Lord Varys Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Harrenhal stuff: You cannot plot against the king when the paranoid king himself is present. And we should note that Aerys II was actually a very powerful king. He was completely in control of his own court and administration, and power was not much delegated. Aerys had ruled for nearly two decades and people were accustomed to obey him. It is nearly impossible to imagine that many lords would have even entertained the idea to support Rhaegar against his father or back his points in a debate if Aerys himself was present. Not only because they were afraid to be executed but because they knew this would have been treason. If the king is far away then thoughts and words about treason aren't that dangerous. But it is an entirely different when the king and his thugs are only a hallway away... I imagine Rhaegar's plan was to get prominent great lords on his side in informal talks during the actual tourney and then proclaim a Great Council openly debating the matter when the outcome was already effectively rigged - say, if Rhaegar had had 6-7 great lords on board there would have been a very good chance that only very few bannermen of those lords would have dared to champion Aerys' cause. But I doubt that Rhaegar could really have gotten 6-7 great lords on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.This reminds me a lot about Rhaegar entering the lists with streamers of red and orange . . . Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 This reminds me a lot about Rhaegar entering the lists with streamers of red and orange . . . Hmmm. I would say it is not casual lol AFfC, Cersei, chapter 24: Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange had floated behind his helm, like flames. ADwD, Melisandre, chapter 30: The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black. Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Yeah, but who Jon's parents are won't change. The producers have told the story of how they got the job by answering that question many times. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The road to the ending will diverge, as it already has, from he books. But the ending will be the same. We have been told this multiple times by the author and the show creators. From D&D: Showrunner David Benioff confirmed in a talk at Oxford Union that book and show storylines will "eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we're heading towards the same destination. "I kind of wish that there were some things we didn't have to spoil, but we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The show must go on ... and that's what we're going to do." They met with GRRM and have the complete layout of the story: Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, continued Benioff. Because we don't know if we are going to catch up, and where exactly that would be if you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we sat just down with him and literally went through every character and said, "So what's the destination for Daenarys? And Arya?" They are working toward the ending George gave them: So last September at a seaside park grove in Croatia, inside a dim tent full of camera monitors, we asked the duo: You know Georges ending for the saga. A lot of fans have wondered whether its going to pay off in a satisfying way. Non-specifically, do you feel the sagas ending is creatively satisfying? Is it an ending youre excited to work towards?Their replies were immediate and emphatic.Benioff: Absolutely yes.Weiss: 100 percent. You are free to believe them if you so choose... Personally, I do not... All parties in the above quotes seem far too eager to offer up that info... I think it is contrived, planned... My personal feelings are that D&D don't really know how Ice & Fire will be resolved, especially in regards to the North, but I am not trying to change anyone's opinions. It would be a marketing nightmare for GRRM to allow HBO to finish first with the same ending... I have a hard time believing that GRRM is willing to forego $10's of millions in book sales... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity. More likely, GRRM is using the curtain reference in the same way he has many times before when referencing the Far North... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 This reminds me a lot about Rhaegar entering the lists with streamers of red and orange . . . Hmmm. I'm pretty sure that this is not what GRRM was referencing... More likely that Mel saw Red & Orange when looking into the fire because that is the color that fire typically is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm pretty sure that this is not what GRRM was referencing... More likely that Mel saw Red & Orange when looking into the fire because that is the color that fire typically is...I would say it is not casual lol By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black. Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity.I quite agree with the latter (FrozenFire3), which is why I mentioned it. I suppose it is possible for a reader to be oblivious to it, but to ignore it after it is pointed out . . . well, that reminds one of the ostrich which buries her head in sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black. Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity. Until he is awakened. :) You know nothing = asleep Fire and Blood = awake They sat atop their pyramids sipping apricot wine and talking of the glories of the Old Empire whilst the centuries slipped by and the very bricks of the city crumbled all around them. Custom and caution had an iron grip upon us till you awakened us with fire and blood. Fire and Blood is Jon's true heritage and through that he will be awakened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Meat Pie Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm still waiting for textual confirmation that Jon is a Targaryen.Same here...all these conspiracies seem false to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 What is Rhaegar-vibe? I mean the whole "sacrifice your honor and what your people might think because there is something bigger coming" speech with Mance Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded ;) Not to mention intelligent, pensive and quite a bit brooding lol And this is only the beginning... That too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalatis Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Maybe that is why it is taking him so long to write the next book? Has he worked out too many of the details (in part because he had to lay them out more clearly for D&D) and thus has lost some interest, making it a slower writing process? Unfortunately for us, when GRRM knows where the story is going, he loses interest in the writing. :( This has been my opinion for a while. When I do creative writing I have the most fun designing the world, the settings, the literary themes, the main plot arcs and turning points. The last 10 stories I usually just write these and then never actually write the story. The filler can sometimes be boring getting to the key parts of the story that you want to write. I felt that Deathly Hollows also suffered from this. Martin seems to have lost interest in his story (which might be because he has it all figured out now). It is really hard to write a story if you no longer care for it (especially since he has been playing this story in his head