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R+L=J v.139


BearQueen87

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Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. - AGoT, Eddard XV

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. - ACoK, Theon V

There's a possible contrast here. Rhaegar in red and black, Lyanna in blue and white. White and black are real life opposites, while red and blue are thematic opposites in ASoIaF, so the grouping of these four colors caught my eye, because they've been grouped elsewhere. Specifically, in Bran and Dany's chapters, except that it's red and white vs. black and blue; e.g., weirwoods vs. the trees the warlocks make shade of the evening from, which has black bark and blue leaves. There's more to it, but you get the idea.

But then I recalled, if we go back to Ned's first chapter we see some different color imagery around Lyanna, and now that I think about it, I doubt it's an accident.

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

The key line here is: "in a room that smelled of blood and roses." Given what we know, that should suggest the colors red and blue. But when Lyanna dies she lets go of the rose petals, and they're no longer blue, they're black. So, "in a room that smelled of blood and roses" actually indicates red and black; Targaryen colors.

I think the main point is another R+L=J hint. Beyond that, there's a little room for speculation. Does it mean that Lyanna died as a Targaryen, having married Rhaegar? It could. It might also mean that she died because she gave birth to a Targaryen. Or maybe a combination of both.

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I did not say Jon Snow was stupid in general, I said that he showed a remarkable disinterest in scholarly stuff and the more subtle things in life - say, for instance, when discussing the NW archives with Sam, or when history comes up in general. He is not stupid but does not show a sort of general greatness in every possible field like Rhaegar apparently did.



As to his political failure as a NW leader:



He clearly failed to see or understand the convictions of his own officers. We see how divided the Watch still is when Jon executes Janos Slynt. Back then he still has the sense to surround himself with people he can trust, yet he sends all of them away later on the garrison the other castles and appoints controversial people (Satin and Leathers, for instance) to fill in for them. This was not a good way to win him more friends in the old guard of the NW. Yet as Lord Commander it would have been his choice to name new men to the influential offices. We don't know how many friends Bowen Marsh has at the NW but I imagine quite a lot. He would not have acted against Jon had he not had a lot of supporters backing him. And allowing him to continue as Lord Steward allowed Marsh to use his official position to recruit more men against Jon Snow. He could not have done that as commander of one of the abandoned castles, obviously.



Bowen Marsh clearly is a Brutus-type character (at least the literary Brutus). He does not want to kill Jon but does it anyway to save the NW. And it may very well turn out to be that this move did save the NW as both the ranging to Hardhome as well as the march to Winterfell won't happen now.



Jon certainly was right that the Others intend to turn all the wildlings at Hardhome into wights to fill their ranks but the idea that a NW party going there overland could actually reach or save them in time is overly optimistic if you ask me. The Others should already have enough wights to destroy such a ranging party if they can take on all the wildlings at Hardhome.



And the march to Winterfell was treason, it is really as simple as that. The NW guards the realms of men, they do not attack them.



George can now rip apart everything Jon built in a hard built if there are open hostilities between the NW and the Watch. Once blood flows I doubt there is any chance that the two sides make peace again afterwards, especially if hostages are slain in the process. The NW has the hostages of the wildlings - if Marsh controls them I imagine the wildlings won't dare avenge Jon Snow. And if Marsh had more support among the NW than people think he has then it is unlikely that the NW is going to avenge Jon Snow, either. Not to mention that a lot of Jon's friends aren't in CB but in other castles, and Marsh may already control the rookery.


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Very nicely spotted J.Star!






I did not say Jon Snow was stupid in general, I said that he showed a remarkable disinterest in scholarly stuff and the more subtle things in life - say, for instance, when discussing the NW archives with Sam, or when history comes up in general. He is not stupid but does not show a sort of general greatness in every possible field like Rhaegar apparently did.





Disagree. Not being interesting in something = /= not showing a general greatness in that field.



