R+L=J v.139

[Mithras]

I believe Mithras is giving an example to show how TWOIAF and the book series work together, not apart.

Precisely. There are many things in the World Book that are known to the characters inside the main series but not mentioned yet because the plot didnot need them so far.

Moreover, Yandel might be sleeping in the next room of Sam. So, even the author of the book can take part in the main series to shed lights to extra stuff.

[BearQueen87]

Moreover, Yandel might be sleeping in the next room of Sam. So, even the author of the book can take part in the main series to shed lights to extra stuff.

Ooooooh. I haven't even thought of that. That might be fun.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Oh, I'm sure you can pick up rid-bits & interesting facts about side issues & unimportant history, etc... But if there is anything in there that is key to the endgame, then it will be properly introduced into the Book Series first...

It is very simple, The Book Series is a Stand Alone Series... It should not be difficult to understand this...

---

So, I think the information is useless, you think that TWOIAF is the key to unlocking GRRM's endgame... I GET IT, can we please talk about something else...

I think there is some confusion on the difference between being necessary to understand the plot (which WOIAF and other side books will not be) and being useful to help unravel certain mysteries and add additional insight into the text. Of course, something that is essential to the endgame will be revealed in the main series and reading WOIAF won't be necessary to follow the endgame plot. But side books, like WOIAF are intended to be consistent with the main books (while still using unreliable narrators so as not to give away too much) and can be used to help unravel certain mysteries. So the side books are both useful to help work through some of the mysteries and give additional backstory information.

Mithras already gave one example regarding Bloodraven. Perhaps GRRM will give more information about Bloodraven in Book 6 of the main series. Readers did not need to know about Bloodraven before Book 5 to follow the plot of the three-eyed crow. But the side books certainly gave more backstory for those who were interested. And readers of the side books were able to predict that Bloodraven would turn out to be the three-eyed crow (and many on this board accurately did prior to Book 5). Someone who only read the main books had no real way to make that prediction. So the side books served a purpose and while not essential, were "useful" additional information to understanding the main books.

Another example is closer to this thread's focus. As many on this thread know, I have been a strong proponent (with BearQueen87) that Rhaegar's actions regarding Lyanna were motivated, in part, by Rhaegar's realization that Lyanna would be ice to his fire and thus if they had a son he would be a song of ice and fire, personified -- i.e., the real prince that was promised (BQ87 sometimes uses the hashtag for this theory of #RhaegarChangedHisMind). Prior to WOIAF, one argument that those who disagreed with this theory made was that the Starks are not really "Ice" like the Targs are "Fire" and thus Rhaegar would not think this way. We had counter-arguments, but none that could convince the doubters.

Well, WOIAF revealed that a proposed marriage between Stark and Targ during DoD 1.0 was called the Pact of Ice and Fire. That information in WOIAF shut down that line of argument that was raised against our theory. While our theory still cannot be proven, WOIAF added a useful clue in favor of our theory (like other side books added clues about Bloodraven being the three-eyed crow) and shut down a line of argument against our theory. Since WOIAF, no one has (or credibly could) argue that the Starks are not identified as Ice to the Targs identity as Fire. So while WOIAF is not essential to understanding this plot development -- however it turns out in the end -- this side book has given the readers useful information in understanding the main books.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Probably not any real way to resolve, that is why I prefer bigger clues rather than a bit of punctuation,

Re-reading unexpectedly helped ;-):

"Lyanna was . . . fond of flowers."

Eddard I

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

Eddard XV

[Avalatis]

The special thing about Dany's dragons is that they are the only dragons in the world..

The point is that compared to previous dragons they are nothing special. The Azor Ahai prophecy/story was made long ago.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

well, the Pact of Ice and Fire is an interesting thing but the main argument against the assumption that Rhaegar consciously changed his mind yet again - shifting from Aegon to Lyanna's child as the new promised prince - also received a severe, and I think fatal, blow from the time line as it was laid out in TWoIaF. Aegon is only born after Harrenhal, and it is evident that Rhaegar's belief that the comet in the night of Aegon's conception heralded the coming of the promised prince could only be confirmed by the actual birth of a healthy male child he then named Aegon.

If we assume that Rhaegar was prophecy-interpretation-wise a sort of coherent character it is very unlikely that he only realized later on, after Aegon's birth, that Lyanna was ice to his fire if he first met (and fell in love with her/attracted to her) during Harrenhal while Elia was still pregnant with the child that would turn out to be Aegon or hadn't yet conceived Aegon (the latter is the more unlikely possibility).