for several decades). He recently made a comment about how excited he was that he found a nice twist for a character that works, but he hadn't planned for. While these novels are large, they shouldn't take 5 years to come out (considering the first 3 also show the speed in which an interested author can release them). When I picked up the series over a decade ago and AFFC wasn't out, I thought it was a trilogy... I didn't want to wait for any more books to come out as I was already in the middle of Sword of Truth, Harry Potter, and Wheel of Time for on going epic fantasy series. I almost wish he could have stuck to the 3 trilogy idea (though the first 3 books might not have been good) just so we would have closure. The T.V. series hopefully will bring that. He obviously does not have the fortitude necessary to write a long epic fantasy series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm not sure that Rhaegar was 'dutiful' in the sense Jon is (or was). Nobody forced Rhaegar to believe/come to conclusion he has to fix the world - if that's what he was about. Believing you are the savior of the world or destined to father him is actually hubris not being dutiful. And if we compare Jon-Ygritte to Rhaegar-Lyanna Rhaegar clearly lost track of the mission whereas Jon came out on top and sacrificed Ygritte and his love to her to do 'the right thing'. Rhaegar did not do anything like that when he abducted or run away with Lyanna and did not lift a finger when the Realm fell apart around him. Jon and Ygritte left their cave, but Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed there until it was too late. And they paid the price for it. There are some character traits and physical characteristics Jon and Rhaegar seem to share. Jon is also an introvert - but we don't know whether this comes from his bastard heritage -, and he seems to have the Targaryen grace/beauty without the actual features. One can also put forth that Jon's intelligence comes from Rhaegar - being somewhat smarter than Robb - but I'm not sure the Starks/Tullys are known for their low IQ... The fire color stuff comes up a lot in the series when fire is described, and is actually one of George's worser phrases - yes, we get it that fire is red, yellow, and orange the first time. It is used in Targaryen heraldry, of course, most notably in the personal arms of the Bright Prince, Aerion Targaryen (in THK). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Heh, they banned Markg171 for posting that stuff about the leaked episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Heh, they banned Markg171 for posting that stuff about the leaked episodes. I noticed that, and was going to remind everybody to please refrain from posting anything about the leaked episodes. Not even in spoiler tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I'd just not talk about it at all. And I'd probably edit any posts with any reference like that to the leaked eps. Just tried finding it and can't, so hopefully I'm good. It would be the equivalent of saying something like "I heard there was a really cool food product on Shark Tank, so it probably won't be an all hardware episode" (guess what I'm watching now....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 [mod] NO LEAKED EPISODES. Post anything about them (content, where to find them, etc) and you will be permanently banned from the site. Those are clear instructions from Ran. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 [mod] NO LEAKED EPISODES. Post anything about them (content, where to find them, etc) and you will be permanently banned from the site. Those are clear instructions from Ran. [/mod] Thank you. I think we should post this in future OPs until after all of the leaked episodes have actually aired. I would advise big, bold, bright text. Done and done. Guy's gone. Good. I suppose they banned him for the leaked ep stuff, but I wouldn't mind seeing a little more discipline for the various forms of trolling, especially by newer members. I've wanted to call someone on here an asshole, or worse, plenty of times. One of the things I did before I signed up and started posting was to lurk for a while and get a feel for the atmosphere here. I finally decided to join in the discussions once I realized that the level of discourse was pretty reasonable and respectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 This has been my opinion for a while. When I do creative writing I have the most fun designing the world, the settings, the literary themes, the main plot arcs and turning points. The last 10 stories I usually just write these and then never actually write the story. The filler can sometimes be boring getting to the key parts of the story that you want to write. I felt that Deathly Hollows also suffered from this. Martin seems to have lost interest in his story (which might be because he has it all figured out now). It is really hard to write a story if you no longer care for it (especially since he has been playing this story in his head for several decades). He recently made a comment about how excited he was that he found a nice twist for a character that works, but he hadn't planned for. While these novels are large, they shouldn't take 5 years to come out (considering the first 3 also show the speed in which an interested author can release them). When I picked up the series over a decade ago and AFFC wasn't out, I thought it was a trilogy... I didn't want to wait for any more books to come out as I was already in the middle of Sword of Truth, Harry Potter, and Wheel of Time for on going epic fantasy series. I almost wish he could have stuck to the 3 trilogy idea (though the first 3 books might not have been good) just so we would have closure. The T.V. series hopefully will bring that. He obviously does not have the fortitude necessary to write a long epic fantasy series. I'd also point out that the more you are nearing the end, the more dificult the writing becomes.- everything must fit, no lose ends... the liberty that you were once able to take is no longer there. And, if you've been toying with the story too long in your head, your brain inevitably starts craving for novelty - it's not like you lose interest, it's just that new plot bunnies go rampant and there is often no other way to get rid of them but to write them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Jon and Ygritte left their cave, but Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed there until it was too late. And they paid the price for it. There are some character traits and physical characteristics Jon and Rhaegar seem to share. Jon is also an introvert - but we don't know whether this comes from his bastard heritage -, and he seems to have the Targaryen grace/beauty without the actual features. One can also put forth that Jon's intelligence comes from Rhaegar - being somewhat smarter than Robb - but I'm not sure the Starks/Tullys are known for their low IQ... Stayed where? We do not know if they stayed in one place. At least for Rhaegar. KG mentions being far away at least for some time, perhaps they went with Rhaegar (or maybe all together with Lyanna). Regarding introvert - not a big surprise when Jon has so much North in him and northern mother. Which everyone mentions. And no one in the book mentions any Targaryen features in him, only fans in forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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