[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm sorry I've read it through twice and I just don't see anything in there that makes a lick of sense. besides the idea which is widely accepted and has weight that Jaime kills cersei.

But even that is disputable. Anyway I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was asking you to share. So I'll try and be more clear. Sorry if I was not before.

I was asking you what in the text so far has influenced how you view Sansa's role in the books, her own personal journey. Not what you think will happen, I get that you are basing your predictions on what you see as foreshadowing, And I applaud that because so many don't even take the text into account and just go on what they would like to see. But I happen as you probably know from my posts to disagree with most all of what you've felt is foreshadowing. I'd love to get a more clear idea of how you came to these conclusions, because I'll be honest non of it makes any sense to me.

So really I guess what I was hoping to understand is what in the story so far has influenced your comprehension of sansa's individual journey and her role in the story. Because it seems to me that you see her simply as a useless maiden who needs rescuing all the time, and her role is just to get passed around between one baddy and another hoping to be rescued.

Which I guess is the exact opposite of how I and a lot of others have understood it. I mean I am not on board with Queen in the North, tbh I don't see her as Queen, though I will cheer those who do, because, well i prefer that idea to a lot of the others that folk have about her. But no I don't see her as a ruler, not long term, though I do think she'll restore WF and be in charge there for a short time, long enough to reenact the snowcastle scene for real. But I see her role in team stark as more the background political manipulator, the woman with a plan.

I Feel it is very evident in the story as we currently know it that she has gone from sheltered dreamer, believer in fairy tales & content with her societies role for her, to a woman who is very wary, who is slowly learning how to play the game, and use her natural skills (perceptiveness & flattery to name just two.) to play those around her in order to gain what she desires. Which is restoration of her name & her home, her family. That she is the antithesis of the princesses as prizes trope, that though she was literally placed as a captive in a tower (twice) she ultimately will get herself out of that predicament. And she has/is doing so. She chose to meet the mysterious note leaver in the godswood taking a knife with intent to use it if she must, she accepted the Willas plan, she ran when the time came to do so, and so got out of KL. Now LF has her and she is once again a captive, though her situation is no longer as precarious, and she is learning from him and working towards her freedom with him. They have differing goals, but she is actively participating once again in freeing herself. She is choosing her path, as much as she is able to in the circumstances. I see her story as a coming of age which is basically all the kids stories, this is an intergenerational epic centering around 5 children growing up. Coming of age is about achieving independence. And Sansa's story is about this too, first wanting it, then being denied it in the extreme, then moving towards it and finally taking it for herself.

Where is the point in a story about a girl who is used abused and subjugated continually and has to be rescued by her more masculine presenting little sister? What is that story telling the reader? and why on earth would GRRM chose to tell such a tale?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

what happens if Sansa is brought to KL while Jaime is Hand?

Cersei will want her executed ASAP, but Jaime could avoid it.. surely he would be forced to give her a fair trial.

[aryagonnakill#2]

How did Jaime become hand? Is everyone forgetting that GRRM said multiple people will sit the Iron Throne before the end? Its not just going to be Lannisters and then Dany.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

How did Jaime become hand? Is everyone forgetting that GRRM said multiple people will sit the Iron Throne before the end? Its not just going to be Lannisters and then Dany.

Theres some foreshadowing.... i think that Jaime will return to KL and play politics.. and probably have some power

Sure, and those people (the multiple ones that will sit the Iron Throne), include regents... the next one, most likely MAce.

Edited April 15, 2015 by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

How did Jaime become hand? Is everyone forgetting that GRRM said multiple people will sit the Iron Throne before the end? Its not just going to be Lannisters and then Dany.

I was going to make that point earlier. :) I doubt very much the Lannisters still have the IT when dany shows up.

