Jump to content

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3


Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Things don't need that much elaborating, Sansa's use of drugs to sedate SR against the protestations of his maester concerned for the boy's health is not a benevolent act.

I think you are reading way too much into that one conversation.  As far as Sansa knows, sweetsleep is the only means available to stop his fits, and they need to be stopped for the trip down from the Eyrie.  If I recall correctly, she agrees not to give him any more in the future, which seems to mollify the maester.  

I doubt that Sansa knows much about how sweetleep works.  I'm not entirely sure myself.  

And there is nothing in her thoughts about harming Sweetrobin.  As I've said before, her actions may be negligent, but there is no reason to believe that they are in any way malign.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think you are reading way too much into that one conversation.

And I think you are ignoring important thematic inclusions in the text because they don't fit your wishes. Sansa forcing sweet sleep on Robert is a part of the story for a reason, and that reason is not to show she is negligent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/8/2019 at 11:16 AM, Elegant Woes said:

If Sansa was aware that little Robert was been poisoned then she would not hope that he would marry a girl one day who will like his long brown hair. 

Maybe Jon... Jon totally digs Satin and his black curls. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Is anyone certain that Shadrick recognizes sansa? Did Littlefinger tell him it was her? That would seem reckless for someone who likes to keep everyone guessing. As to Littlefingers Sansa motivation, I feel like he would somehow kill SweetRobin and let Sana marry Harry the Heir. Once Harry has the Veil and Sana’a has the support of the north, maybe Littlefinger offs Harry and reassumed control over the veil and attempts to marry Sansa? Lots of holes in this theory I realize. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/21/2020 at 6:17 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

Is anyone certain that Shadrick recognizes sansa? Did Littlefinger tell him it was her? That would seem reckless for someone who likes to keep everyone guessing. As to Littlefingers Sansa motivation, I feel like he would somehow kill SweetRobin and let Sana marry Harry the Heir. Once Harry has the Veil and Sana’a has the support of the north, maybe Littlefinger offs Harry and reassumed control over the veil and attempts to marry Sansa? Lots of holes in this theory I realize. 

Shadrick made it clear to Sansa that he knew who she was in the spoiler.  When they are in the yard watching Corbray beat up on the other knight.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/8/2020 at 3:40 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Shadrick made it clear to Sansa that he knew who she was in the spoiler.  When they are in the yard watching Corbray beat up on the other knight.

Shadrich made it clear to the readers that he knew who she was. A huge difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

 

 

By itself, the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart does not suggest that the castle made of snow should be Winterfell. All of the usual connections (like Sansa-Starks-Winterfell etc.) are flimsy evidences at best. Winterfell is not made out of snow, nor can it be symbolically or figuratively referred to as such.

For example, if it was built of white stones like Whitewalls, then the poetic license in a prophetic line could have been accepted for the case of Winterfell. The castle might get covered with snow during winters but so are almost all the castles in the north and many others in the south. There is no way to single out Winterfell if we are talking about literal snow.

The only way to single out Winterfell in the prophetic context among a host of potential castles made of snow is the scene with Robert’s doll where Sansa literally built Winterfell out of snow. That means the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart about the maid is not enough to specify a particular castle and further explanation is required. Now, it is possible that GRRM provided this further explanation meant for Winterfell in the same book where he also revealed the prophecy.

There are several problems with this plan. First of all, a lot of readers might take the savaging of the doll as the fulfilment of the prophecy, which is not the purpose at all. One cannot simply prophesize the savaging of a stupid doll in the same sentence with the deaths of kings. Another thing is that the scene with Robert’s doll is extremely heavy in symbolism and foreshadowing without having anything to do with the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart.

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

“You know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by.”

...

A Storm of Swords - Sansa III

He [Tyrion] hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. “Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”

...

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

“Winterfell is the seat of House Stark,” Sansa told her husband-to-be. “The great castle of the north.”

“It’s not so great.” The boy knelt before the gatehouse. “Look, here comes a giant to knock it down.” He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. “Tromp tromp I’m a giant, I’m a giant,” he chanted. “Ho ho ho, open your gates or I’ll mash them and smash them.” Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.

It was more than Sansa could stand. “Robert, stop that.” Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.

Lord Robert’s mouth trembled. “You killlllllllled him,” he wailed.

