[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Elegant Woes]

Something tells me that Sansa's storyline will be one of the most surprising ones in TWOW. Bold prediction on my part, but I think that Sansa will be forced to flee from the Vale and there are several hints that point to that:

After the backlash from that storyline one of the writers of the show tried to justify the changes by telling that Sansa has very few chapters in the Vale anyway. That should tell us that Sansa's storyline will be anything but predictable. 

The mountain clans attacking the Vale is a Chekhov's Gun that has yet to be shot. So far GRRM had done nothing with it because there was no POV character in the Vale, but now there's one and this is a too good storyline to be ignored. Blood will be shed in the Vale, there's no doubt about that. 

Sansa has cursed Harry to fall from his horse and break his neck. Once Sansa prays something it's bound to happen one day. (Example: she cursed one of Janos Slynt's sons to fall from his horse and shame himself and it happened. She called for Janos Slynt to be beheaded and it happened. She wanted the Sept of Baelor to burn and by the looks of it, that will happen in the upcoming book). 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Elegant Woes

[chrisdaw]

7 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Once Sansa prays something it's bound to happen one day.

And the best one.

Quote

and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

 

[divica]

9 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Something tells me that Sansa's storyline will be one of the most surprising ones in TWOW. Bold prediction on my part, but I think that Sansa will be forced to flee from the Vale and there are several hints that point to that:

After the backlash from that storyline one of the writers of the show tried to justify the changes by telling that Sansa has very few chapters in the Vale anyway. That should tell us that Sansa's storyline will be anything but predictable. 

The mountain clans attacking the Vale is a Chekhov's Gun that has yet to be shot. So far GRRM had done nothing with it because there was no POV character in the Vale, but now there's one and this is a too good storyline to be ignored. Blood will be shed in the Vale, there's no doubt about that. 

Sansa has cursed Harry to fall from his horse and break his neck. Once Sansa prays something it's bound to happen one day. (Example: she cursed one of Janos Slynt's sons to fall from his horse and shame himself and it happened. She called for Janos Slynt to be beheaded and it happened. She wanted the Sept of Baelor to burn and by the looks of it, that will happen in the upcoming book). 

 

I think you are completly wrong for 2 simple reasons. First, sansa's story seems to be about her killing LF and she is very far from doing it. Second, if she leaves the vale we loose our pov in the vale and given the lack of leadership there it doesn t really make sense… Wether she is connected to LF, sweetrobin or Harry the heir she is posed to be a major character in the vale's leadership.

Personally, I think her arc will be about gaining control of the vale, killing LF and helping one of her brothers protect the north. And her number of chaps in the vale is kind of irrelevant. She would never have more than 10 chaps in the vale and a lot of them related to the tourney… Given grrm style we will have what? 2 chaps post tourney and a total of 6 alayne chaps? IT won t be very diferent from this… she can t get very far in the next book...

[Elegant Woes]

3 hours ago, divica said:

I think you are completly wrong for 2 simple reasons. First, sansa's story seems to be about her killing LF and she is very far from doing it. Second, if she leaves the vale we loose our pov in the vale and given the lack of leadership there it doesn t really make sense… Wether she is connected to LF, sweetrobin or Harry the heir she is posed to be a major character in the vale's leadership.

Personally, I think her arc will be about gaining control of the vale, killing LF and helping one of her brothers protect the north. And her number of chaps in the vale is kind of irrelevant. She would never have more than 10 chaps in the vale and a lot of them related to the tourney… Given grrm style we will have what? 2 chaps post tourney and a total of 6 alayne chaps? IT won t be very diferent from this… she can t get very far in the next book...

Sansa's storyline isn't just about killing Littlefinger. It's about a young girl who has been stripped from her agency and learns how to gain that back by getting slowly closer to her roots (the North). Her storyline is headed towards Winterfell. I don't think she will go there with an army behind her back. There's no conflict in the heart in that. If Sansa flees from the Vale and tries to get to Jon (the only family she believes to have at this point) we would get:

An interesting twist to the Princess of the Tower trope. Fairytales but with a twist has been part of Sansa's narrative from day one. Many of them have come up in her story, but the strongest one is Rapunzel, and if GRRM likes to put interesting twist to these tales in Sansa's chapters then this one will have it too. And the best way to deconstruct the Rapunzel fairytale is to have the princess voluntarily leave the tower. 

Fits into GRRM'S 'conflict of the heart'. This would challenge Sansa as a character a lot. So far we have seen her walk into the footsteps of Ned, Lyanna and Jon, but we have yet to see her walk into Arya's and Bran's foots. 

