Jump to content

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3


Recommended Posts

Well you could just run with the straight forward foreshadowing and take on her character arc. You've got the Sharra, Ronnel and Visenya story to run parallel with Sansa, Robert and Tyrion and so we have how she winds things up in the Vale. From there you have her rise to queen, keeping with her pawn to player arc, the younger queen casting down Cersei and her parallels of Anne Neville and Alysanne. On the way to throwing down Cersei there's the much foreshadowed Cleganebowl as a well foreshadowed trial of seven. And then you have her ditching the throne and doing a runner as per Jaime's advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Sansa so much and I really enjoyed reading Alayne 1. Though, as discussed before, I think something horrible is about to happen. I mean Sansa is way too happy. And she still needs to become a much darker character (all her siblings have become or are becoming).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Sansa so much and I really enjoyed reading Alayne 1. Though, as discussed before, I think something horrible is about to happen. I mean Sansa is way too happy. And she still needs to become a much darker character (all her siblings have become or are becoming).

 

Yes, she needs to be able to be called a bastard without flinching like she did when Harry first arrived if she really wants to play the game, or the flinch has to be deliberate on her part, much like Arya has learned with the FM.

 

I didn't enjoy reading Sansa's chapters prior to her escaping KL, sometimes because she was being an idiot (like with Lady and running to Cersei), and others because Joffrey was in them, or others because she was sad, for good reason (married to Tyrion, etc...), I did like her chapter around the riot, but only because Sandor was awesome there.

 

I really enjoyed this chapter and she's one of the characters I am most looking forward to now. So, that just shows you shouldn't get stuck in one opinion.

Edited by Whitering
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What an interesting thread.

Let me offer my own observations. These are purely my own and i may be completely wrong but it is fun to predict. These are based on the book till TWOW as well as the show - Season 5 and the interviews the actors & creators who know the ending have given..

Book Sansa was raped the night of the Blackwater. She is an unreliable narrator so she blocks it out from her memory.

The Blackwater ep was written by GRRM himself. But This cannot be shown in GoT S2 since the actress is underage,

so it was postponed to Season 5 when she is 18 and combined with Jeynes story.

That is why GRRM defended the change and the showrunners kept quiet since it spoils the books.

I read the chapter around season 4. My first impression of it was that a rape had indeed occurred. S5 confirmed it for me.

 

Sansa was raped in Season 5 because she was parachuted into Book Jeyne's plot and Book Jeyne was raped.

 

When the Hound is wailing about all his sins to Arya, he says that he meant to rape Sansa and that he should have raped her, which seems to be pretty clear confirmation that he didn't:

 

"I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

 

Sansa might have a hazy memory of what happened, but the Hound seems pretty clear on not raping her. And if he had raped her, surely he would have mentioned it, since he was trying to goad Arya into killing him at the time.

 

GRRM's an old hand at TV, and he did write the Blackwater episode. If he'd wanted to imply that Sansa had been raped during the Hound and Sansa's confrontation in Blackwater, he would have done so using the typical TV tricks for implying sexual abuse of minors without depicting the actual abuse (cutaways, that sort of thing).

 

Also, the show had similar lines when the Hound is trying to get Arya to kill him--"I should have fucked her bloody. At least I'd have one happy memory"--so both the show and the books are consistent on this point.

Edited by Newstar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

the hound wasnt the one who raped her... he was the one who left the door open.

Anyway we have different opinions on this so let us set it aside.

Joffrey was recalled to the Red Keep was he not? Do you think Joffrey did or we will not know until Sansa is wed again in the books and it comes back to her at that moment when her groom discovers her not to be a maid?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She dreamt of footsteps on the tower stair, an ominous scraping of leather on stone as a man
climbed slowly toward her bedchamber, step by step. All she could do was huddle behind her door and
listen, trembling, as he came closer and closer. It was Ser Ilyn Payne, she knew, coming for her with Ice
in his hand, coming to take her head. There was no place to run, no place to hide, no way to bar the door.
Finally the footsteps stopped and she knew he was just outside, standing there silent with his dead eyes
and his long pocked face. That was when she realized she was naked. She crouched down, trying to
cover herself with her hands, as her door began to swing open, creaking, the point of the greatsword
poking through . . .

She woke murmuring, “Please, please, I’ll be good, I’ll be good, please don’t,” but there was no
one to hear.
When they finally came for her in truth, Sansa never heard their footsteps. It was Joffrey who
opened her door, not Ser Ilyn but the boy who had been her prince. She was in bed,
curled up tight, her
curtains drawn, and she could not have said if it was noon or midnight. The first thing she heard was the
slam of the door. Then her bed hangings were yanked back, and she threw up a hand against the sudden
light and saw them standing over her.