After all, it would be very unlikely that he would try to conceive the promised prince with Elia if he realized/believed that it had to a/the Stark girl, and it simply makes no sense he would try it with Elia again after he had met Lyanna at Harrenhal or continue to believe that the child that was conceived in the night of the comet before Harrenhal - but born only months thereafter - could be the promised prince if he Lyanna offered a complete different 'interpretation angle' to the whole thing. If a smart person like Rhaegar would ever have reached the conclusion/interpretation you suggest, he would have reached it at Harrenhal not months later as it is a pretty easy and interpretation. Especially if it coincides and reinforces your own feelings and desires.

But this is not necessarily mean that the 'ice-and-fire connection' in Jon Snow could not turn out to be important. I'm just saying that I don't believe Rhaegar actually believed or intended to conceive yet another promised prince candidate with Lyanna. All we know for sure - reinforced ages ago by the vision in the House of the Undying - is that he chose Lyanna as the mother for the third presumed dragon head.

Yandel also gives us an interpretation on what 'World of Ice and Fire' and thus what 'fire' and 'ice' mean in 'magical sense' in that world. He states that the world knows fire since the Doom and ice since the Long Night, and this is how he creates his own title/name of 'a World of Ice and Fire'.

I really think we should see the dragons and the Others as the true protagonists and players in regards to what 'true fire' and 'true ice' means in those stories. Men apparently can mess with the elements with magic, but they can neither truly embody or represent fire or ice. The Targaryens aren't dragons (or better: Balrogs), and the Starks aren't Others. And if it turns out that the present-day Others - or the Others in general - were humans once then 'the Song of Ice and Fire' most likely will turn out be a name attributed to a huge coming world-changing battle battle/war between two factions of humans/races that heavily involves ice and fire magics.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

We have had this debate before, and I remain unconvinced by your logic. Before I address your point, however, I want to clarify that the point I made above remains true even if you are 100% correct. I was not directly laying out the case that Rhaegar changed his mind in that post. I simply stated that the argument that Rhaegar would never have thought of the Starks as Ice was dispelled by WOIAF. And I maintain whether Rhaegar changed his mind or not regarding who would be TPTWP, the argument that he would have no reason to think of the Starks as Ice is simply not a valid point of attack after WOIAF and the mention of the Pact of Ice and Fire. The theory might be wrong for other reasons (such as you argue), but that line of attack was dismissed by WOIAF.

Now you make a separate line of attack -- based on the timeline. I think we knew the basics of this timeline even before WOIAF, but I am not sure it matters. My point is that I don't think Rhaegar would have thought of Lyanna being Ice to his Fire after Harrenhal because at that time Rhaegar did not know that Elia could not have children. I am not sure why you think the timeline is a big deal. I think it is clear, no matter the time line, that Rhaegar does not decide to have a third child with Lyanna until after he finds out that Elia could not provide the third head of the dragon. My position has always been that only after Rhaegar is told that Elia would not provide the third head would Rhaegar ever consider having a child with another woman. Once he realizes that he must have a child with another woman, and he starts to focus on Lyanna, Rhaegar would make the Ice/Fire connection.

It really takes no time at all to come to this conclusion. But it takes certain events happening. It takes realizing that if Elia cannot have a third chlid-- and it takes Rhaegar deciding that he is going to have a third child with Lyanna. Only after those two events occur would it ever occur to Rhaegar that a child with Lyanna would be a combination of Ice and Fire. At Harrenhal, any consideration that Rhaegar would have a child with Lyanna was so far from anything he would have considered at that time, that the Ice/Fire connection would never have entered his mind then. Once he thinks to turn to Lyanna for the third child, the Ice/Fire connection would become immediately obvious. So your "time line" evidence has no bearing (IMHO) regarding whether Rhaegar eventually realized that Lyanna was Ice to his Fire, and thus their child would embody the song of ice and fire. At Harrenhal and at the time of the HotU vision, the necessary events for Rhaegar to make this conclusion (Elia unable to have a child and Rhaegar deciding to turn to Lyanna for the third head) would not have happened yet. Once they occur, however, no additional time is needed for Rhaegar to make the Ice/Fire connection. The logic would become obvious fairly quickly.

As far as your mystical vision of Others and Dragons being ice and fire, and people not being ice or fire -- those points are completely irrelevant. Certainly the Pact of Ice and Fire refered to people and we have no reason to believe Rhaegar would not see it that way. I think it is clear that from the reader's point of view, ASOIAF will have many meanings. You describe one of them. I think Jon, clearly, is another one. In its most basic form, "A Song of Ice and Fire" simply will be the tale of this period of time in which forces of ice and fire came together. I am sure there are other meanings as well. I think anyone who thinks it has only one meaning is missing what GRRM does regarding these symbols -- the important ones almost always have multiple meanings.

