[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Whitering]

Boy, people are being critical, Sansa doesn't know what she wants right now, so she's following LF's plan, which on paper puts her as Lady of the Vale, Queen of the North and probably the Riverlands as well.

 

What makes you think Sansa doesn't want that? I've read the same chapters you have, she doesn't want Robert to die, but in any case, it seems likely to happen, that's the only contrary thought she has.

[LongRider]

Boy, people are being critical, Sansa doesn't know what she wants right now, so she's following LF's plan, which on paper puts her as Lady of the Vale, Queen of the North and probably the Riverlands as well.

 

What makes you think Sansa doesn't want that? I've read the same chapters you have, she doesn't want Robert to die, but in any case, it seems likely to happen, that's the only contrary thought she has.

 

Sansa is not "Lady of the Vale, Queen of the North and probably the Riverlands as well" She is 'Alayne, bastard daughter of P Baelish Lord Protector of the Vale.'  Because of him, Alayne the bastard can be called 'Lady' and that's it. 

 

There is no Lady of the Vale, there hasn't been and still isn't a 'Queen of the North' in the story, the North bent the knee long ago and kings and queens of the North are a thing of the past.  She has nothing to do with the Riverlands.

 

She wants to go home to Winterfell and be the Lady there. 

[Aleenys]

Well, I do agree the situation with SweetRobin is curious. I don't agree she's a robot doing what she's told, though. We have her PoV remember? That's similar to saying Arya is a robot because she only cares about her list of revenge and carries them out without thinking of the consequences, or pondering on them other than the fact they deserve to die.

 

Sansa's one characteristic that she didn't get rid of is her tendency to ignore or twist the facts into something more bearable, and I say that as quite a Sansa fan. Petyr told her SweetRobin is expected to die with an arched eyebrow, before that the Maester told her of the dangers of sweetsleep, but Sansa didn't mull on it at all. Even in the sample chapter it doesn't occur to her that LF may be slowly killing him, or if she does subconsciously she's doing her best to ignore it from her consciousness. She goes on to think when SR marries his wife will love his hair, that much is certain, as if what she is currently doing doesn't depend on his death. It is very curious.

 

The other one is Lysa's ramblings before she is thrown off the Moon Door that Petyr has her convinced was exactly what they were, ramblings. She doesn't want to believe Lysa might be right about Petyr, her protector, so she chooses to ignore what Lysa said. She's very conflicted. On some level of her consciousness she refuses to acknowledge Petyr might be that horrible person that brought Westeros to ruin, so it is safer not to believe Lysa and not question it anymore.

 

She did that a lot more in the first book to absurd levels that got lots of people in the fandom to hate her. Despite the signs, she desperately wanted her prince to be one from the stories and the queen to be the beautiful lady, she made a mistake that she regretted very much. She was also of course a child, and her idealism was at a blinding level because of her sheltered naivety. 

 

So what I'm saying is, either this lack of reflection in her chapters in these matters is very deliberate and pointing towards a climactic reveal, when she truly processes them and her actions regarding them will surprise the readers very much, either in a bad or a good way, or she will not ponder on them until it is too late and who knows what will happen then. No one expects any of the characters in TWoW to have a smooth ride the whole book.

[LongRider]

^^^^ I have high hopes that the tourney will cause all kinds of 'turbulence' in the Vale, and hopefully give LF lots of heartburn that he wasn't expecting.    :uhoh:

[Aleenys]

Oh yeah, shit is about to go down in that tourney.  ^_^  Too many wild cards to ignore, too many factors that can disturb it and cause a game changer for LF's plans.

[chrisdaw]

Boy, people are being critical, Sansa doesn't know what she wants right now, so she's following LF's plan, which on paper puts her as Lady of the Vale, Queen of the North and probably the Riverlands as well.

 

What makes you think Sansa doesn't want that? I've read the same chapters you have, she doesn't want Robert to die, but in any case, it seems likely to happen, that's the only contrary thought she has.

Because what Sansa wants is a major stumbling block in her arc, that she has decided it offscreen between chapters simply because she is doing as LF says (as she's done the whole time since being in his care) is nonsense. She sits down and creates what she wants, WF as it was before the giant came, filled with family and people she loved and people who loved her, WF as it can never be again. Beyond that there is no real determination, there's only ideas planted by LF for which emotionally there is mostly no acknowledgment or at best an apathetic acceptance, and Sandor constantly popping up without invitation. GRRM has been drumming into us that Sansa's original mode of operation is to consider and attempt to satisfy what the other wants first and foremost, rarely does she do otherwise. That Arya doesn't do the same fries her brain.

