[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Endymion I Targaryen]

All these about Winged Knights and Robert Baratheon's tapestries seem to me like a preparation for the kingdom of the Vale and LF as King Regent.

[A Ghost of Someone]

All these about Winged Knights and Robert Baratheon's tapestries seem to me like a preparation for the kingdom of the Vale and LF as King Regent.

a previous poster speculated that Littlefnger may have a surprise wedding there with everyone present. Sansa/Allayne seems all exicted that it was her idea and seems awash in the excitement, something willl get twisted. That is how Littlefinger rolls.

[Newstar]

I think Sansa will be Aegon VI Queen.

This seems unlikely, although I admit that Littlefinger's in a bit of a pickle with the annulment, as he can't secure one without effectively outing Sansa, and he doesn't want to out Sansa until she marries, which she can't do until she gets an annulment. I think it is possible that Littlefinger decides to speed up the Harry marriage for whatever reason and marries Sansa off notwithstanding her marriage to Tyrion, gambling that Tyrion is indeed dead (or producing fake proof of Tyrion's death, who knows?). He'd have to persuade the Waynwoods that Tyrion is dead, but given that no one's heard of him for months, it shouldn't be that hard, and if Harry is indeed entranced with Sansa, he wouldn't need much convincing.

As dangerous as it is to use the show as a basis to argue for future events in the books, the show changed the rules to do away with TV Sansa's marriage by stating that non-consummation automatically voids a marriage. I suspect that in the books, Sansa's marriage may also be ignored by Littlefinger in spite of the different annulment rules in the books, if Littlefinger is in a hurry for Sansa to remarry. Book Sansa could indeed wind up an unintentional bigamist.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Newstar

[chrisdaw]

Well, the Hardying at the tourney of Ashford died... I have come around to thinking that is LF's real plan anyway, his ruse with Sansa is just so he is not suspected.

Nah, if Harry were to die while at the Gates of the Moon in the care of Nestor and LF then Yohn will be out for their blood regardless of how it happens, and LF would know this.

[Isobel Harper]

Nah, if Harry were to die while at the Gates of the Moon in the care of Nestor and LF then Yohn will be out for their blood regardless of how it happens, and LF would know this.

And so does Lyn Corbray, whose loyalty to LF is uncertain. If Harry is set up as Lyn's opponent, things may not turn out so well for him.

[chrisdaw]

Right.

And on the side but possibly relevant, someone who might not mind seeing Harry dead as per this chapter is SR, where he got this idea that Harry wants him dead for his claim seems a real question, though what patronage he is capable of presently bestowing on someone willing to do his bidding is debateable.

[Newstar]

a previous poster speculated that Littlefnger may have a surprise wedding there with everyone present. Sansa/Allayne seems all exicted that it was her idea and seems awash in the excitement, something willl get twisted. That is how Littlefinger rolls.

I agree that something's going to go wrong, but this chapter set up so many potential ticking time bombs--Lyn's anger, Myranda's resentment, Sweetrobin's jealousy, Ser Shadrich's insinuations, Harry's involvement in a dangerous tournament, etc.--that it's hard to know which one's going to go off first.

Sansa was so pleased with herself for coming up with the whole Winged Knight business that I suspect that in particular will blow up in her face, although I doubt that will take the form of Harry the Heir dying in the tourney.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Newstar

[Veltigar]

I think Sansa will bestow her favour to Ser Wallace Waynwood and that Ser Lynn is going to whale on him in the joust or melee to get back at Sansa.

[Wouter]

I think Sansa will bestow her favour to Ser Wallace Waynwood and that Ser Lynn is going to whale on him in the joust or melee to get back at Sansa.

I suspect something similar. Sansa seems to like Wallace, and it is a good candidate to get her favour in order to make Harry jealous. Sansa would realise she unwittingly provoked his death, by the combination of provoking ser Lynn and making Wallace a target by giving him her favour.

I don't think an Aegon-Sansa marriage is going to come up because:

-All of Aegon's backers want him to marry Dany, who is by far the most politically interesting bride (legitimacy + dragons + extra army + uniting claims of Targs and Blackfyres)

-If the Dany thing does not happen, one likely reason is that Aegon himself has other ideas, most likely by falling for one of the Dornish women coming to see him (Arianne or young Elia). He cannot fall for Sansa because he won't see her.

