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[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3


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16 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Or he just uses snowflakes melting in sad scenes in place of tears where it wouldn't make sense to have the actual characters cry.

I really like this a lot but it still doesn't work in some instances. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/12/2017 at 4:00 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's an understatement! Poor Sansa. 

Does anyone think that the Mad Mouse will make off with her? My hunch is that he will try, and Petyr will use the episode to make her feel even more dependent on him. 

That is exactly what I think, he will have help. I think Sansa will find herself back in King's Landing for trial by combat. This will facilitate the long sought "Cleganebowl".

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2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

That is exactly what I think, he will have help. I think Sansa will find herself back in King's Landing for trial by combat. This will facilitate the long sought "Cleganebowl".

I don't see how the Mad Mouse makes off with her. What's he going to do, drug her and tie her over the back of his horse? How else does she end up in King's Landing? Petyr is not like to send her back, and the folks that oppose Petyr would be even less likely to send her to Cersei. 

ETA

Maybe she tries to escape from Petyr, and the Mad Mouse offers to protect her, but tricks her and takes her to King's Landing? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean
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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't see how the Mad Mouse makes off with her. What's he going to do, drug her and tie her over the back of his horse? How else does she end up in King's Landing? Petyr is not like to send her back, and the folks that oppose Petyr would be even less likely to send her to Cersei. 

ETA

Maybe she tries to escape from Petyr, and the Mad Mouse offers to protect her, but tricks her and takes her to King's Landing? 

That could be but what I think is the ghost of high heart's prophecy, cleganes dualing over her fate is what I interpreted it to mean.

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The Mad Mouse managing to kidnap her just seems to make little to no sense logically. Aside from the difficulty of running off with the de facto leader of the Vale's daughter without anyone stopping you, there is also the difficulty of leaving the Vale. The High Road is pretty much impassible at this point and only likely to get worse as Winter deepens, and Gulltown would be too risky because Petyr would have people on lookout by thentime they reached there. I just don't think it's a workable scenario for Shadrich to take her

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On 10/12/2017 at 6:25 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

The Mad Mouse managing to kidnap her just seems to make little to no sense logically. Aside from the difficulty of running off with the de facto leader of the Vale's daughter without anyone stopping you, there is also the difficulty of leaving the Vale. The High Road is pretty much impassible at this point and only likely to get worse as Winter deepens, and Gulltown would be too risky because Petyr would have people on lookout by thentime they reached there. I just don't think it's a workable scenario for Shadrich to take her

I agree that logistically it's a huge stretch.

I tend to refrain from regarding that as conclusive simply because, as has been the case with many other plot points in this book, if GRRM wants the million-to-one success, it will happen (e.g., Theon capturing Winterfell).

The strongest argument, to my mind, is that Sansa being taken back to KL to be a hostage again is a complete storytelling deadend.  Rather literally, in that it ends with her dead in short order.

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12 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

I agree that logistically it's a huge stretch.

I tend to refrain from regarding that as conclusive simply because, as has been the case with many other plot points in this book, if GRRM wants the million-to-one success, it will happen (e.g., Theon capturing Winterfell).

The strongest argument, to my mind, is that Sansa being taken back to KL to be a hostage again is a complete storytelling deadend.  Rather literally, in that it ends with her dead in short order.

Absolutely, I wouldn't take it as conclusive either, but considered alongside everything else that has constituted Sansa's story so far, and (as you point out) the narrative implications of being taken to Cersei in Kings Landing, it just seems extremely unlikely. It would take some very skilful and unexpected writing for GRRM to write this in a way that I find plausible

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  • 4 weeks later...

My instinctive answer would be that the marriage doesn't happen, particularly as it's not even supposed to be happening soon, from what Littlefinger himself has said (and the issue of Sansa's marriage remains unresolved, unless Littlefinger has some secret angle to deal with that, which I guess is possible).

However, a lot of that depends, I think, on where the main Sansa vs. Littlefinger drama is destined to play out.  If it's going to be conducted mainly on the deliberately isolated stage of the Vale (and thus probably in the course of TWOW), then I'd say it's extremely unlikely.  If, however, GRRM plans to take this show on the road (whether to Winterfell, as Littlefinger says he plans to do, or elsewhere, as many fan theorists posit), then the odds rise considerably.

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On 07/11/2017 at 3:20 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Whether she is kidnapped out, attempt or not, does anyone think she really marries Harry the Heir or someone else is married to her or her to him at that last second in the Vale?

I suspect not, because we probably need someone representing the Maiden in the story - and the story is very short of maidens.

It could be a very last minute intervention though - if not a natural disaster or a dragon, it might be justice arriving in the Vale in the form of Ilyn Payne. Justice is a very primal force - I think it's inevitable that he will find her.

Edited by Springwatch
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57 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I suspect not, because we probably need someone representing the Maiden in the story - and the story is very short of maidens.

It could be a very last minute intervention though - if not a natural disaster or a dragon, it might be justice arriving in the Vale in the form of Ilyn Payne. Justice is a very primal force - I think it's inevitable that he will find her.

:lol: yes indeed.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I suspect not, because we probably need someone representing the Maiden in the story - and the story is very short of maidens.

