Jump to content

R+L=J v.139


BearQueen87

Recommended Posts

Good. I suppose they banned him for the leaked ep stuff, but I wouldn't mind seeing a little more discipline for the various forms of trolling, especially by newer members. I've wanted to call someone on here an asshole, or worse, plenty of times.

One of the things I did before I signed up and started posting was to lurk for a while and get a feel for the atmosphere here. I finally decided to join in the discussions once I realized that the level of discourse was pretty reasonable and respectful.

I agree. Not to mention very hurtful personal attacks/insults.

On a brighter note, it seems that for Bryan Cogman there is definitely a secret about Jon's parentage :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark - and she wasn't exactly an introvert Stark. She, Brandon, and Arya have/had the so-called 'wolf blood' which is a way to describe hotheaded and passionate Starks. Not all the Starks are as cold and distant as Ned. So we should expect Jon to be a little more lively if he had inherited character traits from his mother



On the other hand: The whole stuff seems to run in the Stark in general - Ned didn't have the wolf blood either, but Arya had, so it can skip a generation or two.



But this only goes if we assume Jon is introvert by nature, not due to his upbringing. Jon clearly lacks Rhaegar's melancholy, though, as well as his talent for music.



As to the 'cave':



I was speaking figuratively. The 'cave' stands for Jon/Ygritte's desire to stay together which only could work if they left everybody else. Rhaegar and Lyanna's 'cave' would not only be the tower but the fact that they stayed away from court and war until it was way too late. If we compare Rhaegar to Jon in that regard I'd say Rhaegar came back to KL after the Magnar had attacked and destroyed Castle Black.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tend to disagree on Jon not having book Rhaegars traits.



As described physically,(and I've seen him in the graphics), his features are more acquiline than those of the Stark males, even with Tully blood. Almost the difference between the earthy look of the Tudors and the more "other wordly" look of the Plantaganets.



Also, the more subtle behaviors of Jon, I mean, both Jon and Rhaegar are not likely to be the life of the party, and while his beserker defense of Sam brings to mind possibly the same rage as Lyanna and Brandon,(especially when Lyanna defended Howland), it also brings to mind "waking the dragon," which both Dany and Viserys use to describe their terrible anger.



(Another reason I think we see the historical parallels between the Plantaganets and the fictional Taragaryens is the legendary, almost demonic anger of Plantaganet rage, to the point some of them were reported to have fell to the ground and "chewed at the rushes).



I think you do tend to see more of a cold rage with the Starks, and I would say even Brandon, because his behavior over Lyanna could also have been more born of panic as much as temper. We don't know what Brandon would have been like say planning an attack on an enemy. In that, he might have been quite cold, predatory, and unemotional.


We don't actually see it much in Arya other than Joffrey and that seems as much impetuous as angry, (and that same impetuousness could be an element of the wolfs blood which might have also led to Lyannas evolution into tKotLT).


Later we see Aryas anger manifest in rather a more cold, methodic, "list-making" anger.



So, that beserker, blind rage we see later in Jon I don't think necessarily comes from the mother, but from the fathers side, and GRRM did a good, detailed breakdown on the nature of fire and ice, though I would agree the idea of "the wolfs blood" is the difference between the Starks going from "Vulcans to Romulans." :P



In the media piece that Pascal did on the history of the Martells, he remarks on Lyanna as "a pale girl from the north with ice in her veins like all her people." (I wonder what made Oberyn say that)?



So two very contradictory images.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alia,



well, the problem is that we never have seen Rhaegar in life, nor ever been watched his emotions/feelings close-hand. All of Jon's 'Rhaegar character traits' could be social stuff he acquired from emulating Ned. And since we don't really know Rhaegar - and most likely will never know him - all we have are the projections and pictures various people have of him. Some are more and some less reliable.



The wolf-blooded Starks (Lyanna, Brandon, Arya) really seem to be more passionate and hotheaded than the icy Starks (Ned, Jon). Arya is eventually forced/conditioned into behaving cautiously due to her terrible war traumas. Had Arya been raised as a proper (and spoiled) noblewoman I'd expect to react angry to every imagined and real slight, physically chastising servants/people who displeased her, and generally taking everything she wanted.



Lyanna obviously did not give a damn about being a 'proper little lady' and apparently forced Benjen to train her in arms.



Brandon is clearly a careless not a calculating guy. And Rhaegar was supposed to 'come out and die', remember? That's rage, not panic/fear.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

LV



I respectfully disagree.



Brandon:



While I don't necessarily think he was as all round great guy, I do think speculate that he loved his sister and that they were close, maybe not in the tender way that she is with Ned, but certainly loved by her brother.