 

 

The erotic metaphor about the gatehouse, the portcullis and come-into-the-castle is self-evident. In addition to the giant doll that attacks Sansa’s gatehouse, LF (the savage giant) literally says that he wants to come-into-Sansa's-castle.

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,” Petyr said. “May I come into your castle, my lady?”

 

 

With this perspective, “the giant doll” attacking “Sansa’s gatehouse” (and paying for it with his head) is itself foreshadowing a rape attempt in which Sansa slays the rapist. This result can be inferred without the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart. The only problem is of course where it will take place.

But this was mostly ASoS we are talking about and GRRM wrote it with a 5 year gap to follow. In the later stages of the writing, he dropped the gap, expanded the story and did a lot of major revisions.

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

The Eyrie shrank above them. The sky cells on the lower levels made the castle look something like a honeycomb from below. A honeycomb made of ice, Alayne thought, a castle made of snow.

 

 

Among other things, he made sure that Sansa literally refers to Eyrie as a “castle made of snow” in AFfC. Of course, Eyrie will be closed and unavailable during winter. GRRM solved that problem in the sample Alayne chapter from TWoW.

 

Quote

 

The Winds of Winter - Alayne

And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.

 

 

Recalling how GRRM likes to play with prophecies, we can realize how strongly above two quotes serve as evidence for the solution of the prophecy.

 

Quote

 

Surely the plot is very unpredictable despite all the prophecies you give to help us…

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

 

 

Conclusion

Even if GRRM originally planned to have the slaying of the savage giant at Winterfell, the evidence from the later stages of the writing suggests that the castle made of snow will be Eyrie made of sugar that adorns the giant lemon cake. This is perfectly aligned with how GRRM likes to play with prophecies. And this whole thing will take place quite soon, while that Eyrie made of sugar is still on the table (literally).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Wondering if Sansa could inherit Castle Harrhanhal with her Alayne ruse. It holds no wealth or protection but perhaps it could be used to spring a trap on Starrk enemies. 

 

Another thing that has been griping me, as many people have pointed out Sansa's act as Alayne is so terrible anyone asking questions about her background could see something amiss. Perhaps Sansa knows that and is willing playing stupid till she can get more cards for herself to play. To me it seems odd her she would be so trusting to Myranda given how her friendship with Margery and Dontos ended up. Dontos also told her playing dumb does have advantages, you can overhear a lot of things. 

 

To me Sansa has come along way only to end up falling for the same trap. Her final quote in her 1st chapter in ACOKS was “

Quote

Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted her his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.”

She should know better at this point. She also is knowledgeable about her claim to Winterfell and it's bargaining power.  

Edited by Prince_Of_SummerIsles
wanted to talk about winterfell
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...
On 9/13/2017 at 12:10 AM, Stormy4400 said:

Hi everyone,

Well, this is my first post on the forums.  Like most everyone, I come to Westeros.org when I need to do some research on a subject or character from ASOIAF.   I've been lurking on the forums but as it had been years since I first read the books, beginning with the publication of the first 20 years ago, I never felt comfortable posting.  However, during the last year, I've been re-reading the books and have felt comfortable enough to start posting my comments online.  

As I mentioned, I've been lurking and reading the various threads and decided to make my first post in this one because as I was reading it, I thought that I would run across a particular analysis and as I didn't, I started to wonder if I was crazy...and maybe I am and it led to me deciding to de-lurk and ask a question.  There were also a lot of pages to the thread and as I skip a few, it's possible that I missed what I expected to see, and in that case, apologies.

The question I wanted to ask is does anyone else see the probability that GRRM is using the search for SR's Winged Knight Kingsguard as a reenactment of The Tourney of Harrenhal?  

Everything seems to be in place for it.  You have Lyanna, the lady wolf in the form of Sansa; her betroth, Robert in the form of Harry (even down to him replicating Robert in the fathering of bastard children); the event is taking place in the Vale of Arryn where Robert was fostered and where he had his first bastard, Mya; you have a short in stature hedge knight in Ser Shadrich (although he is of a different moral character than Howland); And, I suspect that eventually, Brienne will end up in the Vale and will be representative of the "non" laughing knight.  The only person missing is the Rheghar stand-in, which I believe will be Jon as it was hinted at in Sansa's last chapter in AFFC as she descended from the Eyrie and the wind was described as howling fiercely.   "It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf as big as mountains."