[Avalatis]

At Harrenhal, any consideration that Rhaegar would have a child with Lyanna was so far from anything he would have considered at that time, that the Ice/Fire connection would never have entered his mind then

I find this interesting. But I think a lot of people assume Rhaegar had a plan regarding Lyanna as he gave the crown of roses to her. If he felt that Elia was sufficient to bear him his 3 children at this point in the story, why would he be going out of his way to insult his wife (the mother of the three heads)? Is this because he was over taken by Lyanna's beauty and there was no plan to crown her before hand?

This doesn't necessarily mean he had made the Ice and Fire connection at that point. But it does seem like Rhaegar is making a play for her at that point. Or maybe he was just giving her recognition for being the Knight of the laughing tree (assuming that was true)?

[Nami]

I'm one of the few (?) that believe Rhaegar didn't plan anything. It's just a tragic character and that Jon being TPTWP was not something planned. Rhaegar already thought Aegon was that prince.

I think his thing with Lyanna had nothing to do with the prophecy, but ended up being about it. They conceived the child of the prophecy without planning to.

So, yeah, I don't think he chose Lyanna because of the Ice and Fire connection between their two houses.

It could be that he chose her to have his third child, however, why go through all the trouble to have a third child (nothing to do with the song of ice and fire) with a noblewoman already betrothed when he could have any other woman in his circle. Still doesn't make sense.

I also think that people take Dany's vision too literally. Dany seeing Rhaegar talking to Elia about the song doesn't mean that actually happened. Maybe it's a message to her? Maybe the prophecy has something to do with her?

The vision of Robb with the wolf head sitting on a throne drinking wine didn't happen for real. Only the wolf head did.

I mean that people take that vision and assume Rhaegar was obsessed, chose Lyanna because of Ice and Fire and tried to have his promised prince with her. Or abducted her to have a third child. It's just too much from a scene that shouldn't be taken literally, I think.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm one of the few (?) that believe Rhaegar didn't plan anything. It's just a tragic character and that Jon being TPTWP was not something planned. Rhaegar already thought Aegon was that prince.

I think his thing with Lyanna had nothing to do with the prophecy, but ended up being about it. They conceived the child of the prophecy without planning to.

So, yeah, I don't think he chose Lyanna because of the Ice and Fire connection between their two houses.

It could be that he chose her to have his third child, however, why go through all the trouble to have a third child (nothing to do with the song of ice and fire) with a noblewoman already betrothed when he could have any other woman in his circle. Still doesn't make sense.

I also think that people take Dany's vision too literally. Dany seeing Rhaegar talking to Elia about the song doesn't mean that actually happened. Maybe it's a message to her? Maybe the prophecy has something to do with her?

The vision of Robb with the wolf head sitting on a throne drinking wine didn't happen for real. Only the wolf head did.

I mean that people take that vision and assume Rhaegar was obsessed, chose Lyanna because of Ice and Fire and tried to have his promised prince with her. Or abducted her to have a third child. It's just too much from a scene that shouldn't be taken literally, I think.

You can count me amongst one of your supporters because I tend to agree with this.

While the themes of magic, prophesy and religion are deliberate, I think Martin uses them as cautionary arcs, highlighting the differences between wisdom in approach to religion and reason in approach to both magic and prophesy.

We don't know that the visions Dany saw weren't a distortion tampered with by the wizards, so she is going to have figure out what the truth is.

Sometimes there is no "there" there, and the simplest answer is the best answer.

[Avalatis]

I'm one of the few (?) that believe Rhaegar didn't plan anything. It's just a tragic character and that Jon being TPTWP was not something planned. Rhaegar already thought Aegon was that prince.

I think his thing with Lyanna had nothing to do with the prophecy, but ended up being about it. They conceived the child of the prophecy without planning to.

So, yeah, I don't think he chose Lyanna because of the Ice and Fire connection between their two houses.

It could be that he chose her to have his third child, however, why go through all the trouble to have a third child (nothing to do with the song of ice and fire) with a noblewoman already betrothed when he could have any other woman in his circle. Still doesn't make sense.

I also think that people take Dany's vision too literally. Dany seeing Rhaegar talking to Elia about the song doesn't mean that actually happened. Maybe it's a message to her? Maybe the prophecy has something to do with her?

The vision of Robb with the wolf head sitting on a throne drinking wine didn't happen for real. Only the wolf head did.

I mean that people take that vision and assume Rhaegar was obsessed, chose Lyanna because of Ice and Fire and tried to have his promised prince with her. Or abducted her to have a third child. It's just too much from a scene that shouldn't be taken literally, I think.