A man being bred for leadership as Brandon certainly was, (TV Cersei remarks upon this), might have had personality traits that could be dangerous in war if not controlled, so I would be very surprised if the first order of training for Brandon was "anger management," and it might have been largely successful- until his achilles heel, Lyanna, or any of his family was threatened.


(As a child, on a trip to visit my great-great aunt in a nursing home, I got away from my dad and he became hysterical. Needless to say, when he finally found me, he was ready to kill me).



According to the times, a man was held responsible for the the dishonor of a woman, which is why Brandon called upon the person he held responsible. He went there seeking justice. And if the WB is to be believed, Brandons behavior is consistent.



Brandons, (and Neds), reactions at Harrenhal where they saw the crowning as an insult+Brandons running off to KL and challenging Rhaegar = outrage, and justifiably so and is consistent with the notion of insult/damage done to his sister.




Lyanna/Arya:



I agree that there is a certain selfishness in the thinking that they could have the rights, (and we are talking about a pseudo-medieval time period), that even Queen Rhaella herself did not have in terms of making their own choices. Who were they to think that they could eshew the life that was to be every womans destiny at that time unless they took the veil?


It was their responsibility to marry and forge powerful alliances and breed heirs to make claims to other families lands and increase their power, not run off to the city for adventure.


Lyanna, as the ONLY daughter could never have a choice, so wanting one takes her out of the norm for the times.




However, the book speaks of Jons dreams of his beautiful mother with kind eyes. We also see what gets Arya into trouble is her defense of a butchers boy, (not the right kind of friend for a noble girl), the same way that Lyanna takes up for Howland Reed, and sees his treatment as an injustice, so while for the time, their behavior are not that of the dutiful, submissive daughter, they do what they do because it was right, and in GRRM's world, it gets them in trouble when they deviate from societys mores.



Arya also is smart enough to pick her battles, and we have seen her use all kinds of avenues to get what she wants, including playing "the lady card" to get back into KL, to even sex. or the promise of it as in the Mercy chapter.



But, Arya makes her own "pack" wherever she goes, and not just small folk, but very questionable folk. She sat at Neds table when he entertained a different man everynight, (probably not all noble born), as he believed these men needed to know why they were fighting for you.



As for Lyannas training, we see the very martial Maege Mormont, a.k.a. "the She-Bear," who inherited her nephews title after Jorah went into exile, and whose presence seems to be accepted by the men, so such may not be unusual in the north. If we look at Neds statement about Lyanna having carried a sword if his lord father had allowed it, we can also speculate that many other northern fathers might have, and the only reason Rickard did not, or stopped her, was because she would not fit in in southern culture.



(The case of Maege is interesting because she too is described as "stubborn, short-tempered and willful." It seems to be suggested that the father/husband of her children might have been of a lower class, therefore, they take the mothers surname, as would have also been the case of Bael the Bards son with the Stark daughter), so marrying lower may not be a stigma, thus class differences not as extreme, which in harsher climates where it takes everyone to survive, this would be consistent.



We just don't know enough about aristocratic, northern culture to absolutely determine just what expectations, thus not entitlements, noble girls would have.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jon has Rhaegar's personality, his mother's looks and both of their talents.

I think that's a pretty apt way to put it.

(also, MAN, but the forum either hates me or hates life. This the first time I've been able to get on in like 24 hours)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alia,



without disagreement there isn't any fun ;-).



Brandon:



I actually think that man wasn't a very sympathetic person. He supposedly took what he wanted, entertained lovers, and was apparently very possessive of his sister in a patriarchal/mucho way. We should make no mistake. The Starks as a whole seem to be concerned about the honor of their house not the well-being of Lyanna - which means that the actions leading up to the rebellion are essentially motivated by the line of thought that leads in certain real world (sub-)cultures to honor-killings and the like.



And then there are the hints that Brandon may have been the one who seduced/dishonored/raped Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal and fathered her stillborn daughter. Not a nice guy.



I'd agree that Brandon was the spoiled and pampered 'leader child', the one who was supposed to inherit, but that should be only a part of the thing as we have the wolf blood stuff.



Lyanna/Arya:



Again, Arya's path is shaped by her experiences. That she ends up using her the promise of sex to kill is an outgrowth of her training as a Faceless Girl as his her cold and calculating approach to life and death (and murder). The tomboy Arya we meet in AGoT is very outspoken, hot-headed and determined. Her natural reaction is to lash out when she feels hurt or insulted, and my guess is that this would have intensified if she had been raised to womanhood as the daughter of a great lord and the Hand of the King. Lyanna effectively embodies the type of person Arya would have grown into had her childhood not been cut short. And what we have seen of Lyanna is that she was both a very demanding, controlling, and decisive person - both in the godswood vision with Benjen as well as in the story of the Knight of the Loving Tree.