We know from either a Jon chapter or a Cat chapter (honestly can't remember right now) that Jon was better at some of those academic pursuits than Robb. The fact that he's dismissive of Sam in AFFC for Sam is trying to give him information about the history of the NW and such doesn't show that Jon wouldn't excel as a scholar, but rather that Jon knows there is something more important to be talked about and while the history might be fascinating, the Ice Zombies currently pose a greater threat. And I think that is very Rhaegar.



Rhaegar had more time to actively pursue those academic fields because, while he was concerned with prophecy and such, he wasn't actually staring down an eternal winter and Others rising. He was still safely tucked away in KL or on DS. He had the leisure to do what Jon does not because he and the NW are running out of time.





He clearly failed to see or understand the convictions of his own officers.




No, I think Jon both sees and understands the convictions of his own officers. He just thinks his ways are better given what is coming for them, the Wildlings, and the whole Planteos.


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We know from either a Jon chapter or a Cat chapter (honestly can't remember right now) that Jon was better at some of those academic pursuits than Robb.

Jon chapter:

She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.

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During a re read of thrones I've read an interesting line I haven't seen on any theories before...

It's well documented that only 2 people survived the battle at the TOJ

HOWEVER in Eddard 1 agot page 40

(Ned telling Robert in winterfell crypts that about him being with her as she died.)

"THEY had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, howland reed, had taken her hand from his.

This states that someone else besides lyanna or the men in the conflict was there. I'm guessing ned/howland foun lyanna n Jon and ned asked for privacy.

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Do you really think Robb is a valid comparison to a Rhaegar? Jon had bested Robb in sums, but Robb had also bested Jon it's not an always thing there. Rhaegar bested people like Sam and Aemon with his intelligence, when he was like 8, he was prodigy. Rhaegar loved his harp more than anything, Jon has shown next to no intrest in music. Rhaegar was a very skilled warrior, but he never cared for it, he did it because he had to. Jon is a decent warrior, but he loves it, he loves the yard.

Jon is not an avid reader, he is not into music, he does not walk around crying and composing songs. Waking the dragon? Jon has an attitude but he really does not have a bad temper. Don't wake the dragon simply means don't make me angry. It's not the hulk, when Targs get upset they do not transform into super beings. Half the characters in the books have bad tempers. And half Targs in the book didn't have bad tempers. The good King and Queen were not running around every where going fire and blood, fire and blood. One of them is a Jesus metaphore, I mean the most non angry person in Westeros history was a Targ. Is Arya Targ because she has a nasty Temper. Was that Jon's wolf blood making him angry or his Dragon blood making him angry, those are metaphors, it means you have a temper. You don't have to be a Stark or a Targ to have a temper. Beware the Griffin' rage and the hoouds howl, the might Lion stirs within me. People have tempers it's the dark ages.

Jon takes after Ned and his mother more than anything, why? Probably because Ned raised him and his mother still counts in his DNA. I don't know how Jon takes after Rhaegar, because we don't know Rhaegar other than he was this prodigy genius musician, who loved to read and compose, and sing, and was very skilled at arms but had no love for it. Do you know where wake the Dragon comes from? Viserys, do we ever have mention of Rhaegar ever saying that? That is where Dany picked it up, because he used to say that to her. The boy who looks like a Stark, and acts like Ned Stark, and fights like a Stark, and runs around with Dire wolf the sigil of House Stark, and serves the Wall like many Starks has, and lives in the North like the other Starks and runs around saying the Stark words winter is coming, and was raised by a Stark in the ancestral seat of House Stark, does in fact take after that part of his family.

Maybe Rhaegar used to flex his sword hand all the time, I don't know. Maybe Rhaegar like Corn and so the Raven takes after him. Jon likes Pizza and Rhaegar once had a piece of Pizza so they are like total twins. Because nobody else likes Pizza, it's a targ only thing like Tempers, or intelligence. Everyone else has no temper and is stupid.