Also Jaime last we saw him was burning Cersei's plea letter and more interested in going with Brienne to find Sansa himself. I don't see anything in text to indicate he would take a position as Hand. He seems most invested in putting write his lost honour.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Ya, seems like we are largely in agreement The Weirwood Eyes, I don't see Jaime being hand or anything like that either. IMO Aegon is sure to sit the throne, and I believe the day he does Dany will take Dragonstone, kind of mimicking the way that the day Harrenhall was finally finished, Aegon landed. Tyrell power is being pressed on all sides, and 1 failure will seriously limit their ability to combat the other threats. Rowan is taken or dead as we know Aegon has Storms End, a force is on its way to meet them and imo is going to get slaughtered Hannibal style or flip flop or a combo with some men in the rear flipping sides.

Euron achieving victory seems really far fetched, but also plot necessary so I don't even know what to think about his attacks on Highgarden/Oldtown. I definitely think Garlan is a dead man walking though, he's gonna die at the hands of Harlaw.

[HexMachina]

^Ya, seems like we are largely in agreement The Weirwood Eyes, I don't see Jaime being hand or anything like that either. IMO Aegon is sure to sit the throne, and I believe the day he does Dany will take Dragonstone, kind of mimicking the way that the day Harrenhall was finally finished, Aegon landed. Tyrell power is being pressed on all sides, and 1 failure will seriously limit their ability to combat the other threats. Rowan is taken or dead as we know Aegon has Storms End, a force is on its way to meet them and imo is going to get slaughtered Hannibal style or flip flop or a combo with some men in the rear flipping sides.

Euron achieving victory seems really far fetched, but also plot necessary so I don't even know what to think about his attacks on Highgarden/Oldtown. I definitely think Garlan is a dead man walking though, he's gonna die at the hands of Harlaw.

Dany taking Dragonstone on the day Aegon takes KL/is crowned King would also mimic the start of the last Dance too, with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone and Aegon in King's Landing. But I also agree with you, Jaime has washed his hands of Cersei by burning the letter, it would be quite the regression to have him go back and serve her again. (please note, I'm not saying he will never see her again, but that he would never serve her, as he would be doing if he was Hand)

[Lord Damian]

Sansa and Aegon, it is gonna happen. The question is whether Myrcella sits the Iron Throne at all or after Tommen it will be taken directly by Aegon?

[Mithras]

It is clearly foreshadowed that Cersei will burn the KL. So, she must be in charge until the end of the KL, which means neither fAegon nor Dany will take the KL.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^I agree that there is foreshadowing in that department, but is it foreshadowed that she will burn the city, or foreshadowed that she will try? After all, Cersei has not done much succeeding since AGOT. If she actually succeeded, how would Jaime or anyone for that matter get to strangle her? She will already be dead.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Brienne tore a chunk of bread in half, listening to the talk at the other tables. Most of it concerned the death of Lord Tywin Lannister. “Murdered by his own son, they say,” a local man was saying, a cobbler by the look of him, “that vile little dwarf.”

“And the king is just a boy,” said the oldest of the four septas. “Who is to rule us till he comes of age?”

“Lord Tywin’s brother,” said a guardsman. “Or that Lord Tyrell, might be. Or the Kingslayer.”

These are the last three: . Kevan, Mace and Jaime... Kevan is already dead, Mace,ím 100% sure will take up the regency (and stay as hand of the king?)..

Of course Jaime needs time to solve the riverlands and BwB plotlines. but at some point he will take charge of the Lannister army in the riverlands and return to the capital. he has unfinished business.

This i think, will happen simultaneusly with House Tyrells downfall (lost battle of the Mander, lost battle of Storm´s end, lost trial of the faith, tommen´s death by tyene, defection of the reachlords, and so on)..

theres space for another shift in power... say in Twow Tyrells will rule in KL, while tommen is king.. but after the tyrells come crumbling down, a new power vaccum will be filled by jaime... who will rule, or at least have power during Myrcella´s reign

When dany finally marches towards KL, Cersei burns down the city.. Jaime will try to save it, by killing her, but eventually fail.

Point being, there is IMO, time for Sansa to arrive back to KL during Jaime´s turn, in which she won´t be executed asap. He won´t allow it.

that is, in my opinion the only way the plot could develop for her to go back to KL..

