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Xray the Enforcer

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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So she would provide legitimacy to a court that isn't really a court? Sansa doesn't have that kind of influence. And even if she did, she's wanted for killing a king herself. I don't see any opportunities in KL for Sansa until after the war with the Others is finished. There is too much chaos and too many forces pushing her North, from her own will to LF trying to get her to claim WF (with HtH and an army of the Vale).

Dany's followers consist of Dothraki, sellswords, an exiled knight, a hated dwarf and an army of eunuchs. If noblemen or -women join her in Westeros, especially from notable houses like the Starks, that does lend her an air of legitimacy (on top of the presence of her dragons). It would also show to the other former rebels (Tullys, Arryns,...) that Dany is not mad like her father and willing to restore the peace if the houses kneel to her. Specifically for Sansa, it also means a tie to the north.

And the wife he wants is Tysha. Unless we get confirmation that she is dead, in which case he might take Sansa as a consolation prize, he won't give up on her. It's why his catch praise in ADWD was "Where do whores go?" and not "Where did Sansa go?"

Ironically, Tysha wasn't actually a whore, so the phrase is meaningless.

It would seem very unlikely to me that Tyrion would find Tysha, and even more so if she would want to be within a 100 leagues of him or any Lannister if she survived what was done to her. I don't think Martin is going there. Tysha's fate may remain unresolved.

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Ironically, Tysha wasn't actually a whore, so the phrase is meaningless.

It would seem very unlikely to me that Tyrion would find Tysha, and even more so if she would want to be within a 100 leagues of him or any Lannister if she survived what was done to her. I don't think Martin is going there. Tysha's fate may remain unresolved.

Martin said we would find out where whores go so I think Tysha's fate will be resolved even if they do never meet again, based on his answer here. It's been a while since I saw the interview but I think it's toward the end.

https://youtu.be/pi48wzKh-wo?t=17m53s

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I disagree...

So KL is going to become irrelevant and it can be argued Sandor is alive, yeah ok. Who sits the throne, or more that they believe that the Others are coming and prepare the defence of the realm is all that's going to matter, the Others are not going to be stopped by a handful of NW, some wildlings or even the North, this story is about the whole of the realm putting aside their differences and joining in common cause for survival. Sandor is as alive as Sansa.

Now that you remind us of Bran's dream from AGOT, besides the man armoured like the sun and the one with the face of the Hound, the Mountain was also mentioned (with nothing but thick, black blood behind his visor). I would guess Cersei is going to send UnGregor against Sansa at some point, and Sandor and/or Jaime may play a part in stopping it. Curious that there is no hint of Brienne in the dream.

That's because when GRRM wrote that vision Brienne almost certainly didn't exist as a character. There's no reference to Brienne, foreshadowing or otherwise in AGOT. Now consider what the character is, Jaime pre corruption, her "Sword" moment being Jaime's Aerys moment. Now consider what she's doing, running around looking for Sansa to protect, on Jaime's behalf, what GRRM most likely envisioned Jaime would be doing. Jaime's arc got too dense, didn't fit, GRRM couldn't have him both becoming Tywin Lannister and out searching for his honour (Sansa), so he created Brienne to carry that portion. See how the two characters boomerang. Also, besides Sansa, they both seem the characters being seeded for the Sandor return, Brienne straight up knows it wasn't Sandor at the Saltpans and Jaime is given the Saltpans story but from his POV it doesn't sound right to him, doesn't sound like Sandor.

Cersei isn't going to send Ungregor after Sansa, they'll all be in KL.

Interesting thought, I hadn't yet thought of Tyrion in that way. I have long considered the possibility that the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa will actually go forward in the end (and tie Sansa to the south, in the end, quite possibly as queen of the seven kingdom's), but I always saw this as something that would be more or less forced on Sansa for political reasons. I had not considered that Sansa could use her ties to Tyrion willingly, to manipulate him, and by extension the restored Targaryen regime.

