[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I researched the timeline:

What's adding to the puzzle of the tourney is the timeline. I looked at a timeline and it suggests that the day Sansa left the Eyrie for the Gates of the Moon, and the day Bri was hung and released by LS were the same day. Fifth month, fourth day, year 300. Bri meets up with Jamie and they disappear on Fifth month, twenty third day, year 300, so that would be 19 days, almost three weeks later.

The timeline for the last couple books is extremely unreliable and that counts double for Sansa.

[Mithras]

The timeline for the last couple books is extremely unreliable and that counts double for Sansa.

George's biggest mistake was to sacrifice the chronology in favor of telling a seemingly more complete story in the First Act (AGoT-ACoK-ASoS). He should have sticked to the chronology and introduced ironborn-Dorne chapters in ASoS. Meanwhile, some ASoS material ahead of other events should be spared to AFfC.

George is now struggling with the problems of his own creation.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I researched the timeline:

What's adding to the puzzle of the tourney is the timeline. I looked at a timeline and it suggests that the day Sansa left the Eyrie for the Gates of the Moon, and the day Bri was hung and released by LS were the same day. Fifth month, fourth day, year 300. Bri meets up with Jamie and they disappear on Fifth month, twenty third day, year 300, so that would be 19 days, almost three weeks later.

Enough time for Ser Shadrich to have left and let RLers know Sansa is there so Brienne + Jaimie can go fetch her :)

[LongRider]

Enough time for Ser Shadrich to have left and let RLers know Sansa is there so Brienne + Jaimie can go fetch her :)

Having discussed the Bri/Jaimie 'meetup' before it was pointed out to me that why Bri may have met Jaime on her own, would the BWB let her travel there and back unescorted? In other words, she's still their prisoner, so perhaps they were just offstage and Bri took him directly to them?

[Mithras]

Enough time for Ser Shadrich to have left and let RLers know Sansa is there so Brienne + Jaimie can go fetch her :)

I think Brienne champions Jaime in the trial by combat and saves his lame ass. Then, Jaime gets free but Brienne is stuck with UnCat until she remembers that Cat swore to let her go should Brienne asks to avenge Renly. So, Brienne will leave UnCat and head North to make that attempt.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Mithras

[LongRider]

The timeline for the last couple books is extremely unreliable and that counts double for Sansa.

I used this timeline; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

[Lord Damian]

So, is it fair to say,

1- if Sansa is whisked away from the Vale, out from LF's nose by friendly forces, they will take her North, through Frey infested lands to:

A - Wintefell if seccured by Stark Friendly forces or Stannis?

B - Greywater Watch and the Crannogmen?

C - to be in the company of BWB + possibly Gruncle Bryden the Blackfish and maybe Jeyne Westerling?

D - White Harbor if news of Rickon alive and secure there with Davos?

2- If whisked away by unfriendly forces it can be to only take her to King's Landing ?

3- The Mountain clans take her to marry her to someone like they have to other noble women before ?

Edited April 24, 2015 by Lord Damian

[aryagonnakill#2]

^If Shadrich works for Varys as he said, then that could mean taking her to Pentos for safekeeping, as he would not want Cersei getting her hands on Sansa.

Edit: Not that I think Sansa is going to be kidknapped at all.

Edited April 24, 2015 by aryagonnakill#2

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I used this timeline; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

I do take part in the corresponding discussion thread. A lot of the latter dates are based more on best wishes than reliable data. The "Assumptions" page mentions that as well.

[clair de lune]

I actually think it would be fascinating if Sansa was forced for the first time to use her court politic training after being kidnapped, in a setting outside of where the training was intended. The idea of her ending up at Greywater is interesting.

Sansa being the person to meet Howland Reed would be great. After all her experience, I know she'd ask the right questions.

[Lord Damian]

I actually think it would be fascinating if Sansa was forced for the first time to use her court politic training after being kidnapped, in a setting outside of where the training was intended. The idea of her ending up at Greywater is interesting.

Sansa being the person to meet Howland Reed would be great. After all her experience, I know she'd ask the right questions.

Whether people like it or not, the hints based on the show knowing towards the end game and book foreshadowing that she will go back North eventually have her moving in that direction. Greywater would be a safe -stepping stone in that direction. Besides, the hour is getting late, story wise and it is about time Howland Reed made an appearance.

[Mithras]

Whether people like it or not, the hints based on the show knowing towards the end game and book foreshadowing that she will go back North eventually have her moving in that direction. Greywater would be a safe -stepping stone in that direction. Besides, the hour is getting late, story wise and it is about time Howland Reed made an appearance.

Let us talk again If she still stays in the North after this season ;)

Edited May 1, 2015 by Mithras

[LongRider]

I actually think it would be fascinating if Sansa was forced for the first time to use her court politic training after being kidnapped, in a setting outside of where the training was intended. The idea of her ending up at Greywater is interesting.

Sansa being the person to meet Howland Reed would be great. After all her experience, I know she'd ask the right questions.