[Lady Winter Rose]

How did Jaime become hand? Is everyone forgetting that GRRM said multiple people will sit the Iron Throne before the end? Its not just going to be Lannisters and then Dany.

Even if he decides to write 8th book, there's really no time to introduce new kings and queens other than Lannister and Dany.

For f**ks sake, George, why did you have to loose time on ACOK and ASOS? Currently, the biggest problem with finishing these books is authors potential senility, not his weight.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Lady Winter Rose

[Led]

It is clearly foreshadowed that Cersei will burn the KL. So, she must be in charge until the end of the KL, which means neither fAegon nor Dany will take the KL.

She doesn't really have to be in charge for that... Could be that she escapes imprisonment only to burn down the city, or hides and comes back later or something :dunno:

Then again, there's nothing saying the city and keep has to remain around the Iron Throne when these others are sitting on it :lol:

I'm pretty sure Dany will arrive after the burning of King's Landing though... tho that's mostly based on that scene from House of the Undying in the show, where she walked through the ruins of the Red Keep while ash (or snow?) fell from above. Can't remember if it's mentioned in the books as well, but I don't think so?

[Maia]

Narratively, Sansa becoming a ruling queen and a player does not make sense.

Yes it does. Westeros is not a meritocracy and Sansa is already near the pinnacle of this society by birth. With some luck she might end up in a position of power. She'll also try to become a player after her experiences of being a pawn and LF's lectures on the subject.

She didnot accomplish anything, she didnot learn anything, she didnot show any light. LF is simply toying with her..

What could she have realistically accomplished at her age and in her situation? Who could have achieved more? And LF has toyed with much more experienced and supposedly highly competent people, not being able to match him at not quite 14 is no strike against anybody. Heck, LF himself had been a naive idiot at an older age, so what?

As to "she didn't learn anything", you seem to be a tad biased, no?

Re: "operation save the bird" - it reads like Titus Andronicus. Everybody dies! Pointlessly. You don't seem to have much use for Arya either. Hm... No "lone wolf dies, but a pack survives" for the Starks in your scenario, it seems. Just an excuse to kill as many prominent characters as possible in a highly convoluted manner.

Personally, I am going to be annoyed if we won't see the concerns of Winter and impending Long Night come more to the fore in this volume. Civil wars have become a bit too repetitive.

[Mithras]

She doesn't really have to be in charge for that... Could be that she escapes imprisonment only to burn down the city, or hides and comes back later or something :dunno:

Then again, there's nothing saying the city and keep has to remain around the Iron Throne when these others are sitting on it :lol:

I'm pretty sure Dany will arrive after the burning of King's Landing though... tho that's mostly based on that scene from House of the Undying in the show, where she walked through the ruins of the Red Keep while ash (or snow?) fell from above. Can't remember if it's mentioned in the books as well, but I don't think so?

Yes she does. Otherwise, how can she order the pyromancers produce more wildfire and Qyburn assist their deployment process secretly?

[ADanceWithCats]

Yes it does. Westeros is not a meritocracy and Sansa is already near the pinnacle of this society by birth. With some luck she might end up in a position of power. She'll also try to become a player after her experiences of being a pawn and LF's lectures on the subject.

Well, to be fair, one of the things she's learning is that it's better to be the power behind the power. :D

I posted how she will slay LF here and in many places including this very thread, I posted how she will end up in KL and what she can do there.

[...]

Ned was concerned for his daughters. Ned’s spirit might ask Jon to save them when the time comes. The Hour of the Wolf represents a Stark coming down to the KL, kicking ass, doing justice and leaving. Also noteworthy that Maegor (Cersei's parallel) was last seen alive during the hour of the wolf.

Serious advice. Consider that you may suffer from apophenia.

Sansa is a protagonist on a narrative journey. The question is, what sort of a journey would be satisfying? Now, I laugh at SanSans often, but at least they have a clear vision of what sort of a journey would satisfy them: Sansa finding a boyfriend protector in Sandor, keeping to him this time, and living happily ever after. I personally find this idea obnoxious and abrasive - as I mentioned, I ship SanPow, i.e. Sansa/Power: Sansa becoming empowered on her own. So, my idea of Sansa's arc is Littlefinger-based: "the student uses her skills to surpass her master and avenge her family"; what would preferably happen to her afterwards would be becoming the power behind the throne.