Tyrion stays married to her because he's yearning for her love, she stays married to him because he's the marriage she must endure for power. Tyrion is her backdoor to power, control Tyrion, control the realm, Lady Lannister Joanna and Tywin and to a lesser extent tall, noble blue eyed Alysanne and well travelled Jaehaerys the great builder of drains.

It would seem very unlikely to me that Tyrion would find Tysha, and even more so if she would want to be within a 100 leagues of him or any Lannister if she survived what was done to her. I don't think Martin is going there. Tysha's fate may remain unresolved.

What position do you see Tyrion playing, HOTK? What was Tywin's lesson? That Tysha was too lowborn, that Tyrion can't just go marrying whoever he pleases, he's a Lannister. Suppose Tysha does come into play, what is Tyrion going to give up? The wife he apparently loves, or his position of power? Because no powerful character is going to be bringing a Tysha to court as his wife.

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Ironically, Tysha wasn't actually a whore, so the phrase is meaningless.

It would seem very unlikely to me that Tyrion would find Tysha, and even more so if she would want to be within a 100 leagues of him or any Lannister if she survived what was done to her. I don't think Martin is going there. Tysha's fate may remain unresolved.

Obviously? Of course he knew Tysha wasn't a whore, he used that phrase in ADWD already knowing she was innocent after Jaime's confession. Doesn't mean he didn't use it. All it does is reinforce over and over and over and over again how obsessed Tyrion is with finding her.

As Ser Pounce FTW said, it has already been confirmed that we will learn "where whores go."

So KL is going to become irrelevant and it can be argued Sandor is alive, yeah ok. Who sits the throne, or more that they believe that the Others are coming and prepare the defence of the realm is all that's going to matter, the Others are not going to be stopped by a handful of NW, some wildlings or even the North, this story is about the whole of the realm putting aside their differences and joining in common cause for survival.

Tyrion stays married to her because he's yearning for her love, she stays married to him because he's the marriage she must endure for power. Tyrion is her backdoor to power, control Tyrion, control the realm, Lady Lannister Joanna and Tywin and to a lesser extent tall, noble blue eyed Alysanne and well travelled Jaehaerys the great builder of drains.

So only the person who sits the IT can defend the realm from the Others? I guess Stannis should just leave and we should get Tommen up there on his pony.

Tyrion isn't yearning for her love anymore. Tyrion isn't the same character he was when they married. I don't see how you can say you want them to remain married without addressing him being a rapist who admitted to enjoying forcing himself on a woman who looked at him in disgust and who has yet to have any power in Dany's Court. If you accept he will be her Hand based on the show, you also have to concede that Sansa may be going North (since that is where the show has placed her and is continuing to send her farther north to find her brothers after Theon's reveal).

Edited by AllOfTheHours

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That's because when GRRM wrote that vision Brienne almost certainly didn't exist as a character. There's no reference to Brienne, foreshadowing or otherwise in AGOT.

That does seem likely.

Cersei isn't going to send Ungregor after Sansa, they'll all be in KL.

If Sansa is not marked as a target, I doubt she would get involved in a fight against him. She is neither a fighter nor a magician (unless her dormant warg powers would play a role) and she doesn't have a dragon or wildfire, nor does she have special insights into what Ungregor would be. If she is a target, Sandor and Jaime (with Brienne) would have a mutual reason to destroy Ungregor.

I also don't see Sansa going to KL while Cersei still has some power there, unless she is taken by force.

Suppose Tysha does come into play, what is Tyrion going to give up? The wife he apparently loves, or his position of power? Because no powerful character is going to be bringing a Tysha to court as his wife.

Considering the way they parted, I'd guess Tysha would want to kill him so the question would be moot. If she somehow would still want him, I don't know what would happen though he is so obsessed with her he just might stay with her.

I wonder, what would Tyrion say to Tysha if his wish comes true and he finds her? Would he apologise, say he was lied to?

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I don't see how you can say you want them to remain married without addressing him being a rapist who admitted to enjoying forcing himself on a woman who looked at him in disgust and who has yet to have any power in Dany's Court.