 

 

 

======

 

 

 Then he rose from the bed.
Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.
When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She
found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky
outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind
was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it
on the floor, shivering.
How long she stayed there she could not have said,
but after a time she heard a bell ringing,

 

It was Ser Dontos who brought her the word. He staggered through her open door.......

 

=====================

 

George R.R Martin: The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

 

=================================

 

This is just my own theory of course.

I may be completely wrong. Anyway we shall see.

After reading this, I think this is very very possible and since she has not been bedded officialy, it is potentially setting the stage for a shocking twist in her story. Say, if she is inspected by Septas in order to have her suposed "non consummated" marriage to Tyrion annulled, they discover that her maiden head is not there and thereby her marriage to Tyrion will be held as valid as she cannot prove otherwise. That I think is a strong possibility if your theory proves to be true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She dreamt of footsteps on the tower stair, an ominous scraping of leather on stone as a man
climbed slowly toward her bedchamber, step by step. All she could do was huddle behind her door and
listen, trembling, as he came closer and closer. It was Ser Ilyn Payne, she knew, coming for her with Ice
in his hand, coming to take her head. There was no place to run, no place to hide, no way to bar the door.
Finally the footsteps stopped and she knew he was just outside, standing there silent with his dead eyes
and his long pocked face. That was when she realized she was naked. She crouched down, trying to
cover herself with her hands, as her door began to swing open, creaking, the point of the greatsword
poking through . . .

She woke murmuring, “Please, please, I’ll be good, I’ll be good, please don’t,” but there was no
one to hear.
When they finally came for her in truth, Sansa never heard their footsteps. It was Joffrey who
opened her door, not Ser Ilyn but the boy who had been her prince. She was in bed,
curled up tight, her
curtains drawn, and she could not have said if it was noon or midnight. The first thing she heard was the
slam of the door. Then her bed hangings were yanked back, and she threw up a hand against the sudden
light and saw them standing over her.

 

 

 

======

 

 

 Then he rose from the bed.
Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.
When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She
found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky
outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind
was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it
on the floor, shivering.
How long she stayed there she could not have said,
but after a time she heard a bell ringing,

 

It was Ser Dontos who brought her the word. He staggered through her open door.......

 

=====================

 

George R.R Martin: The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

 

=================================

 

This is just my own theory of course.

I may be completely wrong. Anyway we shall see.

You're quoting passages from two separate books.  The first passage has nothing to do with the second.

 

The "cloth ripping" is the Hound removing his white cloak, which is what she curls up in on the floor.  There is literally nothing suggesting she was raped -- among other things, that would cause physical pain.  Moreover, you're confusing Sansa misremembering past events with Sansa actively hallucinating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Whoa! That's a wild theory.

Sansa is misremembering a kiss. The SSM that was quoted spells that out. GRRM says that it will lead to a "more important lapse in memory". And that this misremembered kiss "will eventually mean something." It seems ingrained in her memory. What will it lead to, the more important lapse in memory? Meaning, to me, what else will she treat in the same fashion and will it be connected to the 'kiss' or not?

There's not a fantastical thing that happened with an 'open door' that's going to pop up later on to mean something. It's just a way to convey that Sansa attached meaning to this kiss that didn't happen and hung onto that memory. So she does this and we are told she'll do it again. The question is will it be related to this or something separate? Or to put it differently, does the "it" he references in the SSM mean the kiss or her mind's facility? Of course it could be both!

Since it is specifically this 'kiss' that is the method the author uses to highlight Sansa's 'misremembering', I'd say that the kiss will be part of the more important mismemory to come.

I refuse to honor the idea of a rape of Sansa in AGoT or attaching book meaning to something that happened in the show. Edited by Karmarni
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moving back towards Alayne, the ball/feast and her dancing with Harry the heir. SweetRobin is staring at them and Littlefinger is secretly wooing Sansa all the while plucking diplomatic strings with various Vale lords. Royce is the recipient of those expensive masculine/hunting tapestries as a gift from Littlefinger as he is the most major threat to his continuation as ruler in the Vale. We are also expecting SweetRobin to die due to the doses of sweetsleep he recieves for his seizure fits. I wonder if someone is going to die after all. It may come that Bronze Yonce may die. Natural causes or maybe not. Royce is an obstacle that he admits to Sansa / Alayne will oppose him forever. I think Royce gets offed. the problem is, what will his daughter and Harry Hardying's biggest fan do if her father is all of the sudden gone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whoa! That's a wild theory.

Sansa is misremembering a kiss. The SSM that was quoted spells that out. GRRM says that it will lead to a "more important lapse in memory". And that this misremembered kiss "will eventually mean something." It seems ingrained in her memory. What will it lead to, the more important lapse in memory? Meaning, to me, what else will she treat in the same fashion and will it be connected to the 'kiss' or not?