-Illyrio and Varys are the engineers behind Aegon's claim, and they consider LF to be a dangerous competitor. They are unlikely to want any involvement of Aegon with someone (Sansa) who obviously is a pawn of LF. Especially if they suspect LF wants Sansa for himself, which would guarantee an attempt at Aegon's life at some point if he would be married to Sansa.

-Connington may not be aware of LF's reputation, but he hates the Starks and contrary to other Targ/Blackfyre supporters he also has it in for Lyanna. He is very likely to be against a marriage to a daughter of Eddard Stark, who helped murder his friend/king.

-Sansa herself does not guarantee the support of the Vale; to get the Vale armies, the idea is that she marries Sweetrobin or Harry. Lord Royce or lady Waynwood would have no reason to send troops to support Aegon if Sansa marries Aegon, at least no reasons they wouldn't have otherwise.

-And Aegon himself is well aware that Tyrion is still alive; he is unlikely to want to become Sansa's second husband while he knows Tyrion is probably alive.

-A meta-reason: Aegon is a dead-end, he will enjoy temporary success but he will not be able to stand against Dany when the Second Dance comes around. This was predicted by the visions in the house of the Undying. I don't think Sansa is in the books to go down with Aegon; that seems something Arianne is being set up for, antagonism towards Dany and all. I rather think Sansa will end up as an ambassador of sort for the Starks, at Dany's court. The marriage to Tyrion might be a plus on that front, for once.

[Veltigar]

I suspect something similar. Sansa seems to like Wallace, and it is a good candidate to get her favour in order to make Harry jealous. Sansa would realise she unwittingly provoked his death, by the combination of provoking ser Lynn and making Wallace a target by giving him her favour.

I don't know if Ser Wallace would actually die, but I do think he'll get seriously trashed at the very least. Possibly even dieing as a result of Ser Lynn's fury. I think Sansa will give Ser Wallace her favour more because she feels sorry for him. Like, if she really wanted to make Ser Harry as jealous as possible, Ser Roland would be the best possible bet. But Sansa is still a kind person and I think Ser Wallace is going to excell for a while wearing her token. He'll get a big confidence boost out of it, only to be broken as a twig by Ser Lynn.

I don't think an Aegon-Sansa marriage is going to come up because:

-All of Aegon's backers want him to marry Dany, who is by far the most politically interesting bride (legitimacy + dragons + extra army + uniting claims of Targs and Blackfyres)

-If the Dany thing does not happen, one likely reason is that Aegon himself has other ideas, most likely by falling for one of the Dornish women coming to see him (Arianne or young Elia). He cannot fall for Sansa because he won't see her.

-Illyrio and Varys are the engineers behind Aegon's claim, and they consider LF to be a dangerous competitor. They are unlikely to want any involvement of Aegon with someone (Sansa) who obviously is a pawn of LF. Especially if they suspect LF wants Sansa for himself, which would guarantee an attempt at Aegon's life at some point if he would be married to Sansa.

-Connington may not be aware of LF's reputation, but he hates the Starks and contrary to other Targ/Blackfyre supporters he also has it in for Lyanna. He is very likely to be against a marriage to a daughter of Eddard Stark, who helped murder his friend/king.

-Sansa herself does not guarantee the support of the Vale; to get the Vale armies, the idea is that she marries Sweetrobin or Harry. Lord Royce or lady Waynwood would have no reason to send troops to support Aegon if Sansa marries Aegon, at least no reasons they wouldn't have otherwise.

-And Aegon himself is well aware that Tyrion is still alive; he is unlikely to want to become Sansa's second husband while he knows Tyrion is probably alive.

-A meta-reason: Aegon is a dead-end, he will enjoy temporary success but he will not be able to stand against Dany when the Second Dance comes around. This was predicted by the visions in the house of the Undying. I don't think Sansa is in the books to go down with Aegon; that seems something Arianne is being set up for, antagonism towards Dany and all. I rather think Sansa will end up as an ambassador of sort for the Starks, at Dany's court. The marriage to Tyrion might be a plus on that front, for once.

I agree with your reasoning regarding the Faegon-Sansa pairing. In particular, I like the bolded part. From what little we know of the first two Arianne chapters, it seems as if she's really being built up to resent Daenerys. I think it's quite likely that she'll marry Faegon in order to become Queen.

[AllOfTheHours]

I suspect something similar. Sansa seems to like Wallace, and it is a good candidate to get her favour in order to make Harry jealous. Sansa would realise she unwittingly provoked his death, by the combination of provoking ser Lynn and making Wallace a target by giving him her favour.

