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BearQueen87

R+L=J v.139

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Thus: Just because somebody has not yet been mentioned doesn't mean he wasn't there, and vice versa.

In general, completely true, with one exception, I think. Catelyn Tully was not specifically mentioned to have been absent, but it is stated that she did not see Ned until the day of her wedding, and Ned was at Harrenhal, with Catelyn's betrothed. It would be highly unlikely for Catelyn to have been at Harrenhal, and not have seen Ned there, during, for example, the feast, or during any of the other days of festivities.

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OMG! My notice system is working again. It's been a month or more since I've been able to get notices that people are quoting me. So annoying.

Anyhow!

Do you mean to tell me that both GRRM and D&D are lying and the book ending and show ending will be completely different? Because if that's true I want my money back, all of it! Books and show, I don't like liars or hacks.

XD

You could have a quote from GRRM, D&D and God that says "THE ENDING WILL BE THE SAME" and people still won't believe it until they see and read it for themselves.

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LV--



Wishful thinking. I suspect that the "huge twist" will be less earth shattering than some people hope. What I think they mean by the same ending is that the "war" will go the same way. There will be the same forces on each side. The same people will die in the war. The way that they "win" the war basically will be the same. The power structure left in place for Westeros at the end will be the same. The main characters and main antagonists, like Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Cersei, etc. will play basically the same role in the endgame and have the same basic resolution of their fates.



Will the story get to where it is going with different routes and different plot points -- for sure. But just like any telling of Cinderella involves he losing her slipper and the prince finding it and eventually her and getting together with her (maybe not the best example, but hopefully you get my point), the TV is intended to tell the same story so the ending basically needs to be the same. Cinderella is not going to end with Cinderella deciding that she does not really like the prince and wants to run off and strike out her own way. So even if much of the details are different, the primary plot points in the end will basically match.


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I cannot seem to find the right thread to post a hint at the new Game of tees series at Teefury.


If you need the Martell sun or Jon-ish stuff, or a treated imp. I couldn't help myself when I saw it.


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XD

You could have a quote from GRRM, D&D and God that says "THE ENDING WILL BE THE SAME" and people still won't believe it until they see and read it for themselves.

To be fair, I won't believe it 100% until I see it myself (I'm very much of the opinion that they're going to the same place, D&D via the Interstate, GRRM through the backroads)

But still. Look at how much the story changed from the supposedly accurate publisher's letter. I don't think George will change the ultimate ending of the story, but even major characters endings may be substantially different if he feels the characters are developing that way, and his initial outline doesn't make any sense. Hopefully, we're far along enough that won't happen, but who knows.

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UL,



my point is that George could write himself into a corner again - hello there, five-year-gap and Meereenese know - and decide to change stuff or write something completely differently because that's the only way things work now.



He may have ideas how things are going to end but there is the very real possibility that character X is not going to end where George always envisioned him or her because it would, after what the character has now done and experienced and how he is connected to the other characters, simply make no sense for him or her to behave in this particular way.



Sure, the guys involved will want to end the show the way George wants it to end. But the truth is that neither they nor George himself knows how the stuff ended in detail until he has written it. Little changes can have huge consequences.



And the whole travel metaphor is completely wrong in this whole thing:



If the motivation and psyche of a character isn't the same it makes no sense to expect him or her to do or want the same as a character with different motivations and a different psyche. Thus we should not expect that, say, Jaime does the same thing in the end of the show than he does in the book series after he has never encountered Edmure, Brienne, and Catelyn in the Riverlands. Realistic characters are shaped by their experiences, and if D&D's Jaime does not have the same experiences we should not expect him to act or do the same stuff as George's Jaime.



I guess a lot of people do not care about motivations and stuff but there are those who do. Motion pictures on the screen aren't everything.