What Chrisdaw or I want is not important; the question is what Martin wants to write. I consider it a possibility that the marriage is meant to become more than a farce in the end, the books have emphasized the finality and the difficulty in breaking it.

The septon raised his crystal high, so the rainbow light fell down upon them. "Here in the sight of gods and men," he said, "I do solemnly proclaim Tyrion of House Lannister and Sansa of House Stark to be man and wife, one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever, and cursed be the one who comes between them."

I do think LF is "cursed", in books and show. And I doubt that any of the other engagements or marriages in books or show (Harry, Sweetrobin, Ramsay) will bear fruit.

And as Chrisdaw wrote, a powerful Tyrion is likely to want a highborn wife. None of those will volunteer to marry him, but since he is already married, if he finds Sansa he just might want to keep her to her vows, even though he knows those were said against her will.

As for the rape, there were no witnesses and Tyrion will presumably not brag about it in Dany's hearing, so while it infuences what we think about the character, it will likely not impact Tyrion unless he himself would feel remorse about it. It is interesting that the show has whitewashed Tyrion to some extent, both in his relationship to Sansa and in limiting his post-KL depression to drinking rather than the things he did in the books.

If you accept he will be her Hand based on the show, you also have to concede that Sansa may be going North (since that is where the show has placed her and is continuing to send her farther north to find her brothers after Theon's reveal).

That Tyrion will rise high in Dany's council has been theorised by fans since long before S5 of the show. The show accelerated things, but in the books this will probably happen by the end of TWOW or early in the book thereafter. Sansa in the north though, for the time being can be seen as merely the replacement of her book storyline in the Vale, which D&D weren't interested in filming. There is still room for deviation between show and book, and it remains to be seen if it will be a case of show-Sansa moving back south in S6 or S7 or book-Sansa moving north in TWOW or early in the book thereafter.

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If Sansa is not marked as a target, I doubt she would get involved in a fight against him. She is neither a fighter nor a magician (unless her dormant warg powers would play a role) and she doesn't have a dragon or wildfire, nor does she have special insights into what Ungregor would be. If she is a target, Sandor and Jaime (with Brienne) would have a mutual reason to destroy Ungregor.

I also don't see Sansa going to KL while Cersei still has some power there, unless she is taken by force.

A trial for the murder of Joff.

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A trial for the murder of Joff.

That would only be possible if Sansa gets abducted from the Vale (by Shadrich?) or is delivered by Vale Lords,

but both of those seem unlikely to me. It would be very hard to pull off an abduction (Shadrich on his own will not be able to call on many resources, and the passes out of the Vale are blocked) and few lords in the Vale would be willing to do Cersei a favour.

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A trial for the murder of Joff.

Sansa wouldn't be put on trial. She would be executed, pretty much immediately.

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What Chrisdaw or I want is not important; the question is what Martin wants to write. I consider it a possibility that the marriage is meant to become more than a farce in the end, the books have emphasized the finality and the difficulty in breaking it.

I do think LF is "cursed", in books and show. And I doubt that any of the other engagements or marriages in books or show (Harry, Sweetrobin, Ramsay) will bear fruit.

And as Chrisdaw wrote, a powerful Tyrion is likely to want a highborn wife. None of those will volunteer to marry him, but since he is already married, if he finds Sansa he just might want to keep her to her vows, even though he knows those were said against her will.

As for the rape, there were no witnesses and Tyrion will presumably not brag about it in Dany's hearing, so while it infuences what we think about the character, it will likely not impact Tyrion unless he himself would feel remorse about it. It is interesting that the show has whitewashed Tyrion to some extent, both in his relationship to Sansa and in limiting his post-KL depression to drinking rather than the things he did in the books.

That Tyrion will rise high in Dany's council has been theorised by fans since long before S5 of the show. The show accelerated things, but in the books this will probably happen by the end of TWOW or early in the book thereafter. Sansa in the north though, for the time being can be seen as merely the replacement of her book storyline in the Vale, which D&D weren't interested in filming. There is still room for deviation between show and book, and it remains to be seen if it will be a case of show-Sansa moving back south in S6 or S7 or book-Sansa moving north in TWOW or early in the book thereafter.