I don't think an Aegon-Sansa marriage is going to come up because:

-All of Aegon's backers want him to marry Dany, who is by far the most politically interesting bride (legitimacy + dragons + extra army + uniting claims of Targs and Blackfyres)

-If the Dany thing does not happen, one likely reason is that Aegon himself has other ideas, most likely by falling for one of the Dornish women coming to see him (Arianne or young Elia). He cannot fall for Sansa because he won't see her.

-Illyrio and Varys are the engineers behind Aegon's claim, and they consider LF to be a dangerous competitor. They are unlikely to want any involvement of Aegon with someone (Sansa) who obviously is a pawn of LF. Especially if they suspect LF wants Sansa for himself, which would guarantee an attempt at Aegon's life at some point if he would be married to Sansa.

-Connington may not be aware of LF's reputation, but he hates the Starks and contrary to other Targ/Blackfyre supporters he also has it in for Lyanna. He is very likely to be against a marriage to a daughter of Eddard Stark, who helped murder his friend/king.

-Sansa herself does not guarantee the support of the Vale; to get the Vale armies, the idea is that she marries Sweetrobin or Harry. Lord Royce or lady Waynwood would have no reason to send troops to support Aegon if Sansa marries Aegon, at least no reasons they wouldn't have otherwise.

-And Aegon himself is well aware that Tyrion is still alive; he is unlikely to want to become Sansa's second husband while he knows Tyrion is probably alive.

-A meta-reason: Aegon is a dead-end, he will enjoy temporary success but he will not be able to stand against Dany when the Second Dance comes around. This was predicted by the visions in the house of the Undying. I don't think Sansa is in the books to go down with Aegon; that seems something Arianne is being set up for, antagonism towards Dany and all. I rather think Sansa will end up as an ambassador of sort for the Starks, at Dany's court. The marriage to Tyrion might be a plus on that front, for once.

I agree too. I don't see Sansa and Aegon running into each other anytime soon (at least not before Arianne and Dany come across him first). I think Sansa is headed North (although I am loathe to use the show as a reason something will happen in the books), I think the last scene where Theon

reveals her brothers are alive

could point to a big Stark reunion at the Wall (Jon, Rickon, Sansa, and perhaps Arya when she returns from Braavos).

I don't really see anything for Sansa in the South and I think the possibility of spending chapters watching her and Aegon fall in love just sounds tedious to me.

[chrisdaw]

Nothing South for Sansa, besides the game she's been unwittingly groomed to play, the would be knight and protector she has romantic feelings for, the soul searching fallen knight for whom she represents the last chance for honour, the honourable knight duty bound by an oath to her mother to protect her, her returning husband and behind LF the most antagonistic force in her story, the real slayer of her wolf and conveniently set to be cast down queen.

North we have a dead Jon, a character whom she's given about two lines of thought towards in the whole series, probably set to enter wolf mode, and the husk of Winterfell. What riveting potential there.

[AllOfTheHours]

Nothing South for Sansa, besides the game she's been unwittingly groomed to play

The game she has been groomed to play? You mean by LF? LF has shown her how being outside of KL can give you more power/autonomy than being in KL. In KL, his manipulations were entirely behind the scenes, that is why he had Dontos as a go between. How many times did Ned, Stannis, and Tyrion say they should have killed LF and Varys when they had the chance? And they would have been perfectly at liberty too as higher lords/HotK. His life was constantly at risk, that is why he wanted to leave and marry Lysa (with Sansa in tow), because he could form a power base in the Vale (an army to protect him and some privacy in which to operate more effectively and safely).

Outside of KL and in the middle of the country, LF is a much stronger player since he has claim to the Riverlands (he is lord of Harrenhall), the Vale, and the North (through Sansa). Even LF's plan for Sansa has always been to go North, where her supposed inheritance lies, he has never alluded to her going South again. That is why LF says he wants to marry her to Harry the Heir in the first place: so they can go North to Winterfell from a position of power with the Vale's untouched army behind them.

