IceFire125 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 In my opinion 'the shadow', relating to Dany's HoTU vision, is none other than Jon. There are hints GRRM attributing Jon to shadow... For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name Qhorin Halfhand gazed at him (Jon) across the fire, his eyes lost in pools of shadow All in black, he (Jon) was a shadow among shadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magic713 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 What do you think the circumstances will be when R+L=J is revealed in the story? What characters do you think will find out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnowGOAT Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 What do you think the circumstances will be when R+L=J is revealed in the story? What characters do you think will find out? My guess on how the reader will find out: Bran will see a past vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna wed in front of a heart tree on the isle of faces and perhaps he'll sort of put it together, or maybe have another vision of Ned confirming it. As far as Jon finding out, i have no clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 My guess on how the reader will find out: Bran will see a past vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna wed in front of a heart tree on the isle of faces and perhaps he'll sort of put it together, or maybe have another vision of Ned confirming it. As far as Jon finding out, i have no clue. If we see the wedding ceremony through Bran I suspect Bran himself will not understand it, or at least not grasp the implication for Jon. I think that would be "phase two" of the three fold revelation thing. Confirmation to the observant reader, but still to be explained later more directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Something I pointed out in another thread, but that I thought was worth mentioning here. In TWoIaF, we read about the Blood Betrayal ushering in the Long Night. When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men. - TWoIaF, Beyond the Sunset Kingdom, Yi Ti Bloodstone is typically green spotted with red, link. This reminded me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident. Green spotted with red. Notice how it's said that the Bloodstone Emperor usurped his sister. Robert is called the Usurper about a couple of dozen times a piece in each of the first three books, iirc. The Bloodstone Betrayal, the usurpation, was followed by the emergence of the Lion of Night. In the books, and even generally speaking, night is associated with death. Can anyone think of who might be a good candidate to be known as the Lion of Death? Hold on, let me ask the Reynes and Tarbecks, or the Martells and Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Mithras, I don't agree with you there. Rhaegar would have committed treason in any case, but only with Aerys absent he could have had a chance of succeeding as the king would not have been there, and would have not had a quick way to intervene - by, say, having Rhaegar arrested and publicly burned alive to show off that he was in charge. What Rhaegar indicates to Jaime in ASoS is Harrenhal - his intention to move against Aerys there. I imagine Rhaegar intended to talk with the great lords present at Harrenhal first informally about Aerys' state of mind, and then announce the Great Council when some/many of the great lords had already pledged themselves to his cause privately. That would not have guarantee that they would not have backed down/betrayed him later on, but if, say, Tywin, Jon Arryn, Hoster, Robert, Mace, and the Dornish representatives had spoken against Aerys at Rhaegar's side their bannermen most likely would not decided to object openly - how they would have voted in secret is another matter, as is the question if all/many of the great lords would have joined Rhaegar in the first place. I really do not see the point why the presence of Aerys can be taken as deterrent rather than useful in a possible plot to dethrone him. Much before Aerys got that worse, Tywin already spoke during the Defiance that Rhaegar would be a much better king and no one seemed to be bothered about it at that instant. Your comments make it look like it was an impossible thing to do, even if Aerys didnot show up. Then, why should Rhaegar put so much effort to such a hopeless plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 No way that Rhaegar could call a council with Aerys at HH. Most lords are, or at least were, loyal to the king by default. Look at Robert's Rebellion. Lords from the Riverlands, stormlands and Vale all fought against the rebels at one time or another. I can't recall if this is from the show or books, but didn't Stannis even weigh his obligations to his brother and his king? And after all of the crazy stuff that Aerys did, and the battles the crown lost, Rhaegar still brought more men to the Trident than the rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 No way that Rhaegar could call a council with Aerys at HH. Most lords are, or at least were, loyal to the king by default. Look at Robert's Rebellion. Lords from the Riverlands, stormlands and Vale all fought against the rebels at one time or another. I can't recall if this is from the show or books, but