I love the idea of Sansa in Greywater Watch!

Whether people like it or not, the hints based on the show knowing towards the end game and book foreshadowing that she will go back North eventually have her moving in that direction. Greywater would be a safe -stepping stone in that direction. Besides, the hour is getting late, story wise and it is about time Howland Reed made an appearance.

They claim to know the end game, so what. They've changed the story and the players so much that I think HBO's end game and GRRM's endgame will be very different. Looking for spoilers from S5? From what I've seen, you won't find much that can really be counted on.

[SayGen]

What I got out of it.

[1] Setup Setup Setup. Nothing really happens in this chapter. It's all setup for whatever is going to happen next, presumably with the coming tournament to serve as the setting. No wonder GRRM and his editor decided to bump it.

[2] "Lemon-gate" continues: We now learn that those lemons do not grow in the Vale. When they run out, they have to be imported .... all the way from Dorne. Not even from somewhere closer like Pentos, or the Stormlands. Note that the Vale is about 200 miles SOUTH of Braavos.

[3] Stark Girls Love Lemon Cakes. Arya & Sansa's love for lemon cakes keeps getting mentioned. Even Sweetrobin's love of lemoncakes is secondary to Sansa's. Is this symbolic in some way?

[4] Tournament: the Jousting is "invitation only" but not the melee. This is an opportunity for some unexpected character to appear. But who? Note that three of the best tournament warriors in Westeros are currently missing in action: Brienne, Sandor and Jaime.

[5] Sweetrobin's Burning Ears: How does he know what Harry is saying behind his back? Did a little bird tell him? Is Robin a bird-warg? Does this explain the flapping he does when he goes in his fits?

Not sure what your point 4 is. All your best picks are befuddling.

Jaime hasn't proven capable since the losing of his hand. Brienne has only beaten one skilled opponent on even ground, and Sandor hasn't been mentioned since his potential cameo as a graveyard digger.

Also do we know if Brianne is even still alive?

Edited May 1, 2015 by SayGen

[aryagonnakill#2]

^1 skilled opponent? What the hell is your definition of skilled? I consider Loras skilled, I consider Rorge skilled, shagwell and the other 2 are both experienced sellswords who survived numerous battles, Jaime Lannister wasn't skilled? She won a melee where everyone targeted her, just because you don't like her doesn't make her not a badass warrior.

[ChillyPolly]

Not sure what your point 4 is. All your best picks are befuddling.

Jaime hasn't proven capable since the losing of his hand. Brienne has only beaten one skilled opponent on even ground, and Sandor hasn't been mentioned since his potential cameo as a graveyard digger.

Also do we know if Brianne is even still alive?

(1) This is fantasy. Jaime may get himself a new hand. This has already been set up with: the healing of his hand by the occultist Qyburn; him receiving hand made of gold (but not animated ... yet); his rejection of the Faith of the Seven because they would not give him a new hand; the prophesy of the valonqar strangling Cersei with its HANDS; Bonifers warning to Jaime about revenants; and his rendezvous with the forces of darkness in the form of the revenant UnBrienne.

(2) Brienne is obviously a top tier fighter. I don't see the point of quibbling about how many other top-tier fighters we have observed her defeat first hand. One (Loras) is enough to prove this. And when she fought Jaime they were BOTH at a disadvantage, seeing as she was trying NOT to kill him.

(3) Right. Sandor hasn't been mentioned since he was last mentioned .... yet. I don't think this means his arc is over.

(4) No, we don't know that Brienne is "alive" in the full and proper sense. I think she is now a revenant and a monster. But that won't necessarily prevent her from showing up at a tournament.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ChillyPolly

[SayGen]

^1 skilled opponent? What the hell is your definition of skilled? I consider Loras skilled, I consider Rorge skilled, shagwell and the other 2 are both experienced sellswords who survived numerous battles, Jaime Lannister wasn't skilled? She won a melee where everyone targeted her, just because you don't like her doesn't make her not a badass warrior.

the 1 was Loras where she won her right to be in the Kingsgaurd via Renly.

Rorge, what were his accomplishments again? Shagwell was crazy and even Jamie said he wasn't any good. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shagwell

2 bit mercenary on their best day, laughable sell swords any other day.

Jamie was starved, beat, sleep deprived, unsheltered, shackled, Go back and read what he went through under Stark control. Wasn't even close to a fair fight.

Also your confusing me with someone else, that or you just like to put words in the mouths of others. I do like Brienne, I just think she is over hyped by most of her 'fans'.

Her story arc is great, and compelling....her fighting ability (or lack thereof) doesn't take away from that.

Can you provide the melee location, I would be interested in rereading that bit. I recall it but not enough to pass judgment. Perhaps I'll change my mind after rereading it.

(1) This is fantasy. Jaime may get himself a new hand. This has already been set up with: the healing of his hand by the occultist Qyburn; him receiving hand made of gold (but not animated ... yet); his rejection of the Faith of the Seven because they would not give him a new hand; the prophesy of the valonqar strangling Cersei with its HANDS; Bonifers warning to Jaime about revenants; and his rendezvous with the forces of darkness in the form of the revenant UnBrienne.