Rhaegar's keen interest in prophecy comes from other aspects of the book and not just that scene. Targaryens in general have been shown to care greatly about prophecy.

But assuming that scene was purely a message to Dany and not an actual event: "There must be three heads of the dragon, and one of them (who is most important) has a song which is of Ice and Fire."

What is Dany supposed to do with this message meant for her? She believes that two of those heads are dead (and Aegon is probably dead). But if the message is directly meant for her she must assume there are 3 heads of the dragon and that one has the song of Ice and Fire (who seems to be important). I guess she'll put it together when she meets other Targaryens.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

yeah, you are right with the ice thing about the Starks. That's now essentially confirmed now. And I don't remember every saying that I find it impossible to see or refer to the Starks as 'ice'. Just that I find it sort of narrow-minded to do so in regards to the Song of Ice and Fire - which, hopefully, does not only mention the good guys but includes a references about the Others as well.

I'm entirely on board with you there, and I'd also agree that any Targaryen-Stark marriage talks are most likely a reference to Rhaegar-Lyanna in some respect although Ran's revelation about Jacaerys Velaryon marrying Cregan Stark's bastard sister in secret is full of interesting implications...

The thing about Rhaegar's coherent personality hinges on your take on his goals.

The time line makes it impossible that Aegon was born before Harrenhal which means we all agree (or should agree) that Aegon's birth and the subsequent talk between Elia and Rhaegar took place after Harrenhal.

The idea that Rhaegar intended to have more children with Elia after Harrenhal and Aegon's birth is very unlikely if we keep in mind what he did at Harrenhal. He publicly humiliated his wife in front of the entire Realm. If you are married and if you win a tourney you crown your own wife to the queen of love and beauty not some other girl who happens to be betrothed to your second cousin.

The idea that Rhaegar was not very much drawn to Lyanna - if he was drawn to her romantically at all, which seems to be the case - at Harrenhal makes no sense whatsoever. We don't yet know what was at the core of their relationship or what Rhaegar saw in Lyanna but my take on this is that Rhaegar actually developed a very deep and maddening passion for Lyanna, something he had never felt or experienced before in his life (and for Lyanna's sake I hope that this was mutual although we don't yet know anything about that).

People have suggested that the Crowning was simply a recognition of her prowess as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and I imagine that there is a little truth in that as we have to assume that Rhaegar approve of the warrior-woman aspect of Lyanna's personality as well as her fierceness - else she would essentially have the wrong girl for him, it is as simple as that. We would also not imagine somebody falling in love with Arya just because she has a pretty face but is disapproving of her character and her personality. Thus it could be that a part of the whole thing was also to recognize her role as the mystery knight - which would have been the event that brought them to together and started their romance. We know that Aerys commanded Rhaegar to find the mystery knight, and it is pretty obvious that Rhaegar's subsequent investigations would have led him to the three knights the knight unhorsed, their three squires, and subsequently Howland Reed and Lyanna Stark. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to follow that trail.

At that point would have begun a mutual attraction, a deep understanding, a romance, but most likely unconsummated. We know Lyanna is not exactly in favor of love nor does hold it in high esteem when she talks to Ned about Robert's love for her (which would have predated Harrenhal as they had long been betrothed to each other). I imagine that emotionally this changed with Lyanna - she liked Rhaegar, she fell in love with him, but she was not really willing to run away with him or begin an affair with him.

This is when Rhaegar decided to enter the lists and fight and win the tourney to crown Lyanna and show her - and all the Realm - how he felt about her. You cannot make a grander gesture of love than to slight your own wife and by extension all her family and friends and publicly proclaim your love for her (or that she is the most beautiful woman at the tourney - whatever it means to be queen of love and beauty). Another interpretation could be that Rhaegar could not actually express his feelings for Lyanna in words - being introvert, most likely never truly have been love before - in that gesture rather than words. Or that he did so in words and Lyanna dismissed his feelings as childish, and he felt he had to show how much he committed to her.

Anyway, what is clear is that Harrenhal was the beginning of the whole Lyanna affair, it was the beginning of both Rhaegar's passion and Robert's hate.

We know that Rhaegar had no direct contact with Lyanna between Harrenhal and the abduction (that is, we know that he was not in the Riverlands until he went there in the end of 281 or the beginning of 282 AC), and we demand an erratic concept of Rhaegar's personality to assume that he did not draw the conclusion that Lyanna was ice to his fire when he first met and fell in love with her. Neither is it very likely that Elia continued to mean anything to her afterwards - as a wife. He was only fond of her - which is a nice way to state that he was not in love with nor attracted to her but (perhaps) enjoyed a company as a friend - whereas that is clearly not the case with Lyanna. So the idea that Rhaegar actually would have wanted to continue his marriage with Elia - or wanted to be with her rather than Lyanna - after Harrenhal strikes me as very unlikely.