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LV--



I think the Meereenese knot is a good example of what I mean. Yes, I agree that GRRM did not know exactly how he was going to write the conflict. He knew that Dany was going to face resistance -- would suffer some losses due to the resistance -- and eventually yield to some extent to resolve the conflict. I suspect he also always knew it involved her agreeing to a marriage with a local (and then eventually ride off on Drogon). I think GRRM knew these plot points before he started writing DwD but when he got down to writing the details, he got stuck (thus, the knot). But in the end, GRRM stuck to these basic outline of events -- he just had trouble figuring out what the filler would be. The point seemed to be that GRRM needed Dany to face trouble ruling and learn the lessons of what it take to rule as an actual day-to-day ruler. The details can be varied without losing the basic plot development.



So yes, without the books to guide them, D&D may be forced to make up more the filler than they otherwise would have done. But the basics of where the plot is leading the characters and why likely will remain the same. And if Jaime's outcome deviates more than others, I suspect it will be because in the end, his journey will not be as central to the endgame as others, so D&D felt more free to deviate (although if he died in the books, i suspect he will die around the same point in the action on the show). But for those who play a central role in the endgame, I strongly suspect they will play the same basic role with the same basic outcome.


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UL,



the Meereenese knot was a major problem. And George doesn't really use notes or outlines and stuff. I know that he wrote three versions of the AFfC Prologue from different POVs just to see what works best, and he also wrote three versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen one of which had Quentyn arrive after Archmaester Marwyn.



Things are really complicate there, and the story seems to be still growing in the telling. All I'm saying that not only details may change in the process. George cannot really tell D&D how stuff is going to turn out when he has not written it. He may have a vision of X there, but during the writing it may transform into Y - and Y may make the ending Z impossible.



If things were as easy as you suggest George would never have needed as much time as he did need to finish ADwD. The man is a professional writer, and he can write. If he would write following an outline and not in a trial-and-error process he would have finished with the whole series a decade ago.



Rhaenys,



I guess we could retcon this to 'never actively interacted with/or recognized Ned Stark'. He was a shy guy, after all, and the Tullys not being at Harrenhal would practically demand that there be a very good explanation where they were.


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To be fair, I won't believe it 100% until I see it myself (I'm very much of the opinion that they're going to the same place, D&D via the Interstate, GRRM through the backroads)

But still. Look at how much the story changed from the supposedly accurate publisher's letter. I don't think George will change the ultimate ending of the story, but even major characters endings may be substantially different if he feels the characters are developing that way, and his initial outline doesn't make any sense. Hopefully, we're far along enough that won't happen, but who knows.

I'm sure there will be differences, but Martin and the showrunners have both stated that the show will use the ending and hit the same 'big' moments.

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I'm sure there will be differences, but Martin and the showrunners have both stated that the show will use the ending and hit the same 'big' moments.

And I don't doubt that it will, based on what the major ending points are now. I'm not sure, based on the writer that GRRM is, that that ending will be the same by the times the books are finished. I think they will be the same, but I think we have to be open to there being a difference (major character twist being considered that developed organically, for example).

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Rhaenys,

I guess we could retcon this to 'never actively interacted with/or recognized Ned Stark'. He was a shy guy, after all, and the Tullys not being at Harrenhal would practically demand that there be a very good explanation where they were.

To be fair, I never said the Tully's weren't there.. I said Catelyn most likely wasn't.. Hoster and Brynden, for example, could have been there. ;)

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And I don't doubt that it will, based on what the major ending points are now. I'm not sure, based on the writer that GRRM is, that that ending will be the same by the times the books are finished. I think they will be the same, but I think we have to be open to there being a difference (major character twist being considered that developed organically, for example).