So, regardless of what pairings you want to happen, I don't see how you can argue for Tyrion/Sansa as a potentially positive development for Sansa (more political power and fun court life) and GRRM's endgame without dissecting and exploring who he has become. If you said Tyrion/Sansa will happen and they will both be more miserable then ever, I would agree that is definitely possible! But the idea that they will be partners in power like "Alysanne and Jaeharys" and that he will "yearn for her love", is something I disagree with. Not that is a bad opinion, it isn't, I just disagree.

The reason the rape is important isn't because I think someone will catch him and geld him, but because I believe if he was alone with Sansa he might try to rape her. And I don't see how they could have any semblance of a happy marriage if he rapes her. I also don't think he will help her secure power/prestige through him and I don't think she can manipulate him with her courtesies - he is too clever, too bitter, and too far gone.

The quotes for ADWD that show Tyrion's "change of heart" and new desire to have women who don't want him:

"No. I am done with women." Whores.

The girl took that disappointment too well for his liking. "If m'lord would prefer a boy, I can have one waiting in his bed."
M'lord would prefer his wife. M'lord would prefer a girl named Tysha. "Only if he knows where whores go."
The girl's mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.
"I believe I have changed my mind," he told her. "Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I'll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly." He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. "Do you moan when you are being fucked?" he asked the bedwarmer.

She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust.

He rolled off feeling more ashamed than sated. This was a mistake. What a wretched creature I've become. "Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?" he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. "Do you know where whores go?" She did not answer that one either. Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me.
He needed wine. A lot of wine. He seized the flagon with both hands and raised it to his lips. The wine ran red. Down his throat, down his chin. It dripped from his beard and soaked the feather bed. In the candlelight it looked as dark as the wine that had poisoned Joffrey. When he was done he tossed the empty flagon aside and half-rolled and half-staggered to the floor, groping for a chamber pot. There was none to be found. His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies.
The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. "Cut off my head and take it to King's Landing," Tyrion urged her. "My sister will make a lady of you, and no one will ever whip you again." She did not understand that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least.

So I suppose, I just want to know how these character development effect your understanding/belief in Tyrion/Sansa as a political team/potentially successful marriage.

I also don't see Sansa going to KL while Cersei still has some power there, unless she is taken by force.

:agree: I agree with this completely! I know I will sound redundant if I write this, but no one wants to take Sansa south in the story except Shadrich so he can collect on the bounty on her head. Sansa wants to go North. LF want her to go North (with HtH and an army from the Vale). Brienne wants to bring her to family (that means North). Jaime would bring her as far from KL as possible. Ned died wanting his daughters to go back North.

Could Shadrich bring her south again? I guess he could, yes. But I see her going north because that is where her power originates (with loyal vassal lords and her brothers) since if she is in the North being a Stark will protect her, anywhere else in the kingdom and being a Stark/Tyrion's wife/accused of regicide will be a one-way trip to the gallows. And the North is where all the major characters appear to be headed for the final conflicts.

Edited by AllOfTheHours

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That would only be possible if Sansa gets abducted from the Vale (by Shadrich?) or is delivered by Vale Lords,

but both of those seem unlikely to me. It would be very hard to pull off an abduction (Shadrich on his own will not be able to call on many resources, and the passes out of the Vale are blocked) and few lords in the Vale would be willing to do Cersei a favour.

No abduction, she goes to KL with Tyrion after the Vale wraps up. While Aegon and Dany Dance about KL she is at worst a highborn hostage, but Tyrion isn't likely to be an enemy of either so Sansa is likely just to be there decorating the halls, looking innocent, playing games. When Aegon is dead and Dany booted out it becomes a showdown for the throne, and prosecuting Sansa for Joff's death is a card Cersei has to play.

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No abduction, she goes to KL with Tyrion after the Vale wraps up. While Aegon and Dany Dance about KL she is at worst a highborn hostage, but Tyrion isn't likely to be an enemy of either so Sansa is likely just to be there decorating the halls, looking innocent, playing games. When Aegon is dead and Dany booted out it becomes a showdown for the throne, and prosecuting Sansa for Joff's death is a card Cersei has to play.