Even though Sansa is still technically a maiden, I'm struggling to see her as a maiden figure after this.

Quote

He has good teeth, she thought, straight and white. And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples. She ran one finger down his cheek. "Should we ever wed, you'll have to send Saffron back to her father. I'll be all the spice you'll want."

All the same, I'm inclined to think she'll stay a maiden physically if not mentally/emotionally and not be marrying Harry or anyone else in the foreseeable future. Her role as Tyrion's wife opens the door to the Wildlings helping her to escape the Vale.

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The only legit way I can see Sansa marrying i and be considered legal is for an annulment from the High Septon in King's Landing, whomever that is at the time she can get there. Whitnesses and or, an "inspection" by Septas should free her and this is important becasue of any potential claim of her titles and or lands or simply her in general must be considered legitimate. So, at some point, I think she pretty much has to get back to King's Landing. I cannot see her going willingly unless there is a new ruler in town and that very well could be Aegon/FAegon.

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  • 1 month later...
On 2017-11-09 at 4:42 PM, Lollygag said:

Her role as Tyrion's wife opens the door to the Wildlings helping her to escape the Vale.

This is one of those theories you periodically see, but I don’t think it makes any sense.  The clans weren’t even in KL when she married Tyrion, so they’d have no reason to believe anything she said there.  Moreover, the clans worked for Tyrion on a purely transactional basis, and that ended on bad terms; they wouldn’t give a crap about his wife.  Sansa’s skill set is court politics.

Also, if interacting with the clans was going to be important to Sansa’s future story, one imagines that GRRM would have had her interact with them in some way in KL in A Clash of Kings, when they were in the same place.

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I do believe that Ser Shadrich (possibly Howland Reed) is there to rescue Sansa rather than kidnap her. Chances are that he will have help in Ser Morgarth (possibly Elder Brother) and Ser Byron (possibly the Blackwood heir, Brynden).

I don't think Shadrich is after the KL reward ... but his conversation with Brienne was in part, to let her know that a reward for Sansa had been offered (and so to be more wary) ... and in part, to judge from Brienne's reactions whether her intentions were honourable. (In much the same vein as the Liddle's conversation with Bran and Jojen - giving information while testing them obliquely.)

Yohn Royce (and even Randa Royce) might act in Sansa's interests, for different reasons ... and Sansa gives us something to think about in the Alayne chapter when she wonders if Lyn Corbray is really Petyr's bought ally pretending to be an adversary or if he's a true adversary pretending to have been bought.

If Shadrich and his two companions arrived together, it was probably on one of the ships Brienne noted at Maidenpool. There was the Gulltown Girl and the Seastrider.

She and Podrick Payne made the rounds of the ships that remained. The master of the Gulltown Girl took Brienne for a whore and told them that his ship was not a bawdy house, and a harpooner on the Ibbenese whaler offered to buy her boy, but they had better fortune elsewhere. She purchased Podrick an orange on the Seastrider, a cog just in from Oldtown by way of Tyrosh, Pentos, and Duskendale. "Gulltown next," her captain told her, "thence around the Fingers to Sisterton and White Harbor, if the storms allow. She's a clean ship, 'Strider, not so many rats as most, and we'll have fresh eggs and new-churned butter aboard. Is m'lady seeking passage north?" ... AFFC, Brienne V

Shadrich (and perhaps Byron) may already have been aboard since Shadrich had been headed to Duskendale.

Until the situation with the Corbrays comes into sharper focus, I wouldn't rule out an escape through Gulltown. Lyonel's young wife is the daughter of a rich Gulltown merchant who might be susceptible to persuasion.

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On 12/24/2017 at 10:22 PM, Colonel Green said:

This is one of those theories you periodically see, but I don’t think it makes any sense.  The clans weren’t even in KL when she married Tyrion, so they’d have no reason to believe anything she said there.  Moreover, the clans worked for Tyrion on a purely transactional basis, and that ended on bad terms; they wouldn’t give a crap about his wife.  Sansa’s skill set is court politics.

Also, if interacting with the clans was going to be important to Sansa’s future story, one imagines that GRRM would have had her interact with them in some way in KL in A Clash of Kings, when they were in the same place.

Eh, I still give it better odds than you do. The clans were impoverished and starving and it wasn’t even winter yet when Tyrion encountered them. Take the starving and impoverished and add winter on top of it, I don’t think they’ll be in any position to turn up their noses at any possible benefit to helping Sansa Stark Lannister, a prominent member of not one but two major houses, if she shows up on their doorstep wanting help. And Sansa is learning politics and navigating people in general, not exclusively court politics.

I disagree that they’ve forgotten Tyrion’s offer of the Vale as it’s too out of character. These aren’t que será será type fellas. These guys are so stubborn that they’ve refused to conform for thousands of years and they’re extremely possessive of what they consider theirs. And as I said, Sansa might be the difference between life or starvation and freezing to death. And after their experience with non-Arryn lords and having spent time in King’s Landing, I’m guessing they aren’t going to be so eager to resign themselves to their former way of living under the Arryn’s shadow especially with winter looming.