To the south, Sansa is in a position of weakness, a lone wolf with no power, no true allies, and a large price on her head. To the North lies her three brothers, her father's still loyal vassal lords, and her home. She will be much more effective as a player if she can get to Winterfell and get her family and her vassals behind her, rather than hiding who she is and running around scared in the South.

the would be knight and protector she has romantic feelings for, the soul searching fallen knight for whom she represents the last chance for honour, the honourable knight duty bound by an oath to her mother to protect her, her returning husband and behind LF the most antagonistic force in her story, the real slayer of her wolf and conveniently set to be cast down queen.

Really, so a dead Sandor is more interesting than a dead Jon? Ok, then.

Jaime and Brienne's stories objectify Sansa. She is the damsel they have to rescue, or as you put it, "Jaime's last chance at honor." It's about them: Jamie's honor and Brienne's vows, its not about Sansa as an autonomous character. I have no problem with them helping her, but just because they want to use her to feel good about themselves doesn't mean they're the best path for her.

So we're sure Tyrion is coming back in the next book, that he's going to go South if Sansa is there, and that his plot will include Sansa in a meaningful way? That's a lot of speculation.

LF isn't farther south than Sansa is now. She doesn't have to go south to find him, they're together. I think she will have to deal with him in the Vale before she can go anywhere.

North we have a dead Jon, a character whom she's given about two lines of thought towards in the whole series, probably set to enter wolf mode, and the husk of Winterfell. What riveting potential there.

Really, no plot in the North? Seriously? No, first, in the North we have Rickon and Bran and Jon- Sansa's brothers. Her brothers who are heirs to Winterfell and LC of the NW and will protect/respect her without trying to use her to get something in return. Although Jon may be out of commission at the moment, I believe like most readers that he still has a role to play, and in ADWD we saw just how far he was willing to go to save one of his sisters. He might not be as close to Sansa as Arya, but he kept telling Stannis that Winterfell belongs to her, so I doubt he would let her die alone in the snow. Plus, as their sister and LF's protegee, Sansa can teach her brother's what she has learned about playing the game, the weaknesses of some of the main players in the South, and make Winterfell/the North a stronger realm politically.

Second, even if she doesn't run into her brothers, who else is in the North? Stannis who is looking to install a new Warden of the North after Jon refused him. Although he has an issue with "Lady Lannister" Jon has repeatedly told Stannis that Winterfell should belong to Sansa and many other Northerners believe the same. If LF can annul a marriage, why can't Stannis? Especially after he learns it was not consummated and he sees that she can provide him a means to an end: to unite the North for him?

There are more political opportunities for Sansa in the North. As was saw in GoT with Ned, in the North his authority was supported by loyal vassals and he was powerful. When he went South he became vulnerable, he became overwhelmed by enemies and didn't have enough of his own loyal men beside him to save him (they were all in the North). Likewise Sansa draws power from Winterfell/the North, as we saw in the snow castle scene with LF and SR. She felt Winterfell making her stronger.

And third, in "The Winds of Winter" we have one of the essential conflict of the series: the War with the Others on the horizon. In the original Outline, Jon, Arya, Bran and Catelyn all fought the Others beyond the Wall. The Starks were always intended to reunite and fight the Others after the RW, a lot has changed, but given the Original Outline, the opportunities for Sansa in the North, and the direction of the TV Show, I see her going North.

Edited June 27, 2015 by AllOfTheHours

[chrisdaw]

The game is in KL, it revolves around KL, the culmination of game success is in KL, the North offers not the depth of political machinations to fuel a character arc dedicated to playing the game. LF has a network of relationships which allow him influence and reach that Sansa does not and will not develop in the North.

Sandor is not dead and never was, and yes his relationship with Sansa is infinitely more interesting, intricate and developed than anything relating to the Jon and Sansa non event. And it's not concluded. Sansa isn't going South to hide. Objectification, makes sense, obviously Jaime and Brienne are no longer relevant to Sansa's arc, or her to them, because objectification. The man armoured like the sun and the man with the face of the Hound are going to have to let this one pass, because objectification.

Speculation that the character with the most chapters and highest word count, the author's favourite who he has said is set to come home and who we are blatantly told will cast a large shadow in the middle of dragons, yes I speculate he's going to be going to South Westeros. Wild speculation. Will his plot will include Sansa in any meaningful way? His plot which so far has been half dedicated to explaining his vulnerability to the manipulations of beautiful young women who can play to his yearning for love? Could it possibly intertwine with our young, beautiful developing manipulator? I dunno, maybe if the author had cooked up some crazy method of tying them together it would be clearer. I mean it's not those two whole cordial lines of thought Sansa spares Jon or the nothing about Stannis throughout the series, but there might be something there.

