R+L=J v.139

[BearQueen87]

RumHum,

hm. Aerys/Rhaella may have allowed him to pursue his own scholarly interest up to a point. When they decided to tell him who he (supposedly) was, they also gave Rhaegar the prophecy to read and he, accepting that this was his destiny, decided that he should now better become a warrior.

I'd be surprised if Aerys/Rhaella would have allowed their son to develop the delusion that he was the world's savior on his own - or rather, I doubt that Rhaegar would have developed that delusion if his parents had not fed the idea to him.

Doesn't all of this assume that Rhaegar is openly discussing anything prophetic related with his parents? Rhaella, maybe, though R seems to have been much more comfortable only talking to Aemon. But I very much doubt R and Aerys had the kind of relationship where they spoke about deep things like prophecy, saviors and the end of the world.

[Lord Varys]

Not sure if Rhaegar ever met Aemon face to face. Somebody would have told him that he was (or may be) an expert on prophecy stuff. And it is clear that somebody must have told Rhaegar about Summerhall to allow him to draw the conclusion that the 'smoke and salt' may have referred to his birth at Summerhall.

I find it more likely that Jaehaerys/Shaera or Aerys/Rhaella originally draw that conclusion.

It is also not very convincing to believe that a young boy would actually connect the dots and see himself in an ancient prophecy he stumbles upon in the library (or wherever he found it). Not to mention that Rhaegar's tutors - especially Pycelle - would not have imbued him with a belief in magic and prophecy. There must be another source for this, i.e. the members of the royal family - Aerys II, Rhaella, and possibly the Queen Dowager Shaera, if she outlived Jaehaerys II. Rhaegar would have been too young to ever have a close relationship to his grandfather Jaehaerys but if Shaera lived into the first half of the reign of her son he might have been close to her.

And while it is true that we have no detailed description about Aerys and Rhaegar's relationship prior to Duskendale, there is one snippet suggesting that they were on good terms, and that Aerys was proud of his son and heir: At tourney in Lannisport Aerys was apparently genuinely happy with Rhaegar's success in the jousting, and I imagine this would not have been the case if he mistrusted him at that point. That seems to have been a consequence of Duskendale.

And Rhaegar's reluctance to openly move against Aerys may also be a sign that he loved his father very much - or had loved him, before he became overly erratic, disgusting, and cruel.

Rhaegar became a man grown in 275 AC, yet he only moved to Dragonstone after his marriage to Elia five years later, suggesting that he was comfortable at court and on good terms with his father.

Yandel does not seem to have any knowledge for this, but I imagine Aerys/Rhaella's desperation to have more children as well as Aerys' obsession to find a Targaryen/Valyrian bride for Rhaegar may have been connected to the prophecy. He may have ended up believing that the dragon heads/the promised prince could only be born if the Targaryen line remained pure.

[BearQueen87]

Not sure if Rhaegar ever met Aemon face to face. Somebody would have told him that he was (or may be) an expert on prophecy stuff. And it is clear that somebody must have told Rhaegar about Summerhall to allow him to draw the conclusion that the 'smoke and salt' may have referred to his birth at Summerhall.

Maybe. But Aemon is also just a Maester of the Citadel. Sort of automatically makes him smarter/more learned than your average bear.

Rhaella might have made a suggestion; I won't discount that. I just really doubt it would be Aerys simply since R and Aerys did not have that sort of relationship.

[Lord Varys]

And you base that assumption on what, exactly? What makes you believe that Aerys did not dote on his only son while he was a child, and also tried to prepare him for his special role?

[Avalatis]

I thought the WOIAF book made it clear that Rhaegar and Aerys had a strained relationship leading up to the abduction. Such as Aerys threatening to name Viserys heir. If Aerys had encouraged and told Rhaegar he was the "chosen one" why would he be antagonistic to him?

[BearQueen87]

And you base that assumption on what, exactly? What makes you believe that Aerys did not dote on his only son while he was a child, and also tried to prepare him for his special role?

Because it seems like Aerys was quite unhinged for most of his life. He just got worse at hiding it. Also, didn't Rhaella try to protect Viserys from Aerys, as if she learned from prior experience that Aerys and children do not mix. And what makes you think he doted on him when it seems that Aerys's personality has always leaned toward the manic.

