[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Le Cygne]

Agreed. If the author wanted to present a scheme that was going as planned, this wasn't the way to do it.

[Colonel Green]

Seriously, has there been a time in this series where a character says, "X and Y will happen and this will result in Z." ?

Not when they're the heroes.  The villains have much better luck on that score, at least as long as GRRM wants them to rise.

 

I have no idea how far along this plot is going to go, mind you.

[Grail King]

 
I think the kiss is the important mismemory. They first mismemory is the sword, the important mismemory is the kiss.

The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it --> the sword mismemory
 
was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. --> the unkiss mismemory
 
You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

 

I think she wants to kiss him! :lol:

Except this mis-memory is the authors :blushing: , it was Arya who named the sword wrong in SOS during the Hound fighting Dondareion.

[Le Cygne]

I know. One person brings that up, he knows he had one of the sisters remember it wrong, he's saying he mixes things up to show that characters misremember things. But he's saying the unkiss is important, and to underscore that point, he's saying it will come up again and again.

[Grail King]

I know. One person brings that up, he knows he had one of the sisters remember it wrong, he's saying he mixes things up to show that characters misremember things. But he's saying the unkiss is important, and to underscore that point, he's saying it will come up again and again.

oh, I know the unkiss is important ( I still think she got into his head).

[Lady Winter Rose]

In this chapter, Sansa rose up from the table to accuse Marillion for murder of Lysa. I thought she actually belied what she said, out of fear.

 

“The little lord cannot abide them,” Ser Lymond Lynderly replied.  “Not since Marillion.”

     “Ah… that was the man who murdered Lady Lysa, yes?"

 

Alayne spoke up. “His singing pleased her greatly, and she showed him too much favor, perhaps.  When she wed my father he went mad and pushed her out the Moon Door.  Lord Robert has hated singing ever since.  He is still fond of music, though.”

 

Edited September 15, 2015 by Lady Winter Rose

[honeyed chicken]

What I got out of it.

 

 

 

[1] Setup Setup Setup. Nothing really happens in this chapter. It's all setup for whatever is going to happen next, presumably with the coming tournament to serve as the setting. No wonder GRRM and his editor decided to bump it.

 

 

 

[2] "Lemon-gate" continues: We now learn that those lemons do not grow in the Vale. When they run out, they have to be imported .... all the way from Dorne. Not even from somewhere closer like Pentos, or the Stormlands. Note that the Vale is about 200 miles SOUTH of Braavos.

 

 

 

[3] Stark Girls Love Lemon Cakes. Arya & Sansa's love for lemon cakes keeps getting mentioned. Even Sweetrobin's love of lemoncakes is secondary to Sansa's. Is this symbolic in some way?

 

 

 

[4] Tournament: the Jousting is "invitation only" but not the melee. This is an opportunity for some unexpected character to appear. But who? Note that three of the best tournament warriors in Westeros are currently missing in action: Brienne, Sandor and Jaime.

 

 

 

[5] Sweetrobin's Burning Ears: How does he know what Harry is saying behind his back? Did a little bird tell him? Is Robin a bird-warg? Does this explain the flapping he does when he goes in his fits?

You say, "setup" like that's a bad thing. All of the leaked chapters so far have been setup.

I think setting up is the perfect thing for leaked chapters intended to whet our appetites for the real thing.

[ChillyPolly]

You say, "setup" like that's a bad thing. All of the leaked chapters so far have been setup.

I think setting up is the perfect thing for leaked chapters intended to whet our appetites for the real thing.

Actually, I just said "setup".  You seem to agree with me.  

[honeyed chicken]

Actually, I just said "setup".  You seem to agree with me.  

I don't agree. I like the these setup chapters a lot. I think in this case setup is perfect  - it's a teaser. It's what Martin does, and does very well - because here we are!

 

[ChillyPolly]

I don't agree. I like the these setup chapters a lot.

So you agree with me that they are setup chapters.

I never said it was a "bad thing".  That was entirely your invention.  You are in full agreement with what I actually said.

Yes?

[Good Guy Garlan]

So, apologies if someone said something like this already but I'm not reading 23 pages:

I think it's very likely that LF wants Harry to win a spot on the Winged Knights, and even if Harry's a super talented jouster, LF is not a man to risk it. He probably ordered Brune and Corbray to get rid of all the gnats, as Sandor would say, and to do everything in their power to make sure Harry and other guys from other important Vale houses end up winning, including throwing a duel.

Hell, LF probably arranged the order of the lists himself so that the final round ends up being Harry vs Brune. Brune loses on purpose, Harry wins, the Vale nibility cheers and loves him, he crowns Sansa Queen of Love and Beauty and everything's perfect. 