Now regarding Bran, is Sansa going on an expedition on the other side of the wall, or is she going to send an invitation for this Winterfell Stark family reunion party to the cave and Bran will walk to her?

[AllOfTheHours]

The game is in KL, it revolves around KL, the culmination of game success is in KL, the North offers not the depth of political machinations to fuel a character arc dedicated to playing the game. LF has a network of relationships which allow him influence and reach that Sansa does not and will not develop in the North.

I disagree, I think as the books have progressed KL has (and will continue to) become more and more irrelevant. As LC Mormont told Jon in the first book, "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

As for LF, he has more power now that he is out of KL. In KL, he was a servant to the crown who could be dispossed of at will by the King, Queen, and the Hand (Ned, Tywin, Tyrion, are only a few of the people who have threatened his life/wished they had killed him). In KL he couldn't have an army and he couldn't get away with the massive powergrabs he's been up to in the Vale right under the royal family's nose. When Tyrion first offered LF Harrenhall (in his plot alleging it was a reward for marrying Myrcella to SR) Tyrion realized that Harrenhall was more than LF had dared to hope for before. Being Lord of Harrenhall or husband to the Lady of the Eyrie is greater than being Master of Coin, ie. you get any army, you get your own tax money, and you get more autonomy away from the constantly watching eyes of the royalty.

Sandor is not dead and never was, and yes his relationship with Sansa is infinitely more interesting, intricate and developed than anything relating to the Jon and Sansa non event. And it's not concluded. Sansa isn't going South to hide. Objectification, makes sense, obviously Jaime and Brienne are no longer relevant to Sansa's arc, or her to them, because objectification. The man armoured like the sun and the man with the face of the Hound are going to have to let this one pass, because objectification.

GRRM said, “Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There’s only Alayne Stone.” Although it can be argued that Sandor Clegane may have survived and ended on the Quiet Isle, he is isolated on an island with a bad limp, I don't see him scaling the walls of the Eyrie any time soon to rescue Sansa. In fact I don't see him going anywhere any time soon. At the end of the series, when Sansa is no longer and outlaw accused of kingslaying, I could see them crossing paths, but at the moment he can't fight for her and she can't pardon him. What would them meeting accomplish plot wise?

Are you misusing the term objectification just to be a troll or do you truly not understand how Jaime and Brienne's quests for Sansa are objectifying? Also, do you believe that if Jamie and Brienne find her they're going to bring her to KL? I think that is the least likely place in the world for them to bring her, since almost everyone with power there wants her dead or wants to cash in on the price on her head. As Jamie himself thinks, "...if the goods are good she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall." He's not going to be rushing her back to KL so she can try to be a player, he'd get her as far away from notice/power as possible. Pus Brienne wanted to bring her to her mother, if she crosses paths with Sansa she's going to bring her to her last living family (in the North) not to KL (where she was trying to rescue her from in the first place) either.

Speculation that the character with the most chapters and highest word count, the author's favourite who he has said is set to come home and who we are blatantly told will cast a large shadow in the middle of dragons, yes I speculate he's going to be going to South Westeros. Wild speculation. Will his plot will include Sansa in any meaningful way? His plot which so far has been half dedicated to explaining his vulnerability to the manipulations of beautiful young women who can play to his yearning for love? Could it possibly intertwine with our young, beautiful developing manipulator? I dunno, maybe if the author had cooked up some crazy method of tying them together it would be clearer. I mean it's not those two whole cordial lines of thought Sansa spares Jon or the nothing about Stannis throughout the series, but there might be something there.

Now regarding Bran, is Sansa going on an expedition on the other side of the wall, or is she going to send an invitation for this Winterfell Stark family reunion party to the cave and Bran will walk to her?

If Tyrion stops being obsessed with Tysha, if he stops blaming Sansa for framing him, and if he allows any woman to get close to him again after the trauma and betrayal he has gone through perhaps Tyrion/Sansa can be a thing. As it stands, ADWD!Tyrion would not so easily be manipulated by Sansa.

As for Bran we have to see where his story takes him, but he is the heir to Winterfell so I didn't just discount him in case he returns from beyond the Wall (as he does in the Outline). However, that is why I included her three remaining brothers not just Bran. Davos is off to find Rickon and make him LP of Winterfell/the North. Plus Jon, may be AAR, and have the most game changing story in the books. All the action is going North. The war against the Others is starting, and it was always the most important conflict of the story. In the original trilogy plan, Dany conquered Westeros in book two and then had to unite her kingdom against the Others in books three, because what happens in the North is what is most important to the endgame of the story.

