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BearQueen87

R+L=J v.139

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I wouldn't worry about me, season 5 leaked spoiler and pirated episodes are strictly taboo on this site. Ran put the word out this morning, "we don't pirate" So whatever you do keep it on the down low, I don't want you getting in trouble. Me I can wait, waited 5 years for Dance and 4 and counting for winds, 3 months isn't going to change anything in my world. It's a few hours till episode 1 and I am all good.

"Discussion of leaks and, especially, discussion of where one might find them, is certainly a ban-worthy offense. We don't support piracy around here, folks."

Oh okay, Thanks.

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Nothing suggests that Varys even was at Harrenhal. Sure, he could have been, but as of yet nobody has mentioned him there and we have quite a lot of recollections and reports on the tourney by now. This is strange.

It is also clear why Rhaegar didn't proceed with his idea after Aerys tagged along. The tourney was supposed to be a front, and when the Lords had assembled Rhaegar would proclaim and open the Great Council and preside over the debates. Without Aerys there it would have been turned into a Great Council - but Rhaegar could not possibly try to do the same with his father being present. Talking informally about royal madness and stuff isn't going achieve anything at all.

Oh, and by the way:

I say Lord Hightower was the shadow host. He had the necessary coin, he most likely was there, and he had, well, reasons...

I think it's also interesting the Lord's who didn't attend.

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I'm sorry , i'm kinda new in here and have no idea what PM means , but i would be happy to oblige if you really wanted some spoliers if there's a way to do it without breaking the rules of the forum. Just let me know how to do it and not spoiler it for everyone else.

Oh sorry, :) Private message me.

You do that by clicking Alia's profile picture. On the following page you click on "Send me a message". Type your message and ask for Alia's personal email address or tell her your own email address or both.

Please, please, as @Ser Creighton asked you to and I strongly second this, do NOT trade links to pirated stuff on the series on this site (including the private message). You'd really step on the admin's guts there, and make some people very unhappy, or probably even be asking for some measure of retaliation. We don't want that.

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I'm avoiding any and all show spoilers for the leaked stuff. I mean, not that it's REALLY spoilery at this point and time, right? Confirmation of RLJ is nice but not like I'm desperately waiting for that confirmation. To me, it's basically canon at this point and I'm just waiting on the details.


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I'm avoiding any and all show spoilers for the leaked stuff. I mean, not that it's REALLY spoilery at this point and time, right? Confirmation of RLJ is nice but not like I'm desperately waiting for that confirmation. To me, it's basically canon at this point and I'm just waiting on the details.

Well, the first four episodes were leaked in their entirety last night, so it's probably going to be bad for spoilers now.

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Well, the first four episodes were leaked in their entirety last night, so it's probably going to be bad for spoilers now.

Well, but is anything *really* a major spoiler for us at this point? Yes, how the episodes play out, but if S5 is a combined AFFC/ADWD with the stuff from WOW that GRRM has really already given us (Alayne, Mercy, Theon....) then is it really spoilery? That's what I'm getting at. I'm not going to pirate the episodes just to see what happens cause...we kinda already know.

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Well, but is anything *really* a major spoiler for us at this point? Yes, how the episodes play out, but if S5 is a combined AFFC/ADWD with the stuff from WOW that GRRM has really already given us (Alyanne, Mercy, Theon....) then is it really spoilery? That's what I'm getting at. I'm not going to pirate the episodes just to see what happens cause...we kinda already know.

Well they're diverging more and more from the books. The writers have been saying that they will kill off more people who don't die in the books. So yeah there are probably things to be spoiled for the TV show.

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Well they're diverging more and more from the books. The writers have been saying that they will kill off more people who don't die in the books. So yeah there are probably things to be spoiled for the TV show.

Yeah I have read that book readers will be getting spoiled this season as well as surprised. Which I am alll good with, keeps it intresting.

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Yeah I have read that book readers will be getting spoiled this season as well as surprised. Which I am alll good with, keeps it intresting.

Will be even more interesting to see how much is not in the books...

But, RumHam makes a good point: as they diverge, then there are more show spoilers than books spoilers. Or which ones we'll be wondering are in the book.