A strong hunting imagery is in this chapter. If Sansa tries to flee the Vale it would explain why there's such thing in this chapter. Something tells me Sansa will encounter Ramsay, but narrowly escape from him, as she tries to flee to the Wall. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Elegant Woes

[chrisdaw]

Sansa's arc is not going to take her to the north or Winterfell, she'll be in KL after the Vale to move her pawns in the game of thrones. Her central conflict is if she is Sansa Stark or Sansa Lannister, honour and fairness or power and avarice. Really the culmination will look more like a question of if there's any Stark left inside of her, or has she gone completely to Lannister. Does she care at all for the collateral damage she'll cause in claiming and holding power, for the feelings and safety of her loyal pawns.

[Elegant Woes]

Quote

The Lannister woman shall never have this skin. 

Sansa's endgame has been confirmed since the death of lady. Since no Lannister laid a hand on lady, naturally no Lannister will ever lay a hand on Sansa. Since Lady has been buried in the lichyard at Winterfell, it's a given that Sansa will end up being buried in Winterfell. No matter where she is there will always be a part of her that is tied to the North. Sansa Stark has literally become Lady of Winterfell. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Elegant Woes

[redriver]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa's endgame has been confirmed since the death of lady. Since no Lannister laid a hand on lady, naturally no Lannister will ever lay a hand on Sansa. Since Lady has been buried in the lichyard at Winterfell, it's a given that Sansa will end up being buried in Winterfell. No matter where she is there will always be a part of her that is tied to the North. Sansa Stark has literally become Lady of Winterfell. 

That sounds fantastic, but it doesn't make a jot of sense."Since no Lannister........." sounds like a rule that a pair of three year olds would make up in the playground.There is no such rule.

That aside I think Shadrich's role is being underplayed,since he could well be Howland Reed.

[Elegant Woes]

@redriver Its no rule. Just a fairly accepted interpretation of Lady's death on this board forum. I just took that further and put my own twist on it. 

Interesting theory. I have never heard of that one. Care to elaborate on the possibility of Shadrich being Howland Reed?

Edited November 4, 2019 by Elegant Woes

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa's endgame has been confirmed since the death of lady. Since no Lannister laid a hand on lady, naturally no Lannister will ever lay a hand on Sansa. Since Lady has been buried in the lichyard at Winterfell, it's a given that Sansa will end up being buried in Winterfell. No matter where she is there will always be a part of her that is tied to the North. Sansa Stark has literally become Lady of Winterfell. 

I actually believe Sansa will be raised up as Queen in the North, and not just because the mummer's version did that, but because I believe history is undoing itself. We have already witnessed several historical events reoccur and with opposite outcomes. A rough timeline has the Children "helping" the Last Hero, the Wall built, the Nights King defeated, the arrival and rise of the Andals to the throne, the Faith Militant defeated, the arrival of Nymeria and her marriage to Dorne, and the arrival of dragons and the Targaryen dynasty. These same events are reoccurring, but out of order:

The Targaryen reign ended when Jaime slew Aerys.

Arianne Martel (representing Dorne) is on her way to propose a marriage alliance to Young Griff (representing the Rhoynar). If its true that history is undoing itself then either Young Griff will refuse an alliance with Dorne or the marriage will be a disaster.

The Faith Militant appears poised to dismantle the Andal's hold on the Iron Throne.

Lord Commander Jon Snow was stabbed multiple times by some of the men of the Watch. It appears he may be resurrected to life as the Nights King and ally himself with the wildlings to free the King Beyond the Wall and take Winterfell from the current Lord.

The blizzard at the Wall and Winterfell appears to be the Wall disintegrating and blowing away in the form of a winter storm.

Which leaves us with the origin story of the Last Hero. What exactly did the Children do to help him? Waymar Royce in the prologue of A Game of Thrones seemed to repeat elements of Old Nan's story including a broken sword and the deaths of his companions. Waymar rose again as a wight, harder and stronger, so maybe the Children raised the Last Hero from the dead?

But what happened before the Last Hero? We know some of the First Men aligned themselves with the Children and signed a Pact....but before even then we have the tale of Durran Godsgrief marrying Elenei who was the daughter of two gods: the sea god (water) and the goddess of the wind (air). Its said Elenei "chose" to be mortal, which means she was originally god-like, but became human. Does that even sound like a factual account? IMO this is actually a fanciful oral history that explains how humans learned how to work magic.

I think the Children are trying to correct some past wrong and I think it has to do with "magic". They introduced the use of magic to defend themselves from mankind, but the unintended consequence was that mankind learned how to use magic too. Sansa is the current version of Elenei just as her aunt Lyanna was before her. Lyanna was promised to a Storm Lord who was raised at Storms End - the fortress built by Durran Godsgrief thousands of years ago. Lyanna died before the Storm Lord could marry her, so the historical event has passed onto Sansa - or Arya. It could be either daughter of Winterfell. It seems like Lyanna's fate got split with Sansa and Arya each getting half. Arya has already become "no one". Symbolically, she is dead. This should leave Sansa - the daughter of parents who seem to have reversed roles from Elenei's - to "live", or become god-like.