There's not a fantastical thing that happened with an 'open door' that's going to pop up later on to mean something. It's just a way to convey that Sansa attached meaning to this kiss that didn't happen and hung onto that memory. So she does this and we are told she'll do it again. The question is will it be related to this or something separate? Or to put it differently, does the "it" he references in the SSM mean the kiss or her mind's facility? Of course it could be both!

Since it is specifically this 'kiss' that is the method the author uses to highlight Sansa's 'misremembering', I'd say that the kiss will be part of the more important mismemory to come.

I refuse to honor the idea of a rape of Sansa in AGoT or attaching book meaning to something that happened in the show.

 

What if the part in the Alayne chapter about her telling the story of Marillion pushing Lysa out the Moon door so often she comes to believe it is the "more important mis-memory?"

 

I hope not, but....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What if the part in the Alayne chapter about her telling the story of Marillion pushing Lysa out the Moon door so often she comes to believe it is the "more important mis-memory?"

 

I hope not, but....

No, me hope not either but what if she has a traumatic experience and she deels with it by blocking it out and it comes back to haunt her at a most  un - opportune time. Like a wedding bedding with someone she is happy to be with?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not know if you do or not but just throwing it out there.

Well, I watch Elio and Linda's recaps of the show, but I don't watch the show. This is mostly because they talk about the books on the recaps and for some reason, seeing Linda get mad is really entertaining for me.

 

I just don't think because they decided to edit out the Vale story and catapult Sansa into Jeyne's place that that necessarily means that Sansa will lose her virginity in the books. They have changed so much I don't think other than the ultimate ending that the story will be much the same for these last two books.

 

See, George based a lot of the background for these books on the War of the Roses, which although much of the fighting ended before she ascended the throne, the instability didn't go away until Elizabeth was Queen. Her sister Mary might have been the figure that ended all the mistrust and vitriol except she went crazy on the Anglicans and threatened to set off a whole new civil war. Maybe Myrcella will go crazy after they kill her Mommy and with no real support other than from Dorne she goes on a witchhunt against the Faith. Then Alayne, pro Westerlands (Tyrion), pro Vale, pro Riverlands, pro North, pro Dorne (female inheritance) will ascend the throne and heal the realm.

 

I should note, I am not a Sansa fan, when I reread I don't read most of her chapters, but I am an Elizabeth I fan, mostly because I am reading history books instead of living under her rule, and she's well regarded by English historians.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GRRM's comment about Sansa being an 'unreliable narrator' referrers to the memory of the un-kiss.  Be that as it may, it's a phrase that has launched a thousand cracked pots.  Sansa wasn't raped at the BotB, if she had been, I feel that GRRM would have spelled that out.  He didn't because it didn't happen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I watch Elio and Linda's recaps of the show, but I don't watch the show. This is mostly because they talk about the books on the recaps and for some reason, seeing Linda get mad is really entertaining for me.

 

I just don't think because they decided to edit out the Vale story and catapult Sansa into Jeyne's place that that necessarily means that Sansa will lose her virginity in the books. They have changed so much I don't think other than the ultimate ending that the story will be much the same for these last two books.

 

See, George based a lot of the background for these books on the War of the Roses, which although much of the fighting ended before she ascended the throne, the instability didn't go away until Elizabeth was Queen. Her sister Mary might have been the figure that ended all the mistrust and vitriol except she went crazy on the Anglicans and threatened to set off a whole new civil war. Maybe Myrcella will go crazy after they kill her Mommy and with no real support other than from Dorne she goes on a witchhunt against the Faith. Then Alayne, pro Westerlands (Tyrion), pro Vale, pro Riverlands, pro North, pro Dorne (female inheritance) will ascend the throne and heal the realm.

 

I should note, I am not a Sansa fan, when I reread I don't read most of her chapters, but I am an Elizabeth I fan, mostly because I am reading history books instead of living under her rule, and she's well regarded by English historians.

She has a temper, that is for sure.

 

I hope not unless it is a situation where she is happy and excepting of the situation. She has had a lot of close calls in the books but she is still atleast though to be a virgin, I think for a good reason. The Blackwater is kind of a scary thought for her character. There are lots of places Sansa could end up but I think most likely she will end up with a character that is in the books but not the show, that is why, they are sending her in a different place on the show so freely.

 

I understand that ASOIAF is inspired by the War of the Roses etc however I think it only goes so far.

 

I as I am sure you are, looking forward to TWOW and hopefully it will be out in the next 6 months or so. So much has built up in ADWD that the 4 1/2 year wait has seemed like 10 years. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...