How would this serve Sansa's story at all? She's been placed in the Vale, a place where she can accumulate real political influence, and her story's orientation is northward.

And how, in this scenario, would Cersei ever be in a position to prosecute Sansa for Joffrey's death?

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What Chrisdaw or I want is not important; the question is what Martin wants to write. I consider it a possibility that the marriage is meant to become more than a farce in the end, the books have emphasized the finality and the difficulty in breaking it.

Have they, though? GRRM went to the trouble of setting out an annulment procedure, which seems like an odd thing to do unless that procedure was going to be used at some point. Also, Tywin warned Tyrion back in ASOS that an unconsummated marriage could be annulled by the High Septon, and Tyrion retorted that the High Septon was a trained seal who barked on command, something that's no longer true.

I do agree that the marriage would be very difficult to break now. It would be difficult to secure an annulment now, since Sansa can't request an annulment from the High Septon without revealing her location, as GRRM noted when asked about this, and she can't marry Harry the Heir until she either secures an annulment or Tyrion dies. That doesn't mean anything about the long-term prospects of the marriage, though; that just means that it will be difficult for Book Sansa to remarry at present, not that she'll never be able to get an annulment.

Also, in the show, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was pretty much handwaved; they changed the rules so that non-consummation voids a marriage to enable the Ramsay/Sansa marriage to happen in the show. Even though that was done to graft Sansa on to Jeyne's plot, I wonder if Littlefinger will handwave the marriage similarly in the books, maybe not by securing an annulment, but by faking Tyrion's death.

How would this serve Sansa's story at all? She's been placed in the Vale, a place where she can accumulate real political influence, and her story's orientation is northward.

Assumes facts not in evidence. You shouldn't make authoritative statements as to things you don't know; it's never a good look. Just because the Vale is a place where she can accumulate real political influence, doesn't mean that she necessarily will. Certainly, her track record to date in the books is not promising. Nor can we assume her story's orientation is northward; the TV Jeyne plotline could have been a mere stopover for her, and there's a decent argument that Sansa has unfinished business in KL.

Also, since you don't actually know what Sansa's story is, only your notion of what it is, you have no notion of what will or won't serve it. Instead of weighing in as if you're the expert as to what Sansa's story is or isn't and discounting theories out of hand on that basis--which you're hopelessly ill-qualified to do, seeing as how you're not GRRM--why don't you deal with the theories on their own merits? You might actually learn something. "X can't happen because it doesn't fit with my understanding of what the character's arc is" isn't an argument.

Edited by Newstar

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How would this serve Sansa's story at all? She's been placed in the Vale, a place where she can accumulate real political influence, and her story's orientation is northward.

And how, in this scenario, would Cersei ever be in a position to prosecute Sansa for Joffrey's death?

She's not going to be languishing in a dungeon in KL, putting her in KL puts her in the middle of the action with access to the factions of power as the Dance and aftermath bring chaos to the realm. Mobility is never so possible as under such circumstances, the only limit to her influence in this situation is the limit of her ability to plan and manipulate. And, soon the three most powerful people in the realm will be the three dragon riders, she's married to one.

After people power throws Dany off the IT it will fall to the Faith to put the realm back to rights, Cersei's children would have to be the front runner for the crown unless someone else emerges, in which case a PR battle will ensue. Cersei won't have the power to trial Sansa, but the Faith will, Cersei just has to put the fairly reasonable looking allegation to the Faith and they'll trial her because that would be the reasonable thing to do.

Also, in the show, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was pretty much handwaved; they changed the rules so that non-consummation voids a marriage to enable the Ramsay/Sansa marriage to happen in the show. Even though that was done to graft Sansa on to Jeyne's plot, I wonder if Littlefinger will handwave the marriage similarly in the books, maybe not by securing an annulment, but by faking Tyrion's death.