Duitful? Single minded? Jon has actually attempted to break his Duty multiple times. Jon is not ssingle minded, if he was he would not have been marching off to fight Ramsey. In fact Jon's thought indicate anything but being single minded, he constantly has to much on his mind.

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BQ87,



Rhaegar could have been a real wonder child as he is described as being good at everything he did, including physical stuff. This is not the case with Jon Snow.



Had Jon been a 'little Rhaegar' I'd expect showing a lot of talent, to be wise beyond his years and stuff like that, yet all the Stark children are very much children in AGoT. Jon shows more promise than Robb, I agree there (best documented in the first Bran chapter when Jon is more perceptive than Robb), but nothing suggests that he was a genius. The Catelyn stuff is more ambiguous - she is pissed when Jon, who looks more like Ned than her sons, bests Robb in their lessons, yet it is nowhere stated that Jon always bested Robb.



Jon is not only dismissive of Sam's knowledge he is also not showing any sign to further investigate the savior story of Azor Ahai or trying to dig into both the knowledge and the powers Melisandre possesses.



He shows a good hand for politics when dealing with his equals - Stannis, Alys Karstark, Tormund, Val, etc. - but he is not as successful with the NW. If the a hero/savior cannot see the blades at his throat - and Melisandre gave him pretty good hints - then he may die before he can do anything great. Which means that he won't be a great hero/savior at all, no?



JS,



color stuff:



To really determine whether those are conscious parallels we would have to know whether George put them in there deliberately to illustrate something. If we go with Jon having born some days before Ned's arrival the blood in the 'bed of blood' should have been brown rather than black, so the black rose pedals are most likely not a conscious color parallel. But the fact that Lyanna seems to cling to (winter) roses seems to be a pretty big hint to the crowning of Harrenhal.



If we ask ourselves what the hell Lyanna was doing with those roses there - or who had given her to them - we could actually speculate whether it is actually the crown of winter roses from Harrenhal as it is very unlikely that there were winter roses growing at or near the tower. If Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar at Harrenhal she may have kept the crown as a token of their love all this time.



General Targaryen traits:



Hotheadedness isn't a trait many Targaryens show. 'Waking the dragon' is just a phrase used by Viserys as far as I realize. There are three Targaryens with sadistic tendencies - Maegor the Cruel, Prince Daemon, and Aerion Brightflame - and Prince Aemond was rash and impatient (and stupid), but this may have to do more with his youth than his character.



Targaryens being 'royally wroth' seems to be part of being the king/heir. Being raised to believe to be special because you are destined to rule etc. is not exactly a good way to form a character. Take Joffrey, for instance. There is no hint that he is more than the usual schoolyard bully dialed up to royal proportions. Sansa witnessed his humiliation at Arya's hand, and her father wanted to steal his throne. Now he is getting even with her.



Many Targaryens seem to be weirdos in the solitary/non-people person way:



- Aegon I, Visenya, Maegor, Aegon III, Aerys I, Maekar I, and Rhaegar belong to that category.


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Do you really think Robb is a valid comparison to a Rhaegar? Jon had bested Robb in sums, but Robb had also bested Jon it's not an always thing there. Rhaegar bested people like Sam and Aemon with his intelligence, when he was like 8, he was prodigy. Rhaegar loved his harp more than anything, Jon has shown next to no intrest in music. Rhaegar was a very skilled warrior, but he never cared for it, he did it because he had to. Jon is a decent warrior, but he loves it, he loves the yard.

Jon is not an avid reader, he is not into music, he does not walk around crying and composing songs. Waking the dragon? Jon has an attitude but he really does not have a bad temper. Don't wake the dragon simply means don't make me angry. It's not the hulk, when Targs get upset they do not transform into super beings. Half the characters in the books have bad tempers. And half Targs in the book didn't have bad tempers. The good King and Queen were not running around every where going fire and blood, fire and blood. One of them is a Jesus metaphore, I mean the most non angry person in Westeros history was a Targ. Is Arya Targ because she has a nasty Temper. Was that Jon's wolf blood making him angry or his Dragon blood making him angry, those are metaphors, it means you have a temper. You don't have to be a Stark or a Targ to have a temper. Beware the Griffin' rage and the hoouds howl, the might Lion stirs within me. People have tempers it's the dark ages.