[Wouter]

Sandor is not dead and never was, and yes his relationship with Sansa is infinitely more interesting, intricate and developed than anything relating to the Jon and Sansa non event. And it's not concluded. Sansa isn't going South to hide. Objectification, makes sense, obviously Jaime and Brienne are no longer relevant to Sansa's arc, or her to them, because objectification. The man armoured like the sun and the man with the face of the Hound are going to have to let this one pass, because objectification.

Now that you remind us of Bran's dream from AGOT, besides the man armoured like the sun and the one with the face of the Hound, the Mountain was also mentioned (with nothing but thick, black blood behind his visor). I would guess Cersei is going to send UnGregor against Sansa at some point, and Sandor and/or Jaime may play a part in stopping it. Curious that there is no hint of Brienne in the dream.

Speculation that the character with the most chapters and highest word count, the author's favourite who he has said is set to come home and who we are blatantly told will cast a large shadow in the middle of dragons, yes I speculate he's going to be going to South Westeros. Wild speculation. Will his plot will include Sansa in any meaningful way? His plot which so far has been half dedicated to explaining his vulnerability to the manipulations of beautiful young women who can play to his yearning for love? Could it possibly intertwine with our young, beautiful developing manipulator?

Interesting thought, I hadn't yet thought of Tyrion in that way. I have long considered the possibility that the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa will actually go forward in the end (and tie Sansa to the south, in the end, quite possibly as queen of the seven kingdom's), but I always saw this as something that would be more or less forced on Sansa for political reasons. I had not considered that Sansa could use her ties to Tyrion willingly, to manipulate him, and by extension the restored Targaryen regime.

As for south or north, I don't see Sansa getting involved with Aegon as I mentioned, but the south is larger than Aegon. Surely, Sansa has to find out what LF did against her family at some point, and given Bran's dream I would also expect Jaime (likely with Brienne) and Sandor to become relevant in her storyline along with the Mountain. And since Tyrion isn't going to die anytime soon and since he will more than likely return to Westeros as part of Dany's forces, the marriage and their relationship (even if it is just Tyrion being angry with her because of the purple wedding and her supposed part in it) will have to be addressed one way or another. Other elements that could play a role are the Vale Lords (obviously), the Riverlands with Freys and the Brotherhood and even the Tyrells.

Now, in the show she has gone north, but the situation appears to be very different compared to the books: the show has broken the power of Stannis' in the north (which may not be the case in the books), Brienne has gone north (not the case in the books) and in the show the Vale forces are noted for their capability to make war in the snows, while in the books the snows in the passes block their movements.

All in all, I think the show has now dropped most of the Vale storyline and moved the whole thing to the north for a Vale/Bolton showdown instead of having a Bolton/Stannis conflict and separate Vale intrigues.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Wouter

[Wouter]

I disagree, I think as the books have progressed KL has (and will continue to) become more and more irrelevant. As LC Mormont told Jon in the first book, "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

In case of a full fledged invasion by the Others, the north would be a place for seasoned battle commanders such as Jon Snow, Stannis, Mance etc. If the Wall falls, the onslaught of the Others is likely to decimate the north. Which could be a reason for GRRM to keep Sansa out of that particular harm's way, even if he finds other ways to endanger her in the south.

On the other hand, a Sansa at Dany's court could play a role in convincing Tyrion and Dany herself that there is a little problem up north that needs urgent attention, of the Royal Army and of the Royal Dragons.

It also is unclear when the invasion proper will start. In Martin's original schedule, the Dance of the Dragons came before the invasion of the Others. While Martin may have decided by now to let them occur more or less around the same time (or allow some chronological overlap at least), I think there will still be wars and politics in the south for a good while before the penny drops.

I'm one of those who very much doubts Martin can end in only two more books, exactly because I think he will need to reserve space and time for the Dance of the Dragons before the attention can go fully to the main issue of the series.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Wouter

[AllOfTheHours]

It also is unclear when the invasion proper will start. In Martin's original schedule, the Dance of the Dragons came before the invasion of the Others. While Martin may have decided by now to let them occur more or less around the same time (or allow some chronological overlap at least), I think there will still be wars and politics in the south for a good while before the penny drops.