As to Northern women in general:



The Bear Islanders are established as freaky exceptions. They had to become warriors to defend themselves and their homes while the men were off fishing due to the Ironborn attacks. Alysane Mormont notes that they have not done this by choice and feel uncomfortable with it just as Brienne is. This does not suggest that Northern women are usually allowed or encouraged to fight. If that was the case - i.e. if there were more for gender equality - there would have been at least one Queen in the North/Ruling Lady of Winterfell.



I imagine there were some rather fierce Stark women in the past but not during the lifetime of Lord Rickard or else he would have been more open to the idea - as Ned was who knew Lyanna.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's a pretty apt way to put it.

(also, MAN, but the forum either hates me or hates life. This the first time I've been able to get on in like 24 hours)

No, I've almost given up on it.

It takes more time to get on than my lunch time permits.

Alia,

without disagreement there isn't any fun ;-).

Well, you are on your way to making someone a good husband one day. :laugh:

On the rest:

I really enjoy reading your stuff, and you know your stuff regarding the material, what I would say however, that while the backdrop is indeed expansive, the characters that are just as complicated.

Martin has said he is not interested in one-dimensional characters, particularly, good vs. evil. white hats vs. black hats. He has deliberately written very grey characters, bad characters that have their moments of grace, and good characters that have their moments of shame, which is why I tread very carefully with the notion of "absolutes."

I agree the Starks backstory, (if we ever get it), will likely be every bit as freaky, scary and the perfect creeped out bookend to the Targaryens, and I embrace that, but as we see from Lady Barb in her conversation with Theon whom she recognizes as wishing to have been part of that "pack," that Martin seems to have written the Starks as a stand-out family in terms of genuine love and affection, without some of the dysfunction that plague other families.

While Brandon might not have made a great boyfriend of husband, especially to a wife he didn't love, I don't think he raped anyone anymore than Oberyn, (a man not necessarily kind to women or anyone else), did, but took what was offered, and as many ambitious fathers put their daughters forward in the hopes of an alliance with the Starks until that Maester that Barb speaks of started to meddle.

But, not making the best, or most faithful lover doesn't mean he couldn't love, or be genuinely afraid for the fate of his sister, because it was actually for his father to call out the Targaryens, not Brandon to usurp that role, which is why I suspect he acted on panic and fear.

As to the North, we don't have enough information to determine just what the exact roles of women were, and the Mormonts were accepted by Robb and his men, and Maege inherited her nephews title rather than it go to another male family member. In climes as harsh as the north, the distinctions between class, and gender are more fluid because it literally takes the efforts of everyone to survive, even children old enough to walk.

Okay, now, I have to go and do something actually work related............ :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's a pretty apt way to put it.

(also, MAN, but the forum either hates me or hates life. This the first time I've been able to get on in like 24 hours)

Yeah, it's driving me absolutely nuts. It's bad enough search is disabled, but I can't stand writing out a reply only to get a 503 error page. I've actually taken to copying my entire reply before I hit post jic that happens, because I hate losing my work.

Also, love your new avatar :) I almost didn't recognize you at first XD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's driving me absolutely nuts. It's bad enough search is disabled, but I can't stand writing out a reply only to get a 503 error page. I've actually taken to copying my entire reply before I hit post jic that happens, because I hate losing my work.

Also, love your new avatar :) I almost didn't recognize you at first XD

Yes, I copy my replies as well (when I remember to do it) for the same reason. And I also miss the "stars" for threads that I have posted to. It makes it harder to look for threads I am interested in that have new posts to it.

As to the new Avatar -- YES (I tend to find it a little confusing when someone has an avatar with a picture of someone of the other gender like the old one), but I recognized her "voice" immediately so even with the new Avatar, I would know my BQ87 anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jon has Rhaegar's personality, his mother's looks and both of their talents.

I must have missed the chapter where Jon received his first harp & proved to be a natural musician...

& the chapter where Jon was reading books all the time...

& the chapters here Jon was winning Joust after Joust...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must have missed the chapter where Jon received his first harp & proved to be a natural musician...

Swordfighting, horsemanship, inspiring love in your friends, and running off with a woman you stole seem to be the big ones.

Yeah, it's driving me absolutely nuts. It's bad enough search is disabled, but I can't stand writing out a reply only to get a 503 error page. I've actually taken to copying my entire reply before I hit post jic that happens, because I hate losing my work.

