapters later that she is directly tied to a specific flower (a flower that is then repeated in ACOK and ASOS, both with RLJ hints) and specifically to a man who gave her that flower.

[J. Stargaryen]

I was thinking, when Ned says that Lyanna was fond of flowers, does it mean she was always fond of flowers or it's a reference to R+L? Like she grew fond of flowers because of her crown of winter roses and how Rhaegar apparently showered her with flowers in ToJ? So Ned is kinda respecting his sister's love for the prince by bringing flowers to her grave.

The way it was phrased made me think about this.

"I bring her flowers when I can. Lyanna was...fond of flowers". Like he was choosing his words carefully.

I think it's a R+L=J reference. He was choosing them carefully, hence the ellipsis. The use of "fond" reminds me of another passage involving Rhaegar. “The old knight hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”

Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. - ADwD, Daenerys IV. Looking back on the Ned chapter, you could also have though same reaction as Dany. Fond ... the word spoke volumes.

Also, what BQ87 said.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's possible. But dragons have existed before and there is nothing special about Dany's dragons that we've seen so far. In fact they seem less capable. They also don't seem to maturing fast enough to be incredibly relevant by the end of the series (unless Martin does a time jump).

The special thing about Dany's dragons is that they are the only dragons in the world..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think it's a R+L=J reference. He was choosing them carefully, hence the ellipsis. The use of "fond" reminds me of another passage involving Rhaegar. The old knight hesitated. Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.

Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. - ADwD, Daenerys IV. Looking back on the Ned chapter, you could also have though same reaction as Dany. Fond ... the word spoke volumes.

Also, what BQ87 said.

"Fond" from the Elia example suggested that Rhaegar, while he liked Elia, did not love her. If the "fond" Of the Lyanna example is taken the same way, does that mean that Lyanna, despite not really liking flowers, clung to these roses because they were from Rhaegar, or does it go further, and does it suggest that, whime she liked Rhaegar, she was not in love with him?

[Ygrain]

Look who got around the rules....

I'd say he didn't.

[Ygrain]

"Fond" from the Elia example suggested that Rhaegar, while he liked Elia, did not love her. If the "fond" Of the Lyanna example is taken the same way, does that mean that Lyanna, despite not really liking flowers, clung to these roses because they were from Rhaegar, or does it go further, and does it suggest that, whime she liked Rhaegar, she was not in love with him?

Lyanna was... fond of flowers.

Personally, I find the pause peculiar - as if Ned felt he had to be careful about the choice of words, perhaps leaving out something more emotionally charged.

[addicted to snow]

Thoros originally used wildfire to fake it, but after the birth of the dragons and return of magic he and Beric can do it for real with their blood:

I think only Beric's Blood & now Lady Stoneheart's blood can cause a sword to burn... those who cary that flame/ritual thingy that Thoros used to bring Beric back from the dead...