Elenei's father was associated with "water", but Sansa's mother Catelyn has the water imagery of the Riverlands. Elenei's mother was associated with "air", but Sansa's father Ned is associated with the cold winds of winter. Sansa will be the one to "deal" with magic, but I don't think she has to die to resolve it. After the Nights King defeats the Lord of Winterfell, I think he'll give the castle to his sister, and Sansa will become the first Queen in the North.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Feather Crystal

[redriver]

7 hours ago, redriver said:

That sounds fantastic, but it doesn't make a jot of sense."Since no Lannister........." sounds like a rule that a pair of three year olds would make up in the playground.There is no such rule.

That aside I think Shadrich's role is being underplayed,since he could well be Howland Reed.

Here is one thread.I like the theory for the most part.Not so sure about Byron and Morgarth.

[chrisdaw]

13 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa's endgame has been confirmed since the death of lady. Since no Lannister laid a hand on lady, naturally no Lannister will ever lay a hand on Sansa. Since Lady has been buried in the lichyard at Winterfell, it's a given that Sansa will end up being buried in Winterfell. No matter where she is there will always be a part of her that is tied to the North. Sansa Stark has literally become Lady of Winterfell. 

Plenty of Lannisters have laid their hands on Sansa, literally and figuratively. They've moulded her, she's thinking and speaking in Cersei terms, one to one. She's obviously not the Lady of Winterfell in any capacity, and she is behaving contrary to the teachings of Winterfell. Catelyn and Ned would disgust at her involvement in LF's scheming and the treatment of SR, but Cersei would understand.

The arc is pawn to player. Naive sweetling learns life's realities the hard way and grows into the best most perceptive and ruthless of power players. The Vale with its mini political web is the training course, from there she will graduate to the main game in KL.

[Elegant Woes]

@chrisdaw Did you even read Sansa's chapters, or do you just skim through the pages? Because everything you just said doesn't make any sense. Yes it's true that she learns from Cersei and other characters in King's Landing, but Sansa is very selective on what skills she chooses to put in her arsenal. 

When Cersei says the only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy. Sansa responds with:

Quote

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me

A far cry from 'thinking and speaking in Cersei terms' like you said. Sansa proves herself to be right in the very same chapter when she sings the mother hymn to Sandor Clegane and effectively disarms him by forgiving him even when he does not deserve it. That action changed the course of Sandor's life and possibly pushed him to a road of letting go of his anger and seek redemption. Love is the surest way to gain the people's loyalty. 

This line of thinking is also proven again in this TWOW chapter with the winged knights. Littlefinger thinks Sansa's plan would be perfect because it allows him to spy on the young sons and heirs of the Vale Lords & Ladies and possibly hold them hostage to black mail. Sansa, however, came with this idea in order to inspire courage in Robert and for him to have good role models around him. Once again there goes your idea that Sansa follows the way of Cersei and that she doesn't care about Sweetrobin. 

Contrary to what you might believe Sansa's arc isn't about shedding her morals and ideals and turning into a person that is cynical and ruthless like her shady mentors. It's about growing into conviction that she has live out the values she learned from songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. Sansa might not be the most clever compared to other characters, but she's easily wiser than those twice and even trice her age. And she's doing that at the age of thirteen.

Ultimately Sansa is set to be a foil to the likes of Cersei, Sandor, Margaery, Olenna and Littlefinger. She will do something they were never able to do: become a politician without being an awful human being. 

And Ned and Catelyn would be proud of the woman she's becoming. They would be so proud that despite the fact she's surrounded by so many vipers Sansa never loses her kindness or her conviction. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Elegant Woes

[chrisdaw]

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@chrisdaw Did you even read Sansa's chapters, or do you just skim through the pages? Because everything you just said doesn't make any sense. Yes it's true that she learns from Cersei and other characters in King's Landing, but Sansa is very selective on what skills she chooses to put in her arsenal. 

When Cersei says the only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy. Sansa responds with:

A far cry from 'thinking and speaking in Cersei terms' like you said. Sansa proves herself to be right in the very same chapter when she sings the mother hymn to Sandor Clegane and effectively disarms him by forgiving him even when he does not deserve it. That action changed the course of Sandor's life and possibly pushed him to a road of letting go of his anger and seek redemption. Love is the surest way to gain the people's loyalty. 

This line of thinking is also proven again in this TWOW chapter with the winged knights. Littlefinger thinks Sansa's plan would be perfect because it allows him to spy on the young sons and heirs of the Vale Lords & Ladies and possibly hold them hostage to black mail. Sansa, however, came with this idea in order to inspire courage in Robert and for him to have good role models around him. Once again there goes your idea that Sansa follows the way of Cersei and that she doesn't care about Sweetrobin. 