I'm one of those who very much doubts Martin can end in only two more books, exactly because I think he will need to reserve space and time for the Dance of the Dragons before the attention can go fully to the main issue of the series.

Whether or not GRRM finishes the series in two more books or five, he has paced himself to conclude the story in two. Which means IMO he has planned to condense the space between Dany's arrival and her fight with the Others. Winter is no longer coming, per the white raven in the last chapter of ADWD, it has arrived. Dany will be landing in a kingdom in Winter with the Others at the Wall or breaking it down.

I don't see Dany establishing a Court in KL before she fights the Others. I think Dany and her army are going North, and soon. Her dragons will help defeat the Others. Even if they land in the South, they will have to go North. As Stannis recognizes, the true war for the Seven Kingdoms isn't in KL but at the Wall, "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

On the other hand, a Sansa at Dany's court could play a role in convincing Tyrion and Dany herself that there is a little problem up north that needs urgent attention, of the Royal Army and of the Royal Dragons.

Why would she be welcomed in Dany's court (if and when it is established)? She is the daughter of one of the Usurper's Dogs and the niece to Lyanna Stark. Plus, in her own right, she was engaged to the Usurper's "son" and could have been his Queen. She is not only the daughter of enemies but possibly a rival.

And I don't see how she would be convincing Tyrion of anything. The few times he thinks of her since his imprisonment and trial it was always with bitterness and anger. Not only does he call her personally "false" he also says things like "All the girls cry when I kiss them" and "Most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can." And Sansa has made is clear that she doesn't want him, it would take a lot of manipulating to make him forget all of her previous reactions towards him. Also, since their marriage, he killed Shae who he said he loved, murdered his father, and raped a slave. He's not going to forgive Sansa and allow her to twist his arm with a kiss and a smile.

I could however see Tyrion wanting to maintain the marriage for political purposes - Sansa is the key to Winterfell and therefore a valuable asset. He's also attracted to her and he has lost his previous abhorrence of forcing unwilling girls to have sex with him. With time he could soften to her again, but I don't think we have that kind of time between Dany arriving in Westeros and going North to fight the Others.

Edited June 27, 2015 by AllOfTheHours

[Wouter]

Whether or not GRRM finishes the series in two more books or five, he has paced himself to conclude the story in two. Which means IMO he has planned to condense the space between Dany's arrival and her fight with the Others. Winter is no longer coming, per the white raven in the last chapter of ADWD, it has arrived. Dany will be landing in a kingdom in Winter with the Others at the Wall or breaking it down.

At the Wall sure, but breaking it down (at that time) remains to be seen. I have a different opinion on Martin's pacing; the books have gotten ever slower since AGOT (not that I dislike that). Finishing in two books would mean suddenly going in overdrive again. Especially given the leisurely pacing of the sample chapters of TWOW, which still aren't close to resolving the twin couple of battles that were used as cliffhangers in ADWD.

I don't see Dany establishing a Court in KL before she fights the Others. I think Dany and her army are going North, and soon.

I think Dany will land in the south and, as per the vision of the Undying, deal with Aegonfirst. She may not establish a court in the formal sense, but she will have the usual following of close advisors, bodyguards and ladies waiting on her (like Missandei and some of her Meerenese hostages do now).

Why would she be welcomed in Dany's court (if and when it is established)? She is the daughter of one of the Usurper's Dogs and the niece to Lyanna Stark.

Sansa is Tyrion's wife. She would be a valuable hostage and a potential pawn for marriage to control. Since everybody in Westeros will be a rebel from Dany's POV (either from Robert's rebellion or from the Tyrell/Lannister alliance or following Aegon), Sansa would hardly be unique in that aspect and her advisors would probably point out that she has to show mercy and even be generous when former rebels kneel to her. Having Sansa in her court would strengthen her legitimacy in Westeros, something that would help considering she is likely to arrive with a host of outsiders.

And I don't see how she would be convincing Tyrion of anything. The few times he thinks of her since his imprisonment and trial it was always with bitterness and anger. Not only does he call her personally "false" he also says things like "All the girls cry when I kiss them" and "Most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can."

Yes, I agree those passages refer to Sansa. But while they show Tyrion is bitter, they also show that he ultimately still wants her and is bitter because he lost her. There is this ambigious passage in his last chapter of ADWD:

"What do you miss, Halfman?"