While prophecy played a part as well - the birth of Aegon, a male child, on Dragonstone after Harrenhal was a proof Rhaegar needed to believe that his interpretation of the comet in the night of Aegon's conception was correct - is it still unlikely that prophecy (or it interpretation) suddenly caused him to believe he had to father a child on Lyanna just because Elia was no infertile.

Prophecy played an important role in Rhaegar's life - his great-granduncle and possibly his grandfather/grandmother and parents fed him the idea that he was a savior whose coming was foretold in a prophecy. The weight of this expectation was apparently a heavy burden for him as he apparently tried to get rid of it - as Rhaegar could only believe that a child born by Elia and conceived under a comet might be 'the One' if he had already discarded the idea/belief that he was the One. I imagine the fact that Aerys and Rhaella were incapable of having more children for a long period of time played a role there as well as they - and Rhaegar - would most likely have believed that Rhaegar's siblings would complete the three dragon heads.

But love is a much more powerful force, especially for young people. Since the time line of events is that Rhaegar still believed Aegon was the promised prince after he had met Lyanna it is very unlikely indeed that he ever came to the conclusion that the promised prince must be conceived with an icy woman - after all, that Lyanna was 'ice' or that the Starks were 'ice' - he would have known since at Harrenhal (or for much longer if he had read any history at all).

I can believe that Rhaegar ended up believing that prophecy now also agreed or supported his own passion for Lyanna - the gods were sort of giving him permission or encouraging him to follow his heart and take Lyanna, but it is very unlikely that fulfilling prophecy was the main incentive there.

And the idea that Rhaegar - who could only have drawn to conclusion that Aegon was the promised prince after his birth - had the time to rethink this belief before he set out into the Riverlands simply makes no sense.

As to the vision in the House of the Undying:

It is sort of corroborated by Maester Aemon who also knew that Rhaegar believed Aegon, and not he himself, was the promised prince. Since Rhaegar apparently had the time to inform Aemon about his conclusion the idea that Aegon is the new savior cannot have been a fleeting thought, and it is obvious that the vision depicting Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon is about that belief.

Dany's vision about the future - Robb's death - is more vague, possibly due to the fact that it is still in the future. But the visions about Aerys/Rossart and Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon are in the past and thus, perhaps, easily accessible for magics than the future which is still in motion, presumably.

But this doesn't mean Dany is not also the addressee of that vision. The topic is the promised prince, and Rhaegar seems to be addressing her in the end... The meaning is pretty clear there.

[Avalatis]

But this doesn't mean Dany is not also the addressee of that vision. The topic is the promised prince, and Rhaegar seems to be addressing her in the end... The meaning is pretty clear there.

When he addresses her he refers to the fact that there must be 3. Which could be interpreted as she is one of the 3, or she needs to find the 3 (more likely she is one of the three and needs to find the other 2).

The Prince who was promised was another discussion and wasn't addressed to her directly (as you seem to be implying the vision did). He (or the vision of him) quite clearly thought Aegon was the prince who was promised and that this mythical prince had a song already, the song of Ice and Fire.

Another interpretation could be that Rhaegar could not actually express his feelings

A well renowned bard could not express his feelings? He's also roughly 10 years older than Lyanna so I'm not really seeing how she see's him as childish.

[Nami]

He entered the lists after the KoTLT won?

If he entered after returning with the shield and possibly meeting Lyanna it could be he wanted to be chivalrous and wanted to win the tourney for her. Giving her the crown as her prize for being oh so amazing to him. The guy seems absolutely a romantic if this was his intention.

Explains why Lyanna probably was so taken by him and still clung to those winter roses until the end.

[Lord Varys]

Avalatis,

the vision is about the promised prince, and Dany's connection to it. AFfC made it very likely that she is indeed, most likely, that savior, or at least one head of the three-headed trinity that is the savior.

It is not yet clear whether there is one savior or three or one in three guises but the latter seems to be the best guess to me. The symbolism is pretty obvious, too. A three-headed dragon is one being with three heads, not three separate beings. If the prophecy actually talked about 'dragon heads' - and this seems to be the case - then it is very likely the saviors are three closely related Targaryen descendants.

Poetry and singing is not the same as expressing your own feelings, and art can be used as a means to hide or mask your own desires and emotions. Rhaegar may very figure into that category - or not, that was just a speculation. I myself am more in favor of the 'he had to win the tourney to convince Lyanna that he was serious' camp.