Contrary to what you might believe Sansa's arc isn't about shedding her morals and ideals and turning into a person that is cynical and ruthless like her shady mentors. It's about growing into conviction that she has live out the values she learned from songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. Sansa might not be the most clever compared to other characters, but she's easily wiser than those twice and even trice her age. And she's doing that at the age of thirteen.

Ultimately Sansa is set to be a foil to the likes of Cersei, Sandor, Margaery, Olenna and Littlefinger. She will do something they were never able to do: become a politician without being an awful human being. 

And Ned and Catelyn would be proud of the woman she's becoming. They would be so proud that despite the fact she's surrounded by so many vipers Sansa never loses her kindness or her conviction. 

Rainbows and unicorns again. Yes there is the minor theme in her arc that love and kindness can inspire greater people and people to be greater than fear and material wealth. And that's all you're correct about. Sansa is not about to play the game of thrones honourably, the game of thrones can not be played honourably, that should be apparent by now, that point has been well and often made. It is not for no reason she's neck deep in trading the little fool's health for political gain, reeling in Harry or starving the populace for profit. Tears are not a woman's only weapon, dead men tell no tales, such have been her lessons, and she's a parrot, watch, learn, recite.

[Nevets]

38 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Rainbows and unicorns again. Yes there is the minor theme in her arc that love and kindness can inspire greater people and people to be greater than fear and material wealth. And that's all you're correct about. Sansa is not about to play the game of thrones honourably, the game of thrones can not be played honourably, that should be apparent by now, that point has been well and often made. It is not for no reason she's neck deep in trading the little fool's health for political gain, reeling in Harry or starving the populace for profit. Tears are not a woman's only weapon, dead men tell no tales, such have been her lessons, and she's a parrot, watch, learn, recite.

I'm going to have to go with @Elegant Woes on this one.

Sansa's retention of her basic decency and kindness isn't a minor theme, it's the principal theme of her story.  She has been through such horrors, andn had people try to change her for the worse, it is amazing she is as nice as she is.

Of course it is possible to play the Game of Thrones honorably.  Essentially, it is the Westeros version of politics.  And the methods used, such as manipulation, persuasion, or even coercion, can be used for good ends or bad.  Cersei has had a tendency to use them for ill, as has Littlefinger.  I expect that Sansa will not follow in their footsteps.  Her personality and world view are very different from theirs and her upbringing as the child of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully will stand her in good stead.

At this point, the only person's political gain she is actively seeking is Robert's.  Any health trade-offs, such as using sweetsleep to calm him on the trip down from the Eyrie, and done for this purpose, so he will become more confident and not be seen as too weak.

My impression of what is going on is that GRRM is setting up Littlefinger to be Sansa's antagonist.  He will obviously be her mentor, but she will eventually break with him.  The other Stark children have similar arcs as well.  Arya will learn from the FM, but eventually break with them, and I think Bran will do the same with Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest, who I expect have an agenda that Bran will ultimately disagree with.

[chrisdaw]

The game of thrones can not be played honourably because the means are dishonourable, it requires such things as drugging and slowly poisoning your sickly cousin so that they'll be compliant, and banking on their death. You have to try very hard to not see the point being made in the text.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The game of thrones can not be played honourably because the means are dishonourable, it requires such things as drugging and slowly poisoning your sickly cousin so that they'll be compliant, and banking on their death. You have to try very hard to not see the point being made in the text.

It requires nothing of the sort.  And there is little to nothing to indicate that Sansa is even aware that Robert is being drugged harmfully.  I don't believe for a minute that she is intent on harming Robert, as opposed to negligently causing or allowing harm to occur, which is entirely possible.  She has yet to deliberately harm another person, and I don't see her starting now.

As for Littlefinger's comment about Robert being destined to die, everybody expects him to die well before adulthood.  Jaime even says he "won't live long enough to breed."  And it wasn't homicide that he was expecting to be the cause, either.  The boy is sickly, and has been for a long time.

I do worry about Sansa maybe being a bit too biddable, and too willing to ignore unpleasant facts, but that is a far cry from seeking advancement over her cousin's dead body,, for which I see no evidence whatsoever.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Nevets

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

It requires nothing of the sort.

You're just handwaving swathes of text as if it's meaningless. It's not.

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You're just handwaving swathes of text as if it's meaningless. It's not.

Care to elaborate?

[Elegant Woes]

If Sansa was aware that little Robert was been poisoned then she would not hope that he would marry a girl one day who will like his long brown hair. 

[Lady Winter Rose]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

If Sansa was aware that little Robert was been poisoned then she would not hope that he would marry a girl one day who will like his long brown hair. 

I took that like "I wish, but not going to happen anyway"