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew. "Wine, whores, and wealth," he answered.

Allthough Tyrion sort of hates Jaime and Shae, he misses them anyway. And since Tysha has already been named as part of the line-up, it seems that the reference to his wife is talking about his present wife (he hardly knew either of them so that doesn't help as qualifier). if he misses Shae, sure he could be missing Sansa as well. He liked the idea of the marriage well enough.

And Sansa has made is clear that she doesn't want him, it would take a lot of manipulating to make him forget all of her previous reactions towards him. Also, since their marriage, he killed Shae who he said he loved, murdered his father, and raped a slave. He's not going to forgive Sansa and allow her to twist his arm with a kiss and a smile.

Tyrion is also aware that Sansa was forced into the marriage, and at the end of ADWD there were indications he's starting to soften again. As his star rises again in the world, his bitterness may drop.

I could however see Tyrion wanting to maintain the marriage for political purposes - Sansa is the key to Winterfell and therefore a valuable asset. He's also attracted to her and he has lost his previous abhorrence of forcing unwilling girls to have sex with him. With time he could soften to her again, but I don't think we have the type of time for them to reconcile in between Dany arriving in Westeros and attacking the Others.

A fair POV. I don't think Tyrion will care about Winterfell anymore though, with the resources he will likely have at his disposal he will go for Casterly Rock. Winterfell was but a consolation prize. Still, if he wants heirs he needs a wife, and his existing one would probably be considered even if he has no reason to think Sansa would agree. However, Dany would also have a say in that. Edited June 27, 2015 by Wouter

[AllOfTheHours]

I think Dany will land in the south and, as per the vision of the Undying, deal with Aegonfirst. She may not establish a court in the formal sense, but she will have the usual following of close advisors, bodyguards and ladies waiting on her (like Missandei and some of her Meerenese hostages do now).

Sansa is Tyrion's wife. She would be a valuable hostage and a potential pawn for marriage to control. Since everybody in Westeros will be a rebel from Dany's POV (either from Robert's rebellion or from the Tyrell/Lannister alliance or following Aegon), Sansa would hardly be unique in that aspect and her advisors would probably point out that she has to show mercy and even be generous when former rebels kneel to her. Having Sansa in her court would strengthen her legitimacy in Westeros, something that would help considering she is likely to arrive with a host of outsiders.

So she would provide legitimacy to a court that isn't really a court? Sansa doesn't have that kind of influence. And even if she did, she's wanted for killing a king herself. I don't see any opportunities in KL for Sansa until after the war with the Others is finished. There is too much chaos and too many forces pushing her North, from her own will to LF trying to get her to claim WF (with HtH and an army of the Vale).

Yes, I agree those passages refer to Sansa. But while they show Tyrion is bitter, they also show that he ultimately still wants her and is bitter because he lost her. There is this ambigious passage in his last chapter of ADWD:

Allthough Tyrion sort of hates Jaime and Shae, he misses them anyway. And since Tysha has already been named as part of the line-up, it seems that the reference to his wife is talking about his present wife (he hardly knew either of them so that doesn't help as qualifier). if he misses Shae, sure he could be missing Sansa as well. He liked the idea of the marriage well enough.

I have discussed this quote a lot over the past year, it's one of my favorites in ADWD. And I actually want it to be about Sansa, otherwise he thinks about Shae 50 times for every time he thinks of Sansa, which just felt strange to me unless he literally didn't care about her at all (which I don't think is true). However, as you say, the key word is ambiguous. We don't know yet.

Tyrion is also aware that Sansa was forced into the marriage, and at the end of ADWD there were indications he's starting to soften again. As his star rises again in the world, his bitterness may drop.

A fair POV. I don't think Tyrion will care about Winterfell anymore though, with the resources he will likely have at his disposal he will go for Casterly Rock. Winterfell was but a consolation prize. Still, if he wants heirs he needs a wife, and his existing one would probably be considered even if he has no reason to think Sansa would agree. However, Dany would also have a say in that.

It may drop. But based on the text we have so far, he's still bitter and not above rape. I don't want him anywhere near Sansa. It would take a lot of whitewashing to make him a decent husband to anyone.

And the wife he wants is Tysha. Unless we get confirmation that she is dead, in which case he might take Sansa as a consolation prize, he won't give up on her. It's why his catch praise in ADWD was "Where do whores go?" and not "Where did Sansa go?"