(2) Brienne is obviously a top tier fighter. I don't see the point of quibbling about how many other top-tier fighters we have observed her defeat first hand. One (Loras) is enough to prove this. And when she fought Jaime they were BOTH at a disadvantage, seeing as she was trying NOT to kill him.

(3) Right. Sandor hasn't been mentioned since he was last mentioned .... yet. I don't think this means his arc is over.

(4) No, we don't know that Brienne is "alive" in the full and proper sense. I think she is now a revenant and a monster. But that won't necessarily prevent her from showing up at a tournament.

Brianne was not nearly at the same disadvantage. please be serious, I know this is all books and fantasy, but come on.

Sandor again, like Jamie was FAR from his best. Seems like she runs into her best challengers when they are at their lowest. Argue that.

[SayGen]

^1 skilled opponent? What the hell is your definition of skilled? I consider Loras skilled, I consider Rorge skilled, shagwell and the other 2 are both experienced sellswords who survived numerous battles, Jaime Lannister wasn't skilled? She won a melee where everyone targeted her, just because you don't like her doesn't make her not a badass warrior.

the 1 was Loras where she won her right to be in the Kingsgaurd via Renly.

Rorge, what were his accomplishments again? Shagwell was crazy and even Jamie said he wasn't any good. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shagwell

2 bit mercenary on their best day, laughable sell swords any other day.

Jamie was starved, beat, sleep deprived, unsheltered, shackled, Go back and read what he went through under Stark control. Wasn't even close to a fair fight.

Also your confusing me with someone else, that or you just like to put words in the mouths of others. I do like Brienne, I just think she is over hyped by most of her 'fans'.

Her story arc is great, and compelling....her fighting ability (or lack thereof) doesn't take away from that.

Can you provide the melee location, I would be interested in rereading that bit. I recall it but not enough to pass judgment. Perhaps I'll change my mind after rereading it.

(1) This is fantasy. Jaime may get himself a new hand. This has already been set up with: the healing of his hand by the occultist Qyburn; him receiving hand made of gold (but not animated ... yet); his rejection of the Faith of the Seven because they would not give him a new hand; the prophesy of the valonqar strangling Cersei with its HANDS; Bonifers warning to Jaime about revenants; and his rendezvous with the forces of darkness in the form of the revenant UnBrienne.

(2) Brienne is obviously a top tier fighter. I don't see the point of quibbling about how many other top-tier fighters we have observed her defeat first hand. One (Loras) is enough to prove this. And when she fought Jaime they were BOTH at a disadvantage, seeing as she was trying NOT to kill him.

(3) Right. Sandor hasn't been mentioned since he was last mentioned .... yet. I don't think this means his arc is over.

(4) No, we don't know that Brienne is "alive" in the full and proper sense. I think she is now a revenant and a monster. But that won't necessarily prevent her from showing up at a tournament.

Brianne was not nearly at the same disadvantage. please be serious, I know this is all books and fantasy, but come on.

Sandor again, like Jamie was FAR from his best. Seems like she runs into her best challengers when they are at their lowest. Argue that.

[ChillyPolly]

Brianne was not nearly at the same disadvantage. please be serious, I know this is all books and fantasy, but come on.
Sandor again, like Jamie was FAR from his best. Seems like she runs into her best challengers when they are at their lowest. Argue that.

No. I'm not interested in a "who is better" argument. Sorry. I merely said that Brienne was a top-tier fighter ... one who could show up at a tournament and plausibly make a good showing. Yes, I know you REALLY REALLY want to think that your man Jaime is better, but I don't care if he is or not, and I don't think the books resolve the issue. Brienne is VERY VERY good. She is good enough to be accepted into Renly's kingsguard despite her sex. She is someone who can plausibly go toe-to-toe with other top-tier fighters, and possibly even beat them. Whether she defeats them or not will depend on circumstances (whether "unfair" or not), and the circumstances are up to GRRM.

Brienne never fought Sandor at all. The only "Hound" she ever fought was Rorge. You are confusing the books with the show.

[SayGen]

No. I'm not interested in a "who is better" argument. Sorry. I merely said that Brienne was a top-tier fighter ... one who could show up at a tournament and plausibly make a good showing. Yes, I know you REALLY REALLY want to think that your man Jaime is better, but I don't care if he is or not, and I don't think the books resolve the issue. Brienne is VERY VERY good. She is good enough to be accepted into Renly's kingsguard despite her sex. She is someone who can plausibly go toe-to-toe with other top-tier fighters, and possibly even beat them. Whether she defeats them or not will depend on circumstances (whether "unfair" or not), and the circumstances are up to GRRM.

Brienne never fought Sandor at all. The only "Hound" she ever fought was Rorge. You are confusing the books with the show.

Ah yes your right, I do that more often than I care to admit.