Sure, but when Tyrion comes back all bets are off. When the dust settles and the realm has time to draw breath, there may be a HS willing to annul their marriage, the question I would ask is by then will they both want to? Or by then have they both come to understand the marriage serves their purposes. Annulment provides the opportunity for both characters to stay married by choice.

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Sure, but when Tyrion comes back all bets are off. When the dust settles and the realm has time to draw breath, there may be a HS willing to annul their marriage, the question I would ask is by then will they both want to? Or by then have they both come to understand the marriage serves their purposes. Annulment provides the opportunity for both characters to stay married by choice.

I cannot imagine a scenario where Sansa would choose to remain married to Tyrion. Even if we assume she would choose to remain married to someone she found physically repulsive--and it's not like ADWD Tyrion's personality is all that great, either--for purely political or material reasons, what does he have to offer her? He's a universally reviled kinslayer, kingslayer, and attainted traitor. He's so hated that people are writing plays starring him as the villain in Essos. Moreover, the Lannister name is officially mud, and all her allies--Tullys, Arryns, Starks, etc.--would want nothing to do with any of the Lannisters. By aligning herself with him, she'd be turning her back on the allies she needed most and spitting in the face of those able to provide her with real support and backing (men, resources, etc.). It's not just that he repulses her; he's absolutely useless to her. Even assuming that Sansa adopts a coolly pragmatic view of marriage, Tyrion has nothing to recommend himself as a husband. Even if she could overcome her hatred of the Lannisters, House Lannister is in freefall; why would she choose to get dragged down with them?

As for Tyrion, I do think he is bitter, angry and resentful towards Sansa, and my impression in ADWD is that he doesn't want anything to do with her. I don't know that he would go out of his way to get revenge on her--although he might seize the opportunity if presented with it--but I can't see him ever lifting a finger to help her. Even if a continuation of their marriage would be in some way helpful to Sansa and she sought that continuation, I am certain that absent some change of heart, he would withhold anything that might be useful to her just to spite her.

...On the other hand, the relationship is weirdly shippy in the show, so who knows? *Kanye shrug*

Edited by Newstar

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We'll see, the realm will look different and have different priorities after the Dance, there's no story if nothing changes. Those same arguments could be used against Tyrion accumulating any power, and yet he's to be snarling in the middle.


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No abduction, she goes to KL with Tyrion after the Vale wraps up. While Aegon and Dany Dance about KL she is at worst a highborn hostage, but Tyrion isn't likely to be an enemy of either so Sansa is likely just to be there decorating the halls, looking innocent, playing games. When Aegon is dead and Dany booted out it becomes a showdown for the throne, and prosecuting Sansa for Joff's death is a card Cersei has to play.

I am really not following the evidence behind this theory. How would these events occur? Why would all the characters involved dramatically change their stated goals to accomplish them?

So first, Tyrion swings by the Vale picks up his wife and she goes to KL with him by choice? She gives up on her main desire for the past three books she's been in ie. to get home to the North? To go to KL and "decorating the halls, looking innocent, playing games." I'm not sure how he would stumble upon her so they could go to KL together. And why he would want her, remember he blames her for his arrest/almost execution. Or why Sansa would want him and chose to sit around KL playing games and looking innocent?

How do we know when/how Aegon or Cersei will die? Or when they may or may not have power? I have seen dozens and dozens of theories on this, what makes yours accurate?

She's not going to be languishing in a dungeon in KL, putting her in KL puts her in the middle of the action with access to the factions of power as the Dance and aftermath bring chaos to the realm. Mobility is never so possible as under such circumstances, the only limit to her influence in this situation is the limit of her ability to plan and manipulate. And, soon the three most powerful people in the realm will be the three dragon riders, she's married to one.

After people power throws Dany off the IT it will fall to the Faith to put the realm back to rights, Cersei's children would have to be the front runner for the crown unless someone else emerges, in which case a PR battle will ensue. Cersei won't have the power to trial Sansa, but the Faith will, Cersei just has to put the fairly reasonable looking allegation to the Faith and they'll trial her because that would be the reasonable thing to do.