Jon takes after Ned and his mother more than anything, why? Probably because Ned raised him and his mother still counts in his DNA. I don't know how Jon takes after Rhaegar, because we don't know Rhaegar other than he was this prodigy genius musician, who loved to read and compose, and sing, and was very skilled at arms but had no love for it. Do you know where wake the Dragon comes from? Viserys, do we ever have mention of Rhaegar ever saying that? That is where Dany picked it up, because he used to say that to her. The boy who looks like a Stark, and acts like Ned Stark, and fights like a Stark, and runs around with Dire wolf the sigil of House Stark, and serves the Wall like many Starks has, and lives in the North like the other Starks and runs around saying the Stark words winter is coming, and was raised by a Stark in the ancestral seat of House Stark, does in fact take after that part of his family.

Maybe Rhaegar used to flex his sword hand all the time, I don't know. Maybe Rhaegar like Corn and so the Raven takes after him. Jon likes Pizza and Rhaegar once had a piece of Pizza so they are like total twins. Because nobody else likes Pizza, it's a targ only thing like Tempers, or intelligence. Everyone else has no temper and is stupid.

Duitful? Single minded? Jon has actually attempted to break his Duty multiple times. Jon is not ssingle minded, if he was he would not have been marching off to fight Ramsey. In fact Jon's thought indicate anything but being single minded, he constantly has to much on his mind.

Your post seemed to go every which way. Your point was that Ned raised him so obviously many of the traits we see are more likely from Ned. Your other point is we don't really know Rhaegar that well (or even Lyanna for that matter besides Ned's description of "wolf's blood") to make factual statements about Jon being like either of them.

If I recall the comparisons:

1.) Melancholy

2.) Naturally Good at everything

3.) Idealistic?

4.) Duty as you pointed out. Rheagar also failed at this as he ran off with Lyanna.

5.) Was Rhaegar described as single minded? His actions seem to suggest he was not.

I'm sure there are more. But yes considering Rhaegar is a character we have limited information on (same with Lyanna) it is hard to state with certainty that Jon has some of their qualities.

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Many Targaryens seem to be weirdos in the solitary/non-people person way:

- Aegon I, Visenya, Maegor, Aegon III, Aerys I, Maekar I, and Rhaegar belong to that category.

The word that comes to mind is 'sullen'. As in sullen squire (Egg, several instances) and sullen boy (Jon, etiam) ;)

Interesting enough, it is Jon's great-great-great uncle, Maester Aemon, who praises and brings to the reader's attention his intelligence. Quite a reliable judge of character, isn't he?

Your mind is as deft as your blade
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During a re read of thrones I've read an interesting line I haven't seen on any theories before...

It's well documented that only 2 people survived the battle at the TOJ

HOWEVER in Eddard 1 agot page 40

(Ned telling Robert in winterfell crypts that about him being with her as she died.)

"THEY had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, howland reed, had taken her hand from his.

This states that someone else besides lyanna or the men in the conflict was there. I'm guessing ned/howland foun lyanna n Jon and ned asked for privacy.

Yes, this point has been observed. The majority view seems to be that likely there were other servants at ToJ and the reference to "they" is a reference to those servants (in addition to Reed).

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Very nicely spotted J.Star!

Thanks. :cheers:

JS,

color stuff:

To really determine whether those are conscious parallels we would have to know whether George put them in there deliberately to illustrate something. If we go with Jon having born some days before Ned's arrival the blood in the 'bed of blood' should have been brown rather than black, so the black rose pedals are most likely not a conscious color parallel. But the fact that Lyanna seems to cling to (winter) roses seems to be a pretty big hint to the crowning of Harrenhal.