But I'd imagine Rhaegar as the shy sort of singer. Singing for himself, singing about stuff other people did and felt, but not about himself. I'd not be surprised if his performances were the only means for him to be truly himself because he could disappear into the art rather than come out of it.

As to 'childish': Especially since Rhaegar was somewhat older than Lyanna his advances may have appeared weird or improper to her at first. After all, he was a married man with his own children, and Lyanna was certainly not eager to become the lover or second wife of such a guy simply because he looked good or sang nice songs. She is the one who had dismissed love as being 'sweet' in a conversation to Ned prior to Harrenhal. She apparently was a very much down to earth kind of girl in regards to love until she met Rhaegar, and I imagine just being a Targaryen was by far not enough to sway her.

Perhaps the best way to characterize my take on the Rhaegar-Lyanna conversations at Harrenhal would be to imagine Rhaegar's Hayden Christensen to Natalie Portman's Lyanna - even if written by the other George those would have been very awkward conversations...

Tourney stuff:

Yandel repeats that it was highly unusual for Rhaegar to participate in tourneys. And considering his original plan for the tourney he was hardly there to compete in the tourney. It is clear that Rhaegar only won the tourney at the end and seems likely he had not participated throughout the whole thing - especially since there may have been many competitions going during the two weeks with the joust for the queen of love and beauty just being the last thing.

[Avalatis]

A three-headed dragon is one being with three heads, not three separate beings.

Or it's 3 Targaryens who fight as one. Rhaegar (or the vision of Rhaegar) clearly thought there needed to be a third child to fit the prophecy. His presentation in that vision is that there needs to be 3 individuals.

I myself am more in favor of the 'he had to win the tourney to convince Lyanna that he was serious' camp

Yeah that is completely possible. But I doubt Rhaegar was unable to express himself. It seems that when he wanted something or thought he needed to do something he didn't let anything get in his way.

But I'd imagine Rhaegar as the shy sort of singer.

I just don't see this at all. I see him as feeling isolated. He grew up thinking he was responsible with saving the world. The burden placed on his shoulders was enough to keep him reserved and very much an internal thinker. It's the hero complex that Harry Potter had as well. Being reserved does not make you shy.

Especially since Rhaegar was somewhat older than Lyanna his advances may have appeared weird or improper to her at first.

Not really. This is a medieval culture. My point was that she is less likely to think him childish with his clear majority over her. A reserved person is also less likely to be considered immature as they aren't speaking before thinking.

After all, he was a married man with his own children, and Lyanna was certainly not eager to become the lover or second wife of such a guy simply because he looked good or sang nice songs.

Yeah I could see that posing a problem for any woman. Unless she thought Rhaegar would put aside his first wife. This is all speculation though, we have no way of knowing they even talked during this tournament. And if they did talk how much time they spent getting to know one another. Could it have been a mutual love and fire sight type encounter? Could it have been Lyanna had thoroughly impressed him with what she had done as the Knight of the Laughing tree (assuming that was her)? He had time to confront her about it, but not enough time for them to talk it over. Thus he showed his appreciation for her with the crown (which still seems dumb)?

All we know is he gave her the crown and had fallen in love with her from afar.

She is the one who had dismissed love as being 'sweet' in a conversation to Ned prior to Harrenhal. She apparently was a very much down to earth kind of girl in regards to love until she met Rhaegar, and I imagine just being a Targaryen was by far not enough to sway her.

Well she might have been a bit tom boyish. Which those type of girls don't think of romance until they're hit in the face with it. We have debated Lyanna's character before. There is too little to go on to make conclusions of what she may or may not have done.

Perhaps the best way to characterize my take on the Rhaegar-Lyanna conversations at Harrenhal would be to imagine Rhaegar's Hayden Christensen to Natalie Portman's Lyanna - even if written by the other George those would have been very awkward conversations...

Well if that was the case Lyanna never would fall in love with Rhaegar. That dialogue was awful. The only reason she fell in love with him was because of force persuasion. Or she really had a thing for corrupting dumb/misguided warrior monks.

[Ygrain]

Because I haven't in a while...

I think that crowning Lyanna had nothing to do with prohecy. I think that Rhaegar was smitten, the first time in his life, just like Jorah was smitten with Lynesse, but Rhaegar was married, and dutiful. He had a wife, and a world to save, and crowning Lyanna was about the furthest he could go (just like Barristan crowning Ashara). Only after he realized that he wouldn't be able to fulfill the prohecy with Elia, did he start to act on his feelings, with the prophecy giving him an excuse to skip, or perhaps broaden, his marital duty.

BTW, show!Selyse perceives Stannis bedding Mel as a blessing to save the world. I can't recall, does book!Selyse express such sentiments?