 

That only contrary thought is pretty fucking important. She doesn't want SR dead, she's going along with the plan because that's what she does and she hasn't thought about it, that's why her thoughts and actions conflict. Her protection of SR is instinctive, motherly, she doesn't really realise she's doing it, or that wooing Harry is going to collide with it. Sansa doesn't want Harry, Sansa isn't happy in the Vale, Alayne wants Harry and Alayne is happy in the Vale. Sansa hasn't acknowledged it yet (bit of a trend), but Sansa wants Sandor.

 

The biggest issue here is Sansa fans. In their minds it's obvious what Sansa wants, Sansa wants what they want. They also see things in for and against for Sansa, so you end up with posts implying judgement where there is none. Apparently I'm being harsh on her, overly critical, not understanding she's a child, etc, when I've offered no actual judgement.

[Le Cygne]

That only contrary thought is pretty fucking important. She doesn't want SR dead, she's going along with the plan because that's what she does and she hasn't thought about it, that's why her thoughts and actions conflict. Her protection of SR is instinctive, motherly, she doesn't really realise she's doing it, or that wooing Harry is going to collide with it. Sansa doesn't want Harry, Sansa isn't happy in the Vale, Alayne wants Harry and Alayne is happy in the Vale. Sansa hasn't acknowledged it yet (bit of a trend), but Sansa wants Sandor.

I agree again, she's in far more danger than she knows, she's trying to work things out, but it hasn't all come together yet. Sandor is very important to her, her story with him is helping her work those things out.

And there are signs of him throughout the chapter. She literally runs into one (Harry the Arse!), bumps into another (he "catches her before she could fall"), dances with yet another (he mocks the knights and she laughs).

There's jousting that's more than jousting, wanting Harry to fall at the tourney after she "gasped" when Sandor ("the champion at her father's tourney") almost fell, a Kingsguard like the one who kept her safe ("I could keep you safe") for Sweetrobin...

Sweetrobin, with the long pretty hair, who she kissed when she pretended to kiss Sandor. Sweetrobin, who loves her and needs her help, soon it will be too late.

She's in the wrong place, doing the wrong things, but it's not too late... yet. That's what I think he's building up to, in a chapter where nothing was what it seems.

From Red Wedding hints, with Robb and a Spicer, to the same line Jeyne said when she met Ramsay, when she met Harry. "He knows who I am, " and neither were happy to see them.

But the last line, there was "promise" there... Edited August 27, 2015 by Le Cygne

[LongRider]

I disagree that towards Sweet Robin, Sansa's is only instinctive, motherly and she doesn't know she's doing it.  Young Robert Aryn is one of three of Sansa's known to be living kin.  Robert, with her in the Vale, Edmure in captivity somewhere and Jon at the Wall.  The Blackfish is MIA and it's not currently known if he's dead or alive.  Don't discount this.  Yes, SR as her cousin hasn't been able to come to the fore, because she's posing as Alayne, but he's her kin just the same.  SW doesn't know this, but she does. 

 

What's also interesting in this chapter are the subtle and not so subtle digs and small glimpses of distrust towards LF.  Plus, he's slipping a bit.  He doesn't meet the Waynwoods at the Gate, instead he's down in the vaults trying to convince two men, who didn't sound fully convinced to me, to hoard grain. 

 

Had someone been in his office?  If he has such important documents in his solar that needed privacy, why didn't he lock it? What news was brought on a lathered horse?  What is it with Corbray?  Is he or is he not LF's trusted man?  His excessive gift giving is noticed and Lady Westwood's snarky comment about Lord Nestor and his 'little finger' shows us that. 

 

Small as the cracks maybe, I do think they are really there.  Will the tourney bust them wide open?  I hope so.

[Whitering]

 

 

The biggest issue here is Sansa fans. In their minds it's obvious what Sansa wants, Sansa wants what they want. They also see things in for and against for Sansa, so you end up with posts implying judgement where there is none. Apparently I'm being harsh on her, overly critical, not understanding she's a child, etc, when I've offered no actual judgement.

I won't ask you to look at all my posts, suffice to say, I am not a Sansa fan...I have enjoyed her chapters since the Purple Wedding, but Sansa has not been clear on what she desires yet, and don't forget, she is mirroring Arya's chapters and Arya also doesn't know what she wants, we have had fun speculating on when she might find something that prompts her to move, and Alayne is in the same situation.

[Colonel Green]

Small as the cracks maybe, I do think they are really there.  Will the tourney bust them wide open?  I hope so.

I think people are really getting ahead of themselves if they think Littlefinger's plans are going to get suddenly derailed.  We're at the very start of "Act 2", the point where we would have resumed post-ASOS if there hadn't been a five-year gap (or something akin to that); Littlefinger's star will continue to rise for a good while yet, in all likelihood.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

SanSan is disgusting.

Bye.