Except that I think Brune is going to do the unthinkable by going against LF's orders, beating Harry into the dirt and declaring Mya Stone QoLaB. And that will be the first nail in LF's coffin, as he loses one of his two most trusted pillars, the other being Kettleblack Senior who's probably salty about all three of his sons ending up in the Black Cells while being LF's double agents. Other than them, in terms of personal security, LF's got...who? The Mad Mouse has obviously his own agenda, Ser Byron looks like a random fool who could be seduced by Alayne in under five minutes. So that leaves that other knight, whatshisface. That's it. 

Which means LF would be vulnerable to, say, a Royce coup, engineered by Myranda, for example. She'd totally throw LF and Alayne under the bus if it meant "getting rid of the enemies of the Vale" and having a shot at Harry. Then LF would get fucked, but Alayne maybe escapes/gets kidnapped by Shadrich and taken to his real prince: Aegon.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

So, apologies if someone said something like this already but I'm not reading 23 pages:

I think it's very likely that LF wants Harry to win a spot on the Winged Knights, and even if Harry's a super talented jouster, LF is not a man to risk it. He probably ordered Brune and Corbray to get rid of all the gnats, as Sandor would say, and to do everything in their power to make sure Harry and other guys from other important Vale houses end up winning, including throwing a duel.

Hell, LF probably arranged the order of the lists himself so that the final round ends up being Harry vs Brune. Brune loses on purpose, Harry wins, the Vale nibility cheers and loves him, he crowns Sansa Queen of Love and Beauty and everything's perfect. 

Except that I think Brune is going to do the unthinkable by going against LF's orders, beating Harry into the dirt and declaring Mya Stone QoLaB. And that will be the first nail in LF's coffin, as he loses one of his two most trusted pillars, the other being Kettleblack Senior who's probably salty about all three of his sons ending up in the Black Cells while being LF's double agents. Other than them, in terms of personal security, LF's got...who? The Mad Mouse has obviously his own agenda, Ser Byron looks like a random fool who could be seduced by Alayne in under five minutes. So that leaves that other knight, whatshisface. That's it. 

Which means LF would be vulnerable to, say, a Royce coup, engineered by Myranda, for example. She'd totally throw LF and Alayne under the bus if it meant "getting rid of the enemies of the Vale" and having a shot at Harry. Then LF would get fucked, but Alayne maybe escapes/gets kidnapped by Shadrich and taken to his real prince: Aegon.

 

I proposed something slightly different.  I think Sansa has all the pieces, she knows how Brune feels about Mya, and how mad Mya is at Redfort.  If Sansa convinced Mya to give Brune her favor as an attempt to make Redfort jealous, that would provide the motivation for Brune to go against LF.  That being said Myranda has all the pieces as well.

[Whitering]

Alayne's champion will kill or cripple Harry, breaking alliances LF has carefully cultivated in the Vale. He put something in her control, or rather its something he didn't think to control himself, and it will bite him hard in the ass, leading to split between him and Sansa.

[Ice Turtle]

I am starting to think that Sweetrobin might prove to be Littlefinger's son in a symbolic sense, even if his parentage is never confirmed.

Littlefiger was younger and physically much weaker than Brandon when they both courted Cat and I am a fan of the theory that he was the author of misinformation which sent Brandon to King's Landing, so in the end he got Brandon killed. And even if not he certainly did for Ned. Sweetrobin is in a similar position, not to mention we as readers underestimate him. He hates Harry already, he will hate him even more for Sansa, he seems absolutely helpless but I am 99% sure he is up to something, and GRRM will shock most of us when he at least partially succeeds. He might find a way to get Harry killed or hurt.

It seems to me that despite their less than warm first meeting Sansa is starting to be fond of Harry, it could be that she will start to care for him and that Sweetrobin hurts him. If she learned about it, she might be more willing to become an accomplice in Sweetrobin's demise. It would tie nicely back to the original outline, where she choose her husband over her family.

[Karmarni]

Littlefinger IS symbolically Sweetrobin and Sansa’s ‘father.’ And he’s the Lord Protector. Protector. But he’s not Protecting Sweetrobin by giving him sweetsleep and milk of the poppy. And he’s not Protecting Sansa by taking advantage of her blindness to his own advances on her and for pimping her out to Harry. Littlefinger never “courted” Cat. He was raised alongside her and Lysa.

Here’s Catelyn:

Catelyn was past delicacy. “He was my father’s ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were... more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand.

I don’t think it seems like Sansa is “starting to be fond of Harry.” I think it sounds like she’s following the cue cards that Littlefinger gave her. She even repeats Littlefinger’s instructions to herself, “Charm him.  Entrance him.  Bewitch him.” She also is developing a snarky sense of humor - more than she had and shows signs of enjoying wordplay.