[Lord Varys]

Nope, she doesn't. However, I'm inclined to believe that the real Selyse actually literally put Mel in Stannis' bed or actively encouraged him to sleep with her.

On the other hand, there is her is her statement in ADwD expressing her wish that she and Stannis could get happy/have a son if Stannis only followed her advice to marry again in the light of the Lord. That could be interpreted as her ignoring Stannis' affair with Melisandre willingly/closing her eyes to it. Selyse is actually a sort of mysterious character to me - whether she actually likes or loves her husband is not clear to me. I doubt that she does, though.

The Crowning thing is a very important thing. Barristan seems to have believed he could stop it there but I imagine Ashara may have been more than willing to begin an affair with the great Barristan Selmy after he had made it clear that he had the hots for her. As far as we know she was neither betrothed nor ever married.

Whether Rhaegar and Lyanna actually consummated their romance at Harrenhal is an interesting question - after all, there may have been a few days of celebrations left after the Crowning - is an interesting question. I think we can agree that 'duty' prevailed in the end as he did return to Dragonstone.

Jon certainly was not conceived at Harrenhal due to time line issues, although that would have made things quite interesting as a unwanted pregnancy would clearly have complicated things for Lyanna.

Whether Elia becoming infertile was important as the last straw to decide to take Lyanna or whether it was just a minor thing is not clear. Prophecy-wise Elia's situation made it impossible for Rhaegar to conceive another child with her but we have virtually no clue why Rhaegar thought he was the Targaryen destined to conceive all the three dragon heads. Why couldn't his younger brother Viserys be one of the heads - Aegon, Rhaenys, and Viserys? Had he good reason to believe that it was his task to - first - save the world, and then conceive the real savior of the world?

I'd be surprised if rational thoughts figured all that much into his decisions there. Had he thought stuff through he may have found a solution for this whole mess without causing a chaos. Say, by first setting Elia aside as his wife due to the fact that she was no longer fertile, reaching out to Lord Rickard and making an offer to make his daughter the new queen which may have had some chances of success if it became clear that Lyanna would be the only queen. Had Rhaegar succeeded in getting Rickard on his side the ending of the Lyanna-Robert betrothal wouldn't have caused much trouble as Robert would have faced a united Targaryen-Stark front there - although there was always the chance of an anti-Targaryen Baratheon-Martell alliance. With Elia out of the way the status of Elia's children would most likely have been called into question, too, mostly by the Starks, the new in-laws of the prince - who would not have been not that eager to marry their daughter to a prince who would not seat her children over those from his discarded wife.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

You speculate about what Rhaegar perhaps could have done that would have led to a better result. Given how badly things actually went, almost any other approach might have been better. But personally, I am more interesting in trying to figure out what he actually did and why rather than what he might have done differently. You seem to be overly dismissive of the possibility that Rhaegar only considered having a child with Lyanna after Elia no longer could have children. I agree with Ygrain (post #337). I agree that whatever happened at Harrenhal did not involve Rhaegar thinking that he was no longer going to have any more children with Elia. You make a huge leap that just because Rhaegar embarrassed Elia, their physical relationship was over. You have no evidence of that conclusion and many of us do not believe he expected such a result at all. And Elia really would not have choice. She was not going to refuse to give him more children (prior to being told she could no longer have children -- either because Aegon left her barren or another pregnancy would be too dangerous -- the text is a bit ambiguous on which she was told) just because he crowned Lyanna. Once again, you jump to conclusions. If the HotU vision is at all a representation of a real conversation (and I believe it is), it shows Rhaegar and Elia on good terms, and implies -- more than implies -- strongly indicates -- that Rhaegar intends to have a third child to be the third head of the dragon. Once Elia could not supply that child, Rhaegar needed to look elsewhere.

Your entire case that Rhaegar could not have changed him mind regarding who was TPTWP seems to hinge essentially on the assumption that after Harrenhal, Rhaegar would not expect Elia to have more children with him because he embarrassed her. I find that line of reasoning flawed. Based on what we know of Rhaegar, he may not always behave in the most politically cautious manner (crowning Lyanna was a bold move that was bound to upset many people), but no matter how badly it might embarrass Elia, she was going to get over it (and based on the vision, she did), and at a minimum, it never would occur to Rhaegar -- someone who did the crowning to begin with -- that this action would preclude Elia from giving him more children. She is the wife of the crown prince -- and giving the realm heirs is basically her main job.