didn't Stannis even weigh his obligations to his brother and his king? And after all of the crazy stuff that Aerys did, and the battles the crown lost, Rhaegar still brought more men to the Trident than the rebels. Then, he could not have called it had Aerys not come too. And offending 2-3 Great Houses with a gesture at the same tourney where he had intended to gather their support to dethrone his father makes even less sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Then, he could not have called it had Aerys not come too. And offending 2-3 Great Houses with a gesture at the same tourney where he had intended to gather their support to dethrone his father makes even less sense. Yes he could have, because there would have been time to reason with the lords, without worrying about someone telling Aerys right there and then, before he had a chance to secure enough of the right people to his side. Frankly, you have to assume someone would have told Aerys right there and then. If Rhaegar called a council and Aerys stormed in with his retinue and started talking about treason, the easy decision for everyone not already firmly a part of #TeamRhaegar would have been to side with the king and assist in arresting the treasonous crown prince. Going back to the example of Robert's Rebellion, recall that Robert was able to win many lords over to his side who had initially fought against him. This is because the default position for almost all lords is loyalty to the king. Rhaegar would have needed some time to convince these lords to do whatever it is he planned to do. He never would have gotten the time to make his case if the lords knew that the Mad King could barge in at any moment. Honestly, I don't see how this is even a debatable point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 @Mirhras, people will be more hesitant to even listen to any suggestions of taking power away from a king, however mad, if that king is present in the same castle, ready to act immediately. With the king hundred of miles away, there is some feeling of safety left.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 @Mirhras, people will be more hesitant to even listen to any suggestions of taking power away from a king, however mad, if that king is present in the same castle, ready to act immediately. With the king hundred of miles away, there is some feeling of safety left.. Or it would be a perfect opportunity to take their hands on the king. Aerys was right there for them to grab. If they had Aerys in their hands, no one would rally after him against Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Or it would be a perfect opportunity to take their hands on the king. Aerys was right there for them to grab. If they had Aerys in their hands, no one would rally after him against Rhaegar.That would require all the lords present having a plan, being clear on what they wanted.. that was not the case.. the way it is described, Rhaegar wanted to use the tourney to discuss possibilities, learn everyone's opinions, and form a plan. You can't execute a plan if you don't know who is all aboard, and who is all still firmly on the kings side.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm still waiting for textual confirmation that Jon is a Targaryen. So you mean that you come from the future and you have read everything GRRM ever wrote! Please do tell more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Gah, I had such a hard time getting on the forums for the past 24 hours. Hope everyone who watched enjoyed the premiere! Did anyone get a bit of a Rhaegar-vibe from Jon when he was having that really great conversation with Mance about what really matters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Gah, I had such a hard time getting on the forums for the past 24 hours. Hope everyone who watched enjoyed the premiere! Did anyone get a bit of a Rhaegar-vibe from Jon when he was having that really great conversation with Mance about what really matters? What is Rhaegar-vibe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Nothing I ever got from Kit Harington. And neither a 'Jon Snow vibe', whatever that may be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 UL, George is not going to change stuff he has previously hinted at. Say, Varys/Illyrio are not suddenly turning out to Starks for, well, reasons, nor is is Jon Snow not going to turn out to be Lyanna's son by Rhaegar. But this doesn't mean that he'll not subtle modify stuff. Jon Snow could, for instance, turn out to be Rhaegar's legitimate son or his bastard regardless of what George had in mind when he put the clues - as they are not completely conclusive and the story would not contradict itself if one or the other turned out to be true. The same is true for the various prophecies and visions - the stone beast breathing shadow fire, Dany's betrayals, the golden crowns and shrouds, the valonqar - all that should make an appearance in the story. But there is no reason to believe that the end is sort of set in stone and only the road there is to be determined. A lot of stuff happens on the road, and there are also mortal accidents occasionally...LV-- I strongly disagree with this analysis, and your example of Jon as either trueborn or bastard is a good example for why I disagree. Let me be clear -- I actually