Ah well. RLJ!

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There is no textual evidence that Jon Snow is Rhaegar Targaryen's legitimate son or else we would not discuss this question at all. Just as we don't discuss whether Tyrion has murdered Tywin.

There are hints, and I'd even say that ADwD has confirmed that Jon is not Ned's son, but we are still lacking a sentence actually confirming the whole thing in detail.

We are lacking a sentence that actually points to RLJ.

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Yeah I'm way more concerned about show spoilers than the show spoiling the books. I agree that most of the things that show will spoil for the books are things we have long speculated. For the most part it will be hard to know what's a spoiler and what's another deviation from the books.


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I watched the leaked episodes and here are some spoiler free comments:



Having seen the released trailers, been lightly in some of the show news/speculation threads, nothing happened that I had not expected. So do yourself a favor and watch the episodes in their due time, when they are released officially.



Now let us return to discuss why Rhaegar missed a perfect chance to dethrone his father, especially after he exposed his condition to the Realm at Harrenhal.



I don't think fear is the answer. Wherever Aerys was, they would still talk about dethroning him and opposing him. So, the fear of being burned alive for treason was always there. OTOH, Rhaegar would have difficult time in convincing the Lords that the king they once knew was no more, had Aerys not showed himself at Harrenhal.



Rhaegar was no pussy. Something more important than who sits on the IT (something like the Song) must have happened and Rhaegar must have given up trying to play the Game.


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Generally speaking I doubt that show spoilers could actually spoil book stuff in its fullest detail as show character C will to action A out of motivation M in the show and a completely different character C with the same name will do a completely different action A out of motivation M in the books. I don't think we can be sure that even stuff we expect to happen in the books will happen the way they happened in the show in the books when the show completely ventures into TWoW territory.



This could even extend to the Jon Snow thing. Perhaps the show runners want Jon to be a bastard? Or they want him on the Iron Throne? Or they want to kill him?



The show has changed many main characters of this series in so many ways and so thoroughly that telling the story George's way makes at times no longer even sense (that was particularly striking last season, if my memory serves, as a lot of book stuff happening therein felt wrong from the POV of the characters in the show).



In short: I don't expect any major spoilers in the show in the near future.


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I watched the leaked episodes and here are some spoiler free comments:

Having seen the released trailers, been lightly in some of the show news/speculation threads, nothing happened that I had not expected. So do yourself a favor and watch the episodes in their due time, when they are released officially.

Now let us return to discuss why Rhaegar missed a perfect chance to dethrone his father, especially after he exposed his condition to the Realm at Harrenhal.

I don't think fear is the answer. Wherever Aerys was, they would still talk about dethroning him and opposing him. So, the fear of being burned alive for treason was always there. OTOH, Rhaegar would have difficult time in convincing the Lords that the king they once knew was no more, had Aerys not showed himself at Harrenhal.

Rhaegar was no pussy. Something more important than who sits on the IT (something like the Song) must have happened and Rhaegar must have given up trying to play the Game.

How about winning. Can Rhaegar really be assured that the Lords of Westeros will vote HIS WAY while Aerys is *right there*?? I don't think so. They are a fickle lot and ones ruled by fear and family concerns. If Rhaegar calls a GC right then and there with Aerys sitting across the table--however much he has declined--Rhaegar cannot be 100% sure that the lords will follow.

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How about winning. Can Rhaegar really be assured that the Lords of Westeros will vote HIS WAY while Aerys is *right there*?? I don't think so. They are a fickle lot and ones ruled by fear and family concerns. If Rhaegar calls a GC right then and there with Aerys sitting across the table--however much he has declined--Rhaegar cannot be 100% sure that the lords will follow.

Well when Rhaegar was missing and Aerys called his banners, many of them came to fight for him. The Vale had it's own civil war, the Tyrells came, the crownlands came, so he in fact did still have loyal supporters. The Storm lands fought amongst themselves. Had Tywin actually come to his aid the war would have been decided, but Tywin did not take a side till it was all but over. The World book also points to him having supporters. He also had spies, lots of them thanks to Varys, and he had lords whispering in his ear.