AGOT Tyrion IV

Afterward he knelt by the stream and washed the blood off his face in water cold as ice. As he limped back to the others, he glanced again at the slain. The dead clansmen were thin, ragged men, their horses scrawny and undersized, with every rib showing. What weapons Bronn and Chiggen had left them were none too impressive. Mauls, clubs, a scythe … He remembered the big man in the shadowskin cloak who had dueled Ser Rodrik with a two-handed greatsword, but when he found his corpse sprawled on the stony ground, the man was not so big after all, the cloak was gone, and Tyrion saw that the blade was badly notched, its cheap steel spotted with rust. Small wonder the clansmen had left nine bodies on the ground.

AGOT Tyrion VI

Tyrion was awake in the blink of an eye. The fire had burned down to embers, and the shadows were creeping in all around them. Bronn had raised himself to one knee, his sword in one hand and his dirk in the other. Tyrion held up a hand: stay still, it said. "Come share our fire, the night is cold," he called out to the creeping shadows. "I fear we've no wine to offer you, but you're welcome to some of our goat."

All movement stopped. Tyrion saw the glint of moonlight on metal. "Our mountain," a voice called out from the trees, deep and hard and unfriendly. "Our goat."

"When you meet your gods," a different voice replied, "say it was Gunthor son of Gurn of the Stone Crows who sent you to them." A branch cracked underfoot as he stepped into the light; a thin man in a horned helmet, armed with a long knife.

"And Shagga son of Dolf." That was the first voice, deep and deadly. A boulder shifted to their left, and stood, and became a man. Massive and slow and strong he seemed, dressed all in skins, with a club in his right hand and an axe in his left. He smashed them together as he lumbered closer.

Other voices called other names, Conn and Torrek and Jaggot and more that Tyrion forgot the instant he heard them; ten at least. A few had swords and knives; others brandished pitchforks and scythes and wooden spears. He waited until they were done shouting out their names before he gave them answer. "I am Tyrion son of Tywin, of the Clan Lannister, the Lions of the Rock. We will gladly pay you for the goat we ate."

"What do you have to give us, Tyrion son of Tywin?" asked the one who named himself Gunthor, who seemed to be their chief.

"There is silver in my purse," Tyrion told them. "This hauberk I wear is large for me, but it should fit Conn nicely, and the battle-axe I carry would suit Shagga's mighty hand far better than that wood-axe he holds."

"The half man would pay us with our own coin," said Conn.

"Conn speaks truly," Gunthor said. "Your silver is ours. Your horses are ours. Your hauberk and your battle-axe and the knife at your belt, those are ours too. You have nothing to give us but your lives. How would you like to die, Tyrion son of Tywin?"

"In my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a maiden's mouth around my cock, at the age of eighty," he replied.

The huge one, Shagga, laughed first and loudest. The others seemed less amused. "Conn, take their horses," Gunthor commanded. "Kill the other and seize the halfman. He can milk the goats and make the mothers laugh."

Bronn sprang to his feet. "Who dies first?"

"No!" Tyrion said sharply. "Gunthor son of Gurn, hear me. My House is rich and powerful. If the Stone Crows will see us safely through these mountains, my lord father will shower you with gold."

"The gold of a lowland lord is as worthless as a half man's promises," Gunthor said.

"Half a man I may be," Tyrion said, "yet I have the courage to face my enemies. What do the Stone Crows do, but hide behind rocks and shiver with fear as the knights of the Vale ride by?"

Shagga gave a roar of anger and clashed club against axe. Jaggot poked at Tyrion's face with the fire-hardened point of a long wooden spear. He did his best not to flinch. "Are these the best weapons you could steal?" he said. "Good enough for killing sheep, perhaps … if the sheep do not fight back. My father's smiths shit better steel."

"Little boyman," Shagga roared, "will you mock my axe after I chop off your manhood and feed it to the goats?"

But Gunthor raised a hand. "No. I would hear his words. The mothers go hungry, and steel fills more mouths than gold. What would you give us for your lives, Tyrion son of Tywin? Swords? Lances? Mail?"

"All that, and more, Gunthor son of Gurn," Tyrion Lannister replied, smiling. "I will give you the Vale of Arryn."

 

As to Sansa and the Wildlings not having a significant interaction yet, I might agree if this was a different series. Due to the number of characters, this rule isn’t really practical to apply here, and sometimes (like with Sansa and the Wildlings) this would be a rather screaming spoiler to the astute reader. Other characters have crossed paths in previous books and not interacted on page yet they became important to each other’s arc in the future. Catelyn/Jaime is a big one, some combinations of Stark kids, more…

 

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On 11/10/2017 at 10:18 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

The only legit way I can see Sansa marrying i and be considered legal is for an annulment from the High Septon in King's Landing, whomever that is at the time she can get there. Whitnesses and or, an "inspection" by Septas should free her and this is important becasue of any potential claim of her titles and or lands or simply her in general must be considered legitimate. So, at some point, I think she pretty much has to get back to King's Landing. I cannot see her going willingly unless there is a new ruler in town and that very well could be Aegon/FAegon.

If I was Sansa, I wouldn't go anywhere near someone that my Dad screwed over that much.

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