I thought the WOIAF book made it clear that Rhaegar and Aerys had a strained relationship leading up to the abduction. Such as Aerys threatening to name Viserys heir. If Aerys had encouraged and told Rhaegar he was the "chosen one" why would he be antagonistic to him?

also that.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

There's a short comic strip of Ned's Tower of Joy dream out there for those of you who did not find it before me.

reported

[Lord Varys]

Avalatis gets the time line wrong. Aerys only threatened to name Viserys heir after Duskendale, when he believed Rhaegar was conspiring with Tywin against him. Aerys also originally separated Viserys from Rhaella when he feared for the life of that child. Rhaella only later shielded Viserys from Aerys' madness after Duskendale and during the following years.

Nothing suggests that Rhaella did try to shield Viserys from Aerys because he did not get along with young Rhaegar.

What we know of the young Aerys is that he had odd and weird notions and changed his lovers pretty quickly. That's it. That says us nothing about the relationship to his only son and heir.

It is clear now that from Aerys' side Tywin's comment during the Duskendale affair worsened the relationship, and I imagine Rhaegar realized that his father grew madder and madder so that he eventually felt he had to do something about that. If Aerys had never liked Rhaegar or always mistrusted him I imagine he would never have granted him KG protection, either, or revoked that protection later on.

[Avalatis]

There's a short comic strip of Ned's Tower of Joy dream out there for those who did not find it before me.

Awesome thanks for sharing.

[Avalatis]

Avalatis gets the time line wrong. Aerys only threatened to name Viserys heir after Duskendale, when he believed Rhaegar was conspiring with Tywin against him. Aerys also originally separated Viserys from Rhaella when he feared for the life of that child. Rhaella only later shielded Viserys from Aerys' madness after Duskendale and during the following years.

Nothing suggests that Rhaella did try to shield Viserys from Aerys because he did not get along with young Rhaegar.

What we know of the young Aerys is that he had odd and weird notions and changed his lovers pretty quickly. That's it. That says us nothing about the relationship to his only son and heir.

It is clear now that from Aerys' side Tywin's comment during the Duskendale affair worsened the relationship, and I imagine Rhaegar realized that his father grew madder and madder so that he eventually felt he had to do something about that. If Aerys had never liked Rhaegar or always mistrusted him I imagine he would never have granted him KG protection, either, or revoked that protection later on.

There was no timeline suggested. You implied that their relationship remained solid and that Aerys actually doted after Rhaegar. While Tywin might have been able to poison that relationship it is a far stretch to go from loving a son and thinking he's the grand savior your family has been preparing for, to threatening to disinherit him. Are you suggesting that whatever made Rhaegar change his mind about being TPTWP that Aerys' mind was also changed?

[Lord Varys]

My point was that Aerys may have had a good relationship to his only child until he began to mistrust him. Which happened only after Duskendale. And later still began the talk to name Viserys heir in Rhaegar's place. You brought up the latter fact as if this could be implied to the pre-Duskendale situation which it cannot. That's the time line error.

Aerys became mad and paranoid after Duskendale. He feared for his life and was irrational. Whatever he may have once believed about his son's destiny would not have mattered when thought that son was plotting to kill him.

[MtnLion]

Hell, Ser Barristan says point blank that Ashara turned looked to a Stark, Ned. And Martin's been trying to get readers to accept the fact that Ashara was NOT in Starfall the entire time, saying straight up that these fans are wrong. But you know how fanboy theories go.

I really take issue with that misquote. We have Barristan reaffirming that he is Kingsguard and sworn to chastity. Yet, in the one sentence that everyone cites to accuse Ned or Brandon, Barristan wishes that Ashara had practiced whatever the meaning was on him, first. Hmm, so let's examine the meaning of Ashara looking to Stark instead of Ser Barristan.

Definition:

look to:

1: to direct one's attention to <looking to the future>

2: to rely upon <looks to reading for relaxation>

Could it possibly be that Ashara was looking for justice? I believe that may have been the case. What could she look to House Stark for, that she could find from a celibate Ser Barristan? Had she been raped by the king?

Now, throw in that Harrenhal was near two years before the fall of King's Landing, which is approximately the date of Jon's birth, and it is quite clear that Ashara's stillborn daughter was born before the rebellion started.

[Nami]

I thought the WOIAF book made it clear that Rhaegar and Aerys had a strained relationship leading up to the abduction. Such as Aerys threatening to name Viserys heir. If Aerys had encouraged and told Rhaegar he was the "chosen one" why would he be antagonistic to him?