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The assumption that Aerys needed to be shown to the Realm so that the lords could see what he had become because else they would turn against him is a huge stretch.



Aerys' appearance clearly did not bring him any new sympathies but nothing suggests it motivated anyone to open treason - else there would have been a Great Council at Harrenhal and he would have been deposed in favor of Rhaegar or Rhaegar (and others) would have ruled the Realm as regents in Aerys' name.



Aerys and his administration clearly were still in power at the time of the tourney. Had Rhaegar tried to move against Aerys he and his allies would have been arrested and executed. End of story.



Rhaegar's plan obviously was to assemble as many lords as possible at Harrenhal as that would have completely crippled Aerys and his cronies capability to raise an army against them or march on them as the king would essentially have marched against most lords of the Realm.



On the other hand, the lords at Harrenhal would not necessarily have been Rhaegar's friends. It would have been an open debate about Aerys and his state of mind, and we know that Aerys could still be generous and kind. There would have been many lords who thought that a mad Aerys might make a better king for their own plans and design than Rhaegar. And if things had drawn on Aerys could have shown up during the council and put an end to it. Or lords trying to win Aerys' favor could have taken or assassinated Rhaegar and his friends. The possibilities are endless. I imagine Aerys had a good chance of winning even while being absent as a son deposing or usurping the place of his father would have set a very dangerous precedent for patriarchal society of Westeros.


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Well, but is anything *really* a major spoiler for us at this point? Yes, how the episodes play out, but if S5 is a combined AFFC/ADWD with the stuff from WOW that GRRM has really already given us (Alayne, Mercy, Theon....) then is it really spoilery? That's what I'm getting at. I'm not going to pirate the episodes just to see what happens cause...we kinda already know.

Eh, depends. It's not so much whether one knows something that might be coming, it's just the fact that tonight is the premiere and if I've waited this long, there's no reason to watch now. I have no intention of watching them because GoT has been my date night tradition with my husband for the past 5 years, and I'm not ruining that now.

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We are lacking a sentence that actually points to RLJ.

Yes, because Martin is absolutely going to give away his biggest mystery in the book by giving us one whole sentence to "point" to it.

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How about winning. Can Rhaegar really be assured that the Lords of Westeros will vote HIS WAY while Aerys is *right there*?? I don't think so. They are a fickle lot and ones ruled by fear and family concerns. If Rhaegar calls a GC right then and there with Aerys sitting across the table--however much he has declined--Rhaegar cannot be 100% sure that the lords will follow.

The assumption that Aerys needed to be shown to the Realm so that the lords could see what he had become because else they would turn against him is a huge stretch.

Aerys' appearance clearly did not bring him any new sympathies but nothing suggests it motivated anyone to open treason - else there would have been a Great Council at Harrenhal and he would have been deposed in favor of Rhaegar or Rhaegar (and others) would have ruled the Realm as regents in Aerys' name.

Aerys and his administration clearly were still in power at the time of the tourney. Had Rhaegar tried to move against Aerys he and his allies would have been arrested and executed. End of story.

Rhaegar's plan obviously was to assemble as many lords as possible at Harrenhal as that would have completely crippled Aerys and his cronies capability to raise an army against them or march on them as the king would essentially have marched against most lords of the Realm.

On the other hand, the lords at Harrenhal would not necessarily have been Rhaegar's friends. It would have been an open debate about Aerys and his state of mind, and we know that Aerys could still be generous and kind. There would have been many lords who thought that a mad Aerys might make a better king for their own plans and design than Rhaegar. And if things had drawn on Aerys could have shown up during the council and put an end to it. Or lords trying to win Aerys' favor could have taken or assassinated Rhaegar and his friends. The possibilities are endless. I imagine Aerys had a good chance of winning even while being absent as a son deposing or usurping the place of his father would have set a very dangerous precedent for patriarchal society of Westeros.

Rhaegar could not be sure that he would have following in any case, whether Aerys was there or not. So, by this logic, this whole thing (dethroning Aerys) was a terrible idea, a childish dream.

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