While some details can change -- I am not sure the main plot developments can change. GRRM has been setting up the ending since the first chapter of the first book. As GRRM has said, he cannot change the ending because it would end up being a "lie" to the readers. GRRM knows what all the prophecies and visions and foreshadowing mean. And in the end, looking back, they all should make sense based on GRRM "master plan" for the series. If he deviates too much, then all of this ground work becomes not only useless, but misleading to the readers in a way that GRRM has stated he will not do. So GRRM might change some things, but the overall ending has been laid out in too many ways for too long for GRRM to change his mind now. I understand he does not use an outline, but he knows where the plot is going -- otherwise the prophecies and visions and foreshadowing would not be possible.

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And I don't doubt that it will, based on what the major ending points are now. I'm not sure, based on the writer that GRRM is, that that ending will be the same by the times the books are finished. I think they will be the same, but I think we have to be open to there being a difference (major character twist being considered that developed organically, for example).

That note to the editor is about 20 years old about what would happen in the story starting from the first book. I don't think it's fair to say that since he changed his mind 20 years ago when he was just starting the books that he must change his mind 20 years later when he's writing the end of them.

He obviously has a destination now, and he's more or less locked himself in at this point. He can't just change things willy nilly anymore and have the story make sense.

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Unfortunately for us, when GRRM knows where the story is going, he loses interest in the writing. :(

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Unfortunately for us, when GRRM knows where the story is going, he loses interest in the writing. :(

Maybe that is why it is taking him so long to write the next book? Has he worked out too many of the details (in part because he had to lay them out more clearly for D&D) and thus has lost some interest, making it a slower writing process?

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UL,



George is not going to change stuff he has previously hinted at. Say, Varys/Illyrio are not suddenly turning out to Starks for, well, reasons, nor is is Jon Snow not going to turn out to be Lyanna's son by Rhaegar. But this doesn't mean that he'll not subtle modify stuff. Jon Snow could, for instance, turn out to be Rhaegar's legitimate son or his bastard regardless of what George had in mind when he put the clues - as they are not completely conclusive and the story would not contradict itself if one or the other turned out to be true.



The same is true for the various prophecies and visions - the stone beast breathing shadow fire, Dany's betrayals, the golden crowns and shrouds, the valonqar - all that should make an appearance in the story. But there is no reason to believe that the end is sort of set in stone and only the road there is to be determined. A lot of stuff happens on the road, and there are also mortal accidents occasionally...


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I'm pretty sure that the meaning of "to reach the west, you must go east" and "you must pass beneath the shadow" has changed from his original plan of Daenerys retreating to Asshai. Now it's just her going to slavers bay and the shadow could well just be Drogon's shadow passing over her.


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I'm pretty sure that the meaning of "to reach the west, you must go east" and "you must pass beneath the shadow" has changed from his original plan of Daenerys retreating to Asshai. Now it's just her going to slavers bay and the shadow could well just be Drogon's shadow passing over her.

I don't think so, Martin brought that Prophecy back in the last chapter of Dance. That prophecy has end game written all over it. You saw something similar to it happen in the House of the Undying, then it pops up again in Dance you see some things that sort of look like they could be part of it. But there is not really much to them.

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I don't think so, Martin brought that Prophecy back in the last chapter of Dance. That prophecy has end game written all over it. You saw something similar to it happen in the House of the Undying, then it pops up again in Dance you see some things that sort of look like they could be part of it. But there is not really much to them.

Well he said we won't see Asshai except maybe in flashbacks. I'm pretty sure that was the original meaning of "pass beneath the shadow."

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Well he said we won't see Asshai except maybe in flashbacks. I'm pretty sure that was the original meaning of "pass beneath the shadow."

Maybe you are just suppose to think that. Dany says that right when she hears it, "she wants me to go to Asshai." Martin gave you a prophecy and the actual answer to it, in the most literal terms possible in the same sentence? That has never been his MO, Quaithe also never tells her to do that, Dany assumes that, but she asks is what will I find in Asshai. The truth. She never actually says she should go there.

I could go into detail about it but it's not the proper place for it. Read the Undying again follow her foot steps, and remember cycles repeat. North and south are up and down. Think of the undying as a sort of miniature scale of what is to come.

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