Also, Sansa already chose the enemy (Joffrey) over her family. Since then, she has not done much in the way of choosing for herself. She chose not to kneel when she was wed to the monster (Tyrion). She met with and ultimately escaped King’s Landing with the fool (Dontos), but unbeknownst to her, she landed right in the clutches of the ultimate enemy/monster and, perhaps, in the end, the fool (for her). 

But that’s much later . . . she’s not going to get out of this story without a few more scrapes and bruises. I can say that with complete faith because she does not seem to fully recognize her peril (Littlefinger wants to play come into her castle) yet, so there’s more ‘growth’ experiences yet to come.

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Karmarni

[aryagonnakill#2]

I am starting to think that Sweetrobin might prove to be Littlefinger's son in a symbolic sense, even if his parentage is never confirmed.

Littlefiger was younger and physically much weaker than Brandon when they both courted Cat and I am a fan of the theory that he was the author of misinformation which sent Brandon to King's Landing, so in the end he got Brandon killed. And even if not he certainly did for Ned. Sweetrobin is in a similar position, not to mention we as readers underestimate him. He hates Harry already, he will hate him even more for Sansa, he seems absolutely helpless but I am 99% sure he is up to something, and GRRM will shock most of us when he at least partially succeeds. He might find a way to get Harry killed or hurt.

It seems to me that despite their less than warm first meeting Sansa is starting to be fond of Harry, it could be that she will start to care for him and that Sweetrobin hurts him. If she learned about it, she might be more willing to become an accomplice in Sweetrobin's demise. It would tie nicely back to the original outline, where she choose her husband over her family.

I have heard that theory before, and cannot understand where it comes from.  LF was off at the fingers, Brandon was at Riverrun, Lyanna was "taken" near Harrenhall.  How could LF have possibly heard before Brandon, and why on earth would Brandon listen to anything LF said even if somehow that did happen?  Why would Lyannas guards/handmaids not have been the ones to report the incident?  Why would they not have immediately rode to Harrenhall and sent out a raven?  It makes no sense to me.

[Old Ida]

I have one question about the Vale and the turney.  IF  Jamie shoes up is he not Warden of the West and is his power then stronger than the Protector ?  and he tell LF to go to Riverlands and do something there.  I am sorry this is short and not a theory but I have a broken arm now so hard to write,    someone has thougt about this and is ready to write smothing about it.

[Ice Turtle]

I have heard that theory before, and cannot understand where it comes from.  LF was off at the fingers, Brandon was at Riverrun, Lyanna was "taken" near Harrenhall.  How could LF have possibly heard before Brandon, and why on earth would Brandon listen to anything LF said even if somehow that did happen?  Why would Lyannas guards/handmaids not have been the ones to report the incident?  Why would they not have immediately rode to Harrenhall and sent out a raven?  It makes no sense to me.

LF was likely on his way to Fingers at the time Lyanna travelled to Riverrun,  he could have come upon Lyanna and Rhaegar by a chance or upon their messenger, or there was no messenger at all and he simply sent a false info to Brandon, claiming it was from Lyanna's guard or someone like that. Anyway if she was outside of castle, I doubt Lyanna would take handmaidens with her and it is very possible that she was separated even from her guards at the moment.

[Hippocras]

I have heard that theory before, and cannot understand where it comes from.  LF was off at the fingers, Brandon was at Riverrun, Lyanna was "taken" near Harrenhall.  How could LF have possibly heard before Brandon, and why on earth would Brandon listen to anything LF said even if somehow that did happen?  Why would Lyannas guards/handmaids not have been the ones to report the incident?  Why would they not have immediately rode to Harrenhall and sent out a raven?  It makes no sense to me.

Let's say, for the purpose of discussion, that Littlefinger had indeed been exhiled to the Fingers by then. Is anyone AT the Fingers to verify his presence? Nope. Being "at the Fingers" is basically a stand-in for being anywhere he chooses to be without anyone paying any attention to him.

[aryagonnakill#2]

LF was likely on his way to Fingers at the time Lyanna travelled to Riverrun,  he could have come upon Lyanna and Rhaegar by a chance or upon their messenger, or there was no messenger at all and he simply sent a false info to Brandon, claiming it was from Lyanna's guard or someone like that. Anyway if she was outside of castle, I doubt Lyanna would take handmaidens with her and it is very possible that she was separated even from her guards at the moment.

Let's say, for the purpose of discussion, that Littlefinger had indeed been exhiled to the Fingers by then. Is anyone AT the Fingers to verify his presence? Nope. Being "at the Fingers" is basically a stand-in for being anywhere he chooses to be without anyone paying any attention to him.

Even if LF was not at the Fingers, it still doesn't put him at Harrenhall, which is not on the way to the Vale.  All in all, it seems like your saying its theoretically possible, without providing any reason for it, or able to explain why it's likely.  Is there any reason he would be at Harrenhall, and even if he was, any reason he would be able to get word to Riverrun before the lord of Harrenhall?