Once Elia could not longer have children -- Rhaegar was required to look elsewhere to have the third child. You suggest that it was unreasonable for Rhaegar to think he needed to father all three heads. Maybe it was -- but that almost certainly was what Rhaegar believed. So Rhaegar was too honorable prior to the news of Elia's health to consider having a child with another woman. Once this news occurred, Rhaegar would have felt he had not choice. And once he considered Lyanna -- the Fire/Ice connection likely would have been irresistible to him.

Now maybe you are right. Maybe Rhaegar never thought he could get Elia to have any more children after Harrenhal. Maybe Rhaegar was always scheming to have a child with Lyanna after Harrenhal. Maybe Rhaegar never thought Jon would be TPTWP. But the idea that Harrenhal makes the theory that I put forward implausible is preposterous. You simply have no textual support that the crowning of Lyanna would have made Rhaegar conclude that Elia would never be willing to give Rhaegar a third child.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

I don't try to make a case that Rhaegar having more children with Elia after meeting Lyanna was impossible, I'm inclined to believe that he was essentially done with Elia as a wife at this point as it is quite clear that Rhaegar wasn't into polyarmory - Elia wasn't his wife by choice, she was a wife forced on him by his father and the Princess of Dorne and while he did not loath or dislike her, he was apparently not physically attracted or in love with her.

But he was in love with Lyanna. If you are madly in love with somebody you usually want to have children with that person - if you want to have children at all - and not with 'the other wife' you also happen to have.

This in itself makes it very unlikely that he would have be determined to continue his marriage after Harrenhal or wanted to father more children on her - why would he do that, exactly? It was quite dangerous to impregnate Elia anyway due to her bad health. The argument is that Rhaegar could not have known or been convinced at Harrenhal that he was destined to bring forth the promised prince. Aegon was not yet born, and all 'evidence' Rhaegar had at that point was the comet in the night of the child's conception. But only after it was born and turned out be male could it be clear for him that this child, this Aegon, was indeed the promised prince.

The chain of events should go like that:

1. Rhaegar believes he is the promised prince but eventually discards the belief for unknown reason.

2. In 281 AC he has sex with Elia Martell in a night in which there is a red comet seen in the sky. Once Rhaegar realizes that Elia was impregnated in that night he considers the comet to be important and most likely rereads the part of the prophecy about the bleeding star. He concludes that the promised prince may have been conceived in that night.

3. Harrenhal occurs, and Rhaegar still lacks confirmation for his belief that his second child is the promised prince because it isn't born yet.

4. When the child is born male things become clear for Rhaegar: Aegon is the promised prince.

Rhaegar would not have had any pressing, prophecy-related reasons to have more children with Elia before, at, and after Harrenhal while Aegon wasn't yet born as only that birth confirmed his new interpretation of the prophecy for him.

On the other hand we have reason to assume that the attraction/affair/whatever between Rhaegar and Lyanna began at Harrenhal. This makes the time line you are proposing look like this:

1. Rhaegar believes he is the promised prince but eventually discards the belief for unknown reason.

2. In 281 AC he has sex with Elia Martell in a night in which there is a red comet seen in the sky. Once Rhaegar realizes that Elia was impregnated in that night he considers the comet to be important and most likely rereads the part of the prophecy about the bleeding star. He concludes that the promised prince may have been conceived in that night.

3. Harrenhal occurs, and Rhaegar still lacks confirmation for his belief that his second child is the promised prince because it isn't born yet. Rhaegar meets and falls in love with Lyanna but doesn't make the obvious 'ice and fire' connection for, well, reasons, and also continues to believe that Elia and not Lyanna is the mother of the promised prince.

4. When the child is born male things become clear for Rhaegar: Aegon is the promised prince. A short time thereafter he suddenly dismisses his comet-based interpretation of the prophecy in favor of the 'the promised prince being the Song of Ice and Fire' theory despite the fact that he had all the pieces ready to come to that very same conclusion at Harrenhal.

Rhaegar would have anxiously awaited the birth of the child to confirm or negate his theory. He hadn't reached a conclusion yet. But after Aegon's birth he had such a conclusion - how on earth should it make sense for him or us that he would later rethink his conclusion on information - Starkish ice symbolism and his feelings for Lyanna - he had already access to when he made his decision after Aegon's birth.

That's the crux here, and I hope this has become clear now.

Rhaegar being with Elia and Aegon does not mean that they were on very good terms or still a happy married couple. It only shows that Rhaegar was interested in Aegon as he was (supposedly) the prophesied savior. There were months between Harrenhal and Aegon's birth and thus Elia and Rhaegar could have had some time to reach an understanding (or not).

And if we want to put much emphasis on the prophecy motivations of Rhaegar's actions it may actually be that his hope/expectation that Elia's second child would turn out to be the promised prince would have been the main or a strong incentive to not run away with Lyanna after Harrenhal.