Maybe Aerys was going crazy and didn't care about this promised prince or whatever. Hell, he wanted to look like a dragon, thought his son was plotting against him, I'm pretty sure thinking Rhaegar was TPTWP was all but forgotten.

Who knows if he even believed in that prophecy to begin with. We know Jaeherys did, so he forced his two children to marry each other. Unless it is told in TWOIAF (which I still haven't read) nothing tells us Aerys was into the prophecy.

[Avalatis]

Maybe Aerys was going crazy and didn't care about this promised prince or whatever. Hell, he wanted to look like a dragon, thought his son was plotting against him, I'm pretty sure thinking Rhaegar was TPTWP was all but forgotten.

Who knows if he even believed in that prophecy to begin with. We know Jaeherys did, so he forced his two children to marry each other. Unless it is told in TWOIAF (which I still haven't read) nothing tells us Aerys was into the prophecy.

LV brought it up. Well I guess I brought up "why did Rhaegar think he was TPTWP?". LV suggested that Aerys told him when he was young and supported the promised prince as a loving doting father. I guess Aerys was mad, but his attitude near Lyanna's abduction is a near 180 degree off from what LV is suggesting.

[RumHam]

LV brought it up. Well I guess I brought up "why did Rhaegar think he was TPTWP?". LV suggested that Aerys told him when he was young and supported the promised prince as a loving doting father. I guess Aerys was mad, but his attitude near Lyanna's abduction is a near 180 degree off from what LV is suggesting.

I agree with Lord Varys that it's reasonable assume Aerys's negative feelings towards Rhaegar began with Duskendale. There's no reason to think Aerys disliked or mistrusted his son from an early age. Yes he eventually turned on him, but that does not seem out of character for Aerys. He's described as the kind of guy who might consider you a loyal friend one day only to have you burned to death for treason on the next.

[MtnLion]

LV brought it up. Well I guess I brought up "why did Rhaegar think he was TPTWP?". LV suggested that Aerys told him when he was young and supported the promised prince as a loving doting father. I guess Aerys was mad, but his attitude near Lyanna's abduction is a near 180 degree off from what LV is suggesting.

What we have is that Varys sowed the seeds of mistrust right before the Harrenhal tourney. The outcome of that mistrust was Aerys doing what he had not done since Duskendale, leave the Red Keep.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Since it is over 400 a new thread?

[Lord Varys]

Why I think Aerys and Rhaella both might have concluded/hoped/come up with the idea that Rhaegar was the promised prince, followed their father's/mother's conclusion that this was the case:

First, there is the fact that Aerys and Rhaella knew they were forced into a marriage due to their father's (insane/irrational) belief in a prophecy. There is a good chance that they wanted to live up to the expectation that they would be the parents or grandparents of the savior of the world. Especially since that would give their arranged marriage some deeper meaning.

The whole story about them trying to have more children can be explain by dynastic needs alone, but I don't think that's the full story. Aerys had one healthy heir in Rhaegar, and while Steffon was alive he had a trusted friend and spare heir in his first cousin. It would have unpleasant had the Targaryen dynasty died in the male branch with Aerys II, but Steffon could have taken over.

But if prophecy pressured Aerys and Rhaella to have more children, too, it could provide a powerful second motivational layer as to why Aerys' state of mind deteriorated over this heir thing, and how he got the notion that those children were in danger - evil forces might have an interest to prevent the savior(s) of the world from being born or survive until adulthood.

Yandel would know nothing about the internal affairs of the royal family they did not care to share with Pycelle - or stuff Pycelle did not care sharing with the Citadel. But I imagine prophecy/magic was a very hushed up topic at the courts of all the Targaryen kings.

I'm not saying Aerys and Rhaegar were necessary best buddies until Duskendale, or had the best father-son-relationship ever, but I think we have no reason to believe that Rhaegar did not love and respect his father as a father until he became really completely deranged (and even then, I imagine, pity would have been his most prominent emotion for most of the time), and there is also no reason to believe that Aerys did not love his son as a son, and was proud of him. In fact, if he did not like all that much by the time of Viserys' birth he most likely would not have taken him to the tourney at Lannisport, nor would he have cheered him there or allow him to cover himself in glory by participating...