If we ask ourselves what the hell Lyanna was doing with those roses there - or who had given her to them - we could actually speculate whether it is actually the crown of winter roses from Harrenhal as it is very unlikely that there were winter roses growing at or near the tower. If Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar at Harrenhal she may have kept the crown as a token of their love all this time.

Ned is describing the smell of the room. He doesn't say what it looks like. That is left to our imagination. The default color of blood is red, so we should stick with that unless we're given a reason not to. To address your point, while some of Lyanna's bloody sheets would have been old, she might still be bleeding. Point, counterpoint, so it's a wash. Moving on. Then we find out that the rose petals Lyanna had been holding onto were black. I just can't believe it's a coincidence that the two items Ned described are the colors of House Targaryen. Because if it is a coincidence, then GRRM accidentally hinted at something that is actually true, which would be pretty weird.

And fwiw, notice that "blood and roses" is book-ended by Promise me and Promise me, Ned. Which makes a lot of sense, since the promise revolves around Jon's true identity one way or the other.

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The Catelyn stuff is more ambiguous - she is pissed when Jon, who looks more like Ned than her sons, bests Robb in their lessons, yet it is nowhere stated that Jon always bested Robb..

Not to mention that wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Sansa, 3 years their junior, had actually been better than either of them at "letters"? Most un-Rhaegarlike of Jon ;).

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And Arya was better at sums than Sansa - does this now mean she may have also been better than Jon and thus is possibly Rhaegar's daughter ;-)?



Azor Ahai stuff:



If we go with Jon Snow as Azor Ahai - and I think pretty much no one does ;-) - who do you assume will be his Nissa Nissa if he indeed has to to kill a loved one to forge a literal magic sword to fight the darkness - I still find the idea hilarious that a sword will beat the Others as this seems just to be so ... small - and the dragons aren't, well, quite literal 'lightbringers'.



If we go with the original outline the best candidate for that would be, of course, Arya. I have to admit that I really would like to see that happening as it would take the series to a quite different level of cruelty and sadness. If people can believe Stannis may burn Shireen people should also begin believing that 'the real Azor Ahai' may also kill the person most dearest to him.



Daenerys has already sacrificed everyone she loved back in AGoT so there is a good chance she does not have to do it again - especially if the dragons are 'Lightbringer'.


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Jon isn't a Targaryen and he's dead.

OMG, I'm SHOCKED. You have really cleared things up for all of us in this thread...I guess we can cancel all future discussions on this, guys- this person has REALLY done their homework and there's nothing left for us to talk about.

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And Arya was better at sums than Sansa - does this now mean she may have also been better than Jon and thus is possibly Rhaegar's daughter ;-)?

Azor Ahai stuff:

If we go with Jon Snow as Azor Ahai - and I think pretty much no one does ;-) - who do you assume will be his Nissa Nissa if he indeed has to to kill a loved one to forge a literal magic sword to fight the darkness - I still find the idea hilarious that a sword will beat the Others as this seems just to be so ... small - and the dragons aren't, well, quite literal 'lightbringers'.

If we go with the original outline the best candidate for that would be, of course, Arya. I have to admit that I really would like to see that happening as it would take the series to a quite different level of cruelty and sadness. If people can believe Stannis may burn Shireen people should also begin believing that 'the real Azor Ahai' may also kill the person most dearest to him.

Daenerys has already sacrificed everyone she loved back in AGoT so there is a good chance she does not have to do it again - especially if the dragons are 'Lightbringer'.

No, it means they have their strengths and weaknesses.

What was Rhaegar doing at fourteen, and what did he command at sixteen/seventeen.

All leaders have their learning curves, and Jon is no different.

As I stated before, while I think Rhaegar was smart enough to see Cersies corruption, (and let's face it, she didn't hide it well),

he crowned Lyanna in front of his already northern-paranoid father and knighted the Mountain.

I think Jon and Rhaegar are two-for-two.

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