Well then... but what's yours?

Edited April 16, 2015 by ADanceWithCats 😸

[Led]

Yes she does. Otherwise, how can she order the pyromancers produce more wildfire and Qyburn assist their deployment process secretly?

Aren't there still a lot of caches from Aerys II's reign left undiscovered, hidden throughout King's Landing? All of them growing more unstable over time, so that a jolt or heat can set it off (and to top it off, they can cause chain reactions)? She would just have to find one of those.

[Mithras]

Aren't there still a lot of caches from Aerys II's reign left undiscovered, hidden throughout King's Landing? All of them growing more unstable over time, so that a jolt or heat can set it off (and to top it off, they can cause chain reactions)? She would just have to find one of those.

Most of them were discovered, transported and used in Blackwater. There still seems to be some caches beneath the Red Keep. While Varys was smuggling Tyrion out, he put out his torch at a certain section. The point of the wildfire plot was to destroy the invading host along with the city. So, if Cersei sees that as the only option to stand against Dany or fAegon marching on the KL, she will order new wildfire caches to be made and planted across the city.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well, to be fair, one of the things she's learning is that it's better to be the power behind the power. :D

Serious advice. Consider that you may suffer from apophenia.

Sansa is a protagonist on a narrative journey. The question is, what sort of a journey would be satisfying? Now, I laugh at SanSans often, but at least they have a clear vision of what sort of a journey would satisfy them: Sansa finding a boyfriend protector in Sandor, keeping to him this time, and living happily ever after. I personally find this idea obnoxious and abrasive - as I mentioned, I ship SanPow, i.e. Sansa/Power: Sansa becoming empowered on her own. So, my idea of Sansa's arc is Littlefinger-based: "the student uses her skills to surpass her master and avenge her family"; what would preferably happen to her afterwards would be becoming the power behind the throne.

Well then... but what's yours?

I agree with quite a lot of what you have said here. And laughed my arse off at your comment re Apophenia.

I felt the same way whilst reading Mithras's post And I read it twice because I thought maybe it was just me who couldn't see how the dots connected.

I agree Sansa is a Protagonist, and she is on a journey, and that she is learning the safer position is to be the power behind the throne, not sitting the throne yourself. I agree that she is staying with LF for the time being, and has much to learn still, before surpassing him. I believe she will kill him. I believe she will join with her siblings and avenge the Starks, that her role in the story is as the political manipulator for team Stark.

I am however a Sansan, but I think you seem to believe something which in my experience discussing sanSan the majority of people just don't think/feel.

I have not met anyone yet who thinks the story in relation to them is her finding a "boyfriend protector" and sticking with him living happily ever after. Most people see it as a part of Sansa's journey, that she moves from placidly accepting whatever man her family choose for her, finding beauty in him no matter what (she has mentioned Septa Mordane's advice on this more than once.) believing that she has to alter herself, that she is responsible for the success of her marriage that it is her place to pander to the man, and suppress herself in order to please him. And progressing past that to a woman who makes her own choice as to who to be with, and wishes to be loved for herself, changing to the kind of person who insists upon not changing for a man.

And that her falling in love with sandor Clegane is that journey. He is not a man her family would chose, he is not socially acceptable, he doesn't want her to pander to him, he wants her to look out for her own self, he implores her in KL to open her eyes.

The story is a lovely take on Beauty & the Beast, but also a fantastic story of female empowerment, choosing Sandor is a triumph now do SanSan's think it will be a perfect story of a happy ending? No most think that they will be sexually together, and that beyond that there are several possibilities. One that they wed and he simply is cool with having a socially more prestigious wife. This has happened in book and there is no reason to feel he wouldn't be cool with that. he doesn't value status for himself at all. In which case maybe they are happy and so what if they are? another possibility is they don't marry but he is her sworn shield Breakbones to her Rhaenyra. And the last option is that they fuck and confirm their love and then he dies.