Sure, but when Tyrion comes back all bets are off. When the dust settles and the realm has time to draw breath, there may be a HS willing to annul their marriage, the question I would ask is by then will they both want to? Or by then have they both come to understand the marriage serves their purposes. Annulment provides the opportunity for both characters to stay married by choice.

How do you know she's not in a dungeon? She already has a track record of sneaking out of the Red Keep once. I see no reason why anyone (Cersei, Dany, even Tyrion) would want her roaming the castle on her own accord and risk her escaping again.

The thing limiting her influence is the fact that she has no power. This is like ACoK and ASoS all over again. She trapped in KL, married to Tyrion, and she doesn't have any of her own (loyal Northern) soldiers around her to enforce her will. Remember what happened to Ned? Being HotK/wife of tHoTK doesn't guarantee anything, even if it were possible for Tyrion and Sansa.

Sorry, but I think you mean if Tyrion is a dragonrider.

How do we know Dany will be overthrown by the people? Before or after her fight with the Others? Why? And why would the Faith ever take Tommen and Myrcella's side (if they're even still alive)? They have been trying to prove they are bastards/Cersei is a whore for ages now.

So, I think this theory needs some support/evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's based on assumptions that other assumptions are built on top of and more assumptions are put on top of those. I don't see why Sansa would chose to go anywhere with Tyrion. Nor do I see why she would chose to go to KL, especially now when she has finally escaped and has a plan to go North.

Edited by AllOfTheHours

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Assumes facts not in evidence. You shouldn't make authoritative statements as to things you don't know; it's never a good look. Just because the Vale is a place where she can accumulate real political influence, doesn't mean that she necessarily will. Certainly, her track record to date in the books is not promising. Nor can we assume her story's orientation is northward; the TV Jeyne plotline could have been a mere stopover for her, and there's a decent argument that Sansa has unfinished business in KL.

Also, since you don't actually know what Sansa's story is, only your notion of what it is, you have no notion of what will or won't serve it. Instead of weighing in as if you're the expert as to what Sansa's story is or isn't and discounting theories out of hand on that basis--which you're hopelessly ill-qualified to do, seeing as how you're not GRRM--why don't you deal with the theories on their own merits? You might actually learn something. "X can't happen because it doesn't fit with my understanding of what the character's arc is" isn't an argument.

I don't want to speak for Colonel Green, because I don't know what he is thinking. But that is the tone most of the other posters have been taking for the past couple of pages, ie. that they know what will happen, what GRRM will write, and how Sansa's story will go. So, I don't think it's fair to single him out like this for his phrasing and not anyone else.

Edited by AllOfTheHours

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I started with references to large swathes of character arc in the established text, some of the biggest most blatant passages of foreshadowing and some major themes as it made sense then, but it's become a narrow window of off-topic predictions that I don't think belong here. There are other topics for that sort of thing, including my own in this forum not far off the front page that answers most of the above.


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I started with references to large swathes of character arc in the established text, some of the biggest most blatant passages of foreshadowing and some major themes as it made sense then, but it's become a narrow window of off-topic predictions that I don't think belong here. There are other topics for that sort of thing, including my own in this forum not far off the front page that answers most of the above.

You do realize, that your response just validates what I was trying to say? "Large swathes of character arc," "biggest most blatant passages of foreshadowing " and "major themes" are subjective (based on your interpretation) not objective and can't be used to claim what will or won't happen. Unless you are GRRM, you can't know what the character arcs, foreshadowing, and major themes are. Although you are at perfect liberty to argue for what you believe, it's still just an opinion. Especially when you're extrapolating detailed sequences of events and predicting characters' future choices (which directly contradict their current choices) using "character arc" and "major themes" without providing any direct quotes from any of the 5 books as support.

I am actually interested in your argument (which is why we've been going back and forth for three pages), but until you provide quotes from the text or respond the questions/textual quotes myself and others have put forward to counter your claims, I really don't see how we can have a discussion over the text.

But I do agree that this has gotten tedious.

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