Also, love your new avatar :) I almost didn't recognize you at first XD

What gets me is the gray topic highlight in the subforum when I was the last to post, as if I somehow didn't read my own comment. I much prefer the whited-out highlight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I copy my replies as well (when I remember to do it) for the same reason. And I also miss the "stars" for threads that I have posted to. It makes it harder to look for threads I am interested in that have new posts to it.

As to the new Avatar -- YES (I tend to find it a little confusing when someone has an avatar with a picture of someone of the other gender like the old one), but I recognized her "voice" immediately so even with the new Avatar, I would know my BQ87 anywhere.

I try to change my avatars regularly...as well as my signature and stuff. I get tired of the same old thing after a while, although my favorite avatars tend to stay on longer than others.

Although I would say most of them end up being 'male', simply because I gravitate towards those characters...of course, I'm female, myself, and I like female characters. Just how I am, I guess ^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd also point out that the more you are nearing the end, the more dificult the writing becomes.- everything must fit, no lose ends... the liberty that you were once able to take is no longer there. And, if you've been toying with the story too long in your head, your brain inevitably starts craving for novelty - it's not like you lose interest, it's just that new plot bunnies go rampant and there is often no other way to get rid of them but to write them down.

Yeah I agree. I just felt that the last two books which took 5ish years each to come out were full of plot bunnies running every which way. They're interesting as side novels, not as main entries into the series. This would suggest to me that Martin isn't interested in his original characters/story as much but still likes the world. So he's following new characters in attempt to freshen it up for himself. But arguably these new plots (such as Brienne roaming Westeros) might be important to the end game of the story. But I seriously doubt they were necessary.

Anyways, this is a divergence from the main thread topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar seems to have had broader interests and may have been smarter than Jon Snow. Jon reveals a striking ignorance at times when he talks about books and lore. That could be due to his relative youth but I imagine the education he got in Winterfell was not exactly putting much weight on the subtler arts of life.



And he completely failed to inspire loyalty in those he closest to him - which we see at the end of ADwD. Not to mention that Rhaegar's personal charisma did not seem to have been that great compared to a real people person like Robert. What seems to have drawn people to him was his position as well as the visible contrast between him and Aerys in the latter's later years. Rhaegar wasn't as a Daemon Blackfyre, it seems - that is, a great knight who really enjoyed knighthood and inspired many other people into following him, personally.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar seems to have had broader interests and may have been smarter than Jon Snow. Jon reveals a striking ignorance at times when he talks about books and lore. That could be due to his relative youth but I imagine the education he got in Winterfell was not exactly putting much weight on the subtler arts of life.

And he completely failed to inspire loyalty in those he closest to him - which we see at the end of ADwD. Not to mention that Rhaegar's personal charisma did not seem to have been that great compared to a real people person like Robert. What seems to have drawn people to him was his position as well as the visible contrast between him and Aerys in the latter's later years. Rhaegar wasn't as a Daemon Blackfyre, it seems - that is, a great knight who really enjoyed knighthood and inspired many other people into following him, personally.

Right. Because the full hall of people, Wildlings and brothers alike, cheering for him, supporting for him, doesn't carry nearly the same weight as 3 people acting on their own. Yup, no one loved him.

Or am I remembering the scene wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar seems to have had broader interests and may have been smarter than Jon Snow. Jon reveals a striking ignorance at times when he talks about books and lore. That could be due to his relative youth but I imagine the education he got in Winterfell was not exactly putting much weight on the subtler arts of life.

Jon is far from being a logical character, capable of the kind of reason that most would identify with a person of intelligence... A prime example is when he interrogates Gilly about Craster's sacrifices... Jon not only asked incredibly bad questions, but also jumped to conclusions that made no sense at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, they liked him. But not those closest to him. Not the elite of the Night's Watch. Had he been smart he would not have sent those black brothers away who were the most loyal to him. He should have either replaced the old guard of the NW with his own men or he should have done a better job of convincing them.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, they liked him. But not those closest to him. Not the elite of the Night's Watch. Had he been smart he would not have sent those black brothers away who were the most loyal to him. He should have either replaced the old guard of the NW with his own men or he should have done a better job of convincing them.

That comes from the 20/20 hindsight of the readers. A leader who is trying to unite the NW to repel the incoming invasion is not going to show favoritism to his friends as that will divide the brotherhood even more. There is the idea of keeping your enemies within your sight. Allowing them to stage dissension elsewhere was not something a leader would want.

Jon's issue was that he underestimated the extent that these men would betray him. A Julius Caesar type assassination was not a possibility he had considered. Speaking of which, has anyone else reviewed the similarity between the two assassinations? I guess it doesn't work because Jon isn't going to die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...