I think the main mistake people make when laughing at the SanSan's is they think we all are sat swooning and wishing for a mills & boon ending. Nope. Most are like me, they see the story, and don't deny the attraction. SanSan isn't some random fantasy ship, like SanGon, or Sandric, or any of the other textually unfounded ships folk make up. The relationship between these two characters is in the text, we see his growing infatuation with her from the moment they meet, we see her slowly growing to trust him, to overcome his scars, to see the man within, to want to gentle his heart, and this is B&tB in a nutshell, is it not? and GRRM has said how much he loves that story. Sandor leaves KL, and attempts to take her with him, but her story requires her to end up with her tutor LF, so the author makes a reason for her to turn down the offer, the Tyrell marriage, she thinks there is a safer route out on the horizon, she also has dontos promising her an out. Why risk simply making a run for it in the midst of battle, when there seems to be a safer route out, And at this point she has not realised her feelings for him. But the author makes it clear that this story isn't over it's just on the back burner, he writes her recalling a Kiss, and repeatedly fantasising about that false memory, she wants to scandalise the other maids by telling them, she keeps his cloak, she thinks of him repeatedly and dreams of him in her bed. He talks about her over and again, and loses his shit when he finds out she was married to tyrion, he is thinking of her in his dying breath, or so it seems, the blustering cries of rape and heart ripping out is just typical Sandor bravado, he uses his roughness as a shield, for his broken heart, He is saying this is ripping my heart out when he says that. The romance is in the story, not in the readers heads. This is why people ship them, because the author is shipping them. The people who acknowledge that aspect of the story aren't sitting by a window gazing wet eyed into the distance dreaming of him riding up on a white charger and sweeping her up to safety (though you will note that GRRM had him do just that during the riots.) we are simply reading the book.

I hope that seeing as much of how we both view sansa's story is similar that discussion can be enriching. I know I appreciate it when I read another poster who isn't freaking out about her going along with LF's plans and wishing for her to instantly get away from him. because I see that this is her story, she is by LF's side in order to learn. I have every faith that this does not indicate she will be "darthsansa" in the long run, loosing her morality and warping into a cold blooded monster. It just means she has shit to learn from him.....for now.

[ADanceWithCats]

I hope that seeing as much of how we both view sansa's story is similar that discussion can be enriching. I know I appreciate it when I read another poster who isn't freaking out about her going along with LF's plans and wishing for her to instantly get away from him. because I see that this is her story, she is by LF's side in order to learn. I have every faith that this does not indicate she will be "darthsansa" in the long run, loosing her morality and warping into a cold blooded monster. It just means she has shit to learn from him.....for now.

Yeah, OK. I can appreciate your position, and thank you for explaining it! I still respectfully disagree - I don't deny that the attraction existed, mind you, I just think that ultimately, it has already served its narrative purpose (brought Sandor to a happy place, took Sansa through a pretty dark time). But I certainly can appreciate your position. And hey, can happen, why not. Shipping San/Pow means that, if, at the end of all things, Sansa is given and makes this particular choice, it's OK, too.

I mostly wrote that I 'laugh' at SanSans because those I did find to be the loudest were those with this very instant instinctive aversion towards Littlefinger, especially if the possibility of her working with him and liking him (as opposed to "being played by him" and... uh, "being played by him") is mentioned. "But he killed her father!" Well, duh, but why are you judging Sansa for this? She doesn't know! "Well then, someone and/or the narrative should remind her!" Welp. Anything not to put her in that situation.

It's as if those people suffer from the black/white madonna/whore complex, and if Sansa gets even a bit dirty or wrong, strays from the path they see as correct, they won't be able to stand it. And, I mean, by now I think we all know that the only people who survive in this series are those who are willing to go dirty and to compromise black-and-white morals.

So, there's that, for all that it matters.

Edited April 16, 2015 by ADanceWithCats 😸