To me, this hints at one of two things. The first option is that Ghost would be in the Eyrie and where there's Ghost, Jon is not far behind. Or the second possibility is that Ghost dies when Jon is brought back and it's symbolic Jon the ghost that Sansa is sensing in the mountains.  Either way, I think that it's a safe bet that when Jon leaves the Wall as he no doubt will, he will head south passing the Eyrie and will probably participate in the Tourney after he recognizes Sansa.  At some point both Jon and Sansa will have to go back to Winterfell but as the story left off, Stannis will be the one to take back Winterfell or at least attempt to do so.  Since Winterfell is not currently an option for him, it makes sense that he would head south and end up at the Eyrie...especially as it's obvious that the Knights of the Vale and House Arryn have a major role to play in the endgame.

So what does everyone think?  Do you think this scenario as I outline could play out.

 

 

I was snooping around your profile after reading your Jonquil/bees/Sansa essay and stumbled upon this post. I have to say, I think you and I have more in common than you might think! I see almost the exact same things you are seeing, but a couple years later than you. I’m going to link a current post where I was proposing much the same as you. I hope you’ll read it along with an OP that I did on Shadrich. Links to both:

Shadrich OP:

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/469/harrenhal-twilight-zone-play

post link:

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 5/25/2020 at 1:34 AM, Prince_Of_SummerIsles said:

Wondering if Sansa could inherit Castle Harrhanhal with her Alayne ruse. It holds no wealth or protection but perhaps it could be used to spring a trap on Starrk enemies. 

 

Another thing that has been griping me, as many people have pointed out Sansa's act as Alayne is so terrible anyone asking questions about her background could see something amiss. Perhaps Sansa knows that and is willing playing stupid till she can get more cards for herself to play. To me it seems odd her she would be so trusting to Myranda given how her friendship with Margery and Dontos ended up. Dontos also told her playing dumb does have advantages, you can overhear a lot of things. 

 

To me Sansa has come along way only to end up falling for the same trap. Her final quote in her 1st chapter in ACOKS was “

She should know better at this point. She also is knowledgeable about her claim to Winterfell and it's bargaining power.  

House Whent had its rights to Harrenhal stripped for supporting Robb via House Lannister who in turn gave those rights to Littlefinger.

Sansa's mother's mother was Minisa Whent, which (via matrilineage) makes Sansa a rival for LF's seat.  Definitely gonna be a lot of Harrenhal in her future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/14/2021 at 9:03 PM, Isobel Harper said:

ansa's mother's mother was Minisa Whent, which (via matrilineage) makes Sansa a rival for LF's seat.  Definitely gonna be a lot of Harrenhal in her future.

 

If we are going that far into history for claim Harrenhal scheme, there's Edmure, Brandon and Rickon, who in turn have better claims to Harrenhal... or simply, new king/queen can assign Harrenhal to new lord. Because that's much easier than chasing rabbits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/27/2021 at 11:38 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

 

If we are going that far into history for claim Harrenhal scheme, there's Edmure, Brandon and Rickon, who in turn have better claims to Harrenhal... or simply, new king/queen can assign Harrenhal to new lord. Because that's much easier than chasing rabbits.

Per primogeniture that doesn't favor either sex, Sansa has the closest proximity to claim in Minisa Whent's line, Catelyn being her oldest child and Sansa being Catelyn's oldest surviving child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading this, one thing that I'm surprised has only just occurred to me now (others must have posted about it), is if Littlefinger has Alayne declared as a legitimate daughter of his and is therefore entitled to inherit his possessions.  Littlefinger will need to offer a favour to a king/queen for that, but he seems very adept at doing that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 4/12/2015 at 8:32 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Sitting near the fire had to be about highlighting her hair, and we know from feast that she is running low on dye so the red undertones will have been shining through here. Interesting, I think there are certain people whom he wants to know or at least suspect who she really is.