sort of agree that GRRM can "subtle modify stuff" but only to the extent that he left the issue open to begin with. I am sure there are many side points that are not critical to the endgame and he is free -- and likely will -- make decisions about these issues as he comes to them. I believe that is what he means when he says he does not outline the books. I also believe that this new hint he discussed recently about a plot development he is going to introduce that cannot happen on the show due to decisions they made about characters likely is an example of such a development -- a plot point that won't be central to the endgame but will be an interesting side point that will take a few characters in a direction not initially contemplated. But back to where I strongly disagree. Something along the lines of whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is something that has been way too hinted at. Either all the clues I have interpreted as meaning they were married are correct -- OR GRRM has an "out" that he had planned from the beginning. I believe it is too late for him to change his mind on an issue like that without the "clues" he planted becoming corrupted in retrospect. The fact that the clues are not 100% definitive is not the same as saying that GRRM did not lay them down a certain way because it will make sense once he gets to the ultimate conclusion. So just because no one can determine with 100% certainty whether a marriage happened is not the same as concluding that GRRM laid out the clues leaving either resolution a possibility. And his famous SSM where he indicates that he does not want to "lie" to the readers is exactly about this point. Once he has laid the clues down -- he is not going to work to try to make the clues make sense for a different resolution because the alternative never works as well as the original plan from a literary foreshadowing point of view. GRRM has said he will not do such a thing -- and I believe him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 In my opinion 'the shadow', relating to Dany's HoTU vision, is none other than Jon. There are hints GRRM attributing Jon to shadow... For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name Qhorin Halfhand gazed at him (Jon) across the fire, his eyes lost in pools of shadow All in black, he (Jon) was a shadow among shadows The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Gah, I had such a hard time getting on the forums for the past 24 hours. Hope everyone who watched enjoyed the premiere! Did anyone get a bit of a Rhaegar-vibe from Jon when he was having that really great conversation with Mance about what really matters? Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded ;) Not to mention intelligent, pensive and quite a bit brooding lol And this is only the beginning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Well, you don't have to be smart that the Others will kill anyone when they finally come. Jeor Mormont figured that out, too, and he wasn't Rhaegar's son as far as we know... UL, perhaps the Jon Snow thing isn't the best example. My point is that vague references and hints that are up to interpretation can be both dropped, ignored, or reinterpreted by the author to fit a better explanation. I don't remember any explicit hints that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married anyway - so George would not have to twist or reinterpret his own clues in a very different way. The best stuff is the raven's 'king' stuff, but that could turn out to be Bloodraven - being a bastard himself - making his preference known (not to mention that he may have no clue about Daenerys' existence). For instance, George is not committed to bring back Sandor Clegane. There is a hint that he is the grave digger but if he decides that he has no use for Sandor in future novels he could either stay on the Quiet Isle or turn out to be dead after all (or simply never appear again). Sarella could be Alleras but she doesn't have to be. Aegon can still be Rhaegar's son or Illyrio's son. And so on. This all has to be separated from the story and its end, though. Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is trivial detail. The important thing is what George is going to do with Jon Snow being a half-Targaryen. There aren't all that much clues in that direction so this is an open question. For instance, considering that the original outline mentioned neither a savior nor the three dragon heads it is entirely possible that George originally wanted to seat Jon Snow and Arya on the Iron Throne in the end. I don't think that's going to happen now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Gah, I had such a hard time getting on the forums for the past 24 hours. Hope everyone who watched enjoyed the premiere! Did anyone get a bit of a Rhaegar-vibe from Jon when he was having that really great conversation with Mance about what really matters?There is no real spoiler here but I prefer to be safe. Well over iin the show sub, it's being talked about rather heavily as the worst part of the episode, that or Loras. Though not because of Kit, but rather the extremly illogical argument Mance makes. It's also not because it deviated from the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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