I know I am rather late to the party, but I recently had some similiar thoughts and am pretty sure that Alayne will be recognized as Sansa Stark because of her hair. Here is more textual evidence for this:

-When horns sounding announce that the Waynwoods and Harry the Heir have arrived, Myranda and Alayne race towards the gate to welcome them, and after that, Alayne thinks about her hair:

Quote

Her hair must be a frightful mess after all that running. It took all her will to stop herself from trying to tuck the loose strands back into place. Never mind your stupid hair. Your hair doesn't matter. It's him that matters. Him, and the Waynwoods. (TWOW, Alayne aka Sansa I)

So she tells herself that her "hair doesn't matter" - this might indicate that it actually does matter a lot.

Then there are the tapestries:

Quote

Alayne swept down the tower stairs to enter the pillared gallery at the back of the Great Hall. (...) Lord Nestor was showing Lady Waxley his prize tapestries, with their scenes of hunt and chase. The same panels had once hung in the Red Keep of King's Landing, when Robert sat the Iron Throne. Joffrey had them taken down and they had languished in some cellar until Petyr Baelish arranged for them to be brought to the Vale as a gift for Nestor Royce. Not only were the hangings beautiful, but the High Steward delighted in telling anyone who'd listen that they had once belonged to a king. (TWOW, Alayne)

As far as I recall, these tapestries show members of House Baratheon, who have black hair, and Littlefinger wanted them because they prove/might give people the idea that Cersei's children are not Robert's. But they also indicate that your hair says something about your "heiritage". This might foreshadow that Sansa will be recognized by her hair, which is probably already glowing red because she's sitting next to a fire.

I also agree that Littlefinger wants certain people to figure out who his "bastard daughter " really is (he's to clever for it to happen without him having planned it, or preventing it if he doesn't want it to happen). But whom and why? Is it his way of telling people (like Bronze Yohn Royce) "look, I don't just have loads of money, I even have the heir to Winterfell, so you'd better get along with me and my plans"? Does he want people to know so they are okay with his betrothal of "Alayne" to the Young Falcon (for whom Sansa Stark is actually a good match)? Or does he have a completely different plan...?
 

Curious about what you guys think on that matter ;-)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, SansaTakingUpNeedle said:

I know I am rather late to the party, but I recently had some similiar thoughts and am pretty sure that Alayne will be recognized as Sansa Stark because of her hair. Here is more textual evidence for this:

-When horns sounding announce that the Waynwoods and Harry the Heir have arrived, Myranda and Alayne race towards the gate to welcome them, and after that, Alayne thinks about her hair:

So she tells herself that her "hair doesn't matter" - this might indicate that it actually does matter a lot.

Then there are the tapestries:

As far as I recall, these tapestries show members of House Baratheon, who have black hair, and Littlefinger wanted them because they prove/might give people the idea that Cersei's children are not Robert's. But they also indicate that your hair says something about your "heiritage". This might foreshadow that Sansa will be recognized by her hair, which is probably already glowing red because she's sitting next to a fire.

I also agree that Littlefinger wants certain people to figure out who his "bastard daughter " really is (he's to clever for it to happen without him having planned it, or preventing it if he doesn't want it to happen). But whom and why? Is it his way of telling people (like Bronze Yohn Royce) "look, I don't just have loads of money, I even have the heir to Winterfell, so you'd better get along with me and my plans"? Does he want people to know so they are okay with his betrothal of "Alayne" to the Young Falcon (for whom Sansa Stark is actually a good match)? Or does he have a completely different plan...?
 

Curious about what you guys think on that matter ;-)

 

IIRC, we know that the tapestries show hunting scenes. Some have speculated that the tapestries depict Baratheons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Looking back at this chapter and I have to admit, Myranda is a goddamn delight. She may turn treacherous and betray Sansa at some point, but right now she's a lot of fun and I can't wait to read more scenes of hers.

After looking at the wiki, I really have a hard time not believing that there is something to the Ashford Tourney Theory. Humphrey Hardyng and Harry Hardyng are the only Hardyngs ever mentioned in canon. (There is something to be said for how Humphrey died in the tourney too. I think most of us are inclined to believe that Harry isn't long for the world). It's true that there is no Arryn in the line-up, but since The Hedge Knight came out before A Storm of Swords, GRRM could have just decided to add that bit after he already published the novella. If the theory is true though, I think that it indicates that Littlefinger is planning on wedding Sansa to fAegon . . . which will ultimately fall through since Aegon isn't long for the world either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...