[LongRider]

I think people are really getting ahead of themselves if they think Littlefinger's plans are going to get suddenly derailed.  We're at the very start of "Act 2", the point where we would have resumed post-ASOS if there hadn't been a five-year gap (or something akin to that); Littlefinger's star will continue to rise for a good while yet, in all likelihood.

 

Maybe, maybe not.  GRRM tourneys can be full of surprises and not all in the Vale trust LF. 

[Aleenys]

Well... Shadrich is in the Vale already. Do people think it's a giant red herring and it won't lead into any disturbance? I'm not saying he'll successfully kidnap Sansa, but it may lead to her identity being revealed to the Vale Lords and either way it's a huge trouble for LF.

 

If it all goes swell the way he expects, SR will have died, Sansa will have married Harry and what then? Still no sight of his endgame, he definitely does not expect the marriage to last that long if he wants Sansa for himself and his actions regarding that will take place within the last two books. So I'm not too worried, I'm highly expecting things to go wrong for LF towards the end of the book. Worse case scenario, the last one, but I prefer this one. :P

 

ETA: Also, his plans depend on a lot of assumptions. Sansa can't officially marry Harry until Tyrion is dead, and from his absurdly carefree manner he expects Tyrion to die soon somehow, either depending on Cersei's headhunters or something else. So yeah, too many factors that can go wrong, yet again. If he's a truly brilliant schemer, he will pull it off but until I see it I have so many signs to ignore.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Aleenys

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

 

ETA: Also, his plans depend on a lot of assumptions. Sansa can't officially marry Harry until Tyrion is dead, and from his absurdly carefree manner he expects Tyrion to die soon somehow, either depending on Cersei's headhunters or something else. So yeah, too many factors that can go wrong, yet again. If he's a truly brilliant schemer, he will pull it off but until I see it I have so many signs to ignore.

 

A couple of things I like to keep in mind.  First, this tourney is a big deal in the Vale, after all, it's purpose is to select knights for the guard of the Lord of the Vale, Robert Arryn.  People have come from all parts of the Vale to attend, but who's not there?  Bronze Yohn Royce, and I think that's more important than LF is letting on.

 

Also, LF doesn't share with Sansa all of his plans or difficulties.  So what his true plans are in my view, hidden, and he may possibly be on more shaky ground than he lets on to Sansa.  LF is a liar, and always a liar.

[Le Cygne]

Maybe, maybe not.  GRRM tourneys can be full of surprises and not all in the Vale trust LF. 

 

Yeah, there's definitely a game changer ahead with the tourney. And just because Sansa breaks free of LF, that doesn't mean LF's story is over. The story is too static, something's got to give, and there's a lot of tension in that last chapter.

[chrisdaw]

LF's primary role is that of Sansa's tutor, and that's nearly done, but there's a chance he sticks around to clash wills with the Spider.

 

Harry or LF are going to die at the Gates and civil war is going to erupt in the Vale, the carefully crafted hostility between the Royces and all the other little moving pieces are not for nothing. Harry and Sansa aren't going to marry and it all get left behind. Nestor and LF hold all the cards and defensive position at the Gates, Yohn has all the men and backing and when Harry or LF dies all the righteous reasoning to come collect.

[LongRider]

LF's primary role is that of Sansa's tutor, and that's nearly done, but there's a chance he sticks around to clash wills with the Spider.

 

Harry or LF are going to die at the Gates and civil war is going to erupt in the Vale, the carefully crafted hostility between the Royces and all the other little moving pieces are not for nothing. Harry and Sansa aren't going to marry and it all get left behind. Nestor and LF hold all the cards and defensive position at the Gates, Yohn has all the men and backing and when Harry or LF dies all the righteous reasoning to come collect.

 

This pure speculation only.

[Colonel Green]

ETA: Also, his plans depend on a lot of assumptions. Sansa can't officially marry Harry until Tyrion is dead, and from his absurdly carefree manner he expects Tyrion to die soon somehow, either depending on Cersei's headhunters or something else. So yeah, too many factors that can go wrong, yet again. If he's a truly brilliant schemer, he will pull it off but until I see it I have so many signs to ignore.

We don't really know what he has planned to deal with the marriage situation.  I assume he must have something more, since his plans depend on a marriage happening fairly quickly -- he just hasn't said what it is.

 

LF's primary role is that of Sansa's tutor, and that's nearly done, but there's a chance he sticks around to clash wills with the Spider.

He's not just her tutor, he's the main antagonist in her story, the man behind it all.  I don't expect him to be dispensed with any time soon.

[Aleenys]

We don't really know what he has planned to deal with the marriage situation.  I assume he must have something more, since his plans depend on a marriage happening fairly quickly -- he just hasn't said what it is.

 

There was that fake Tysha theory going on not too long ago, but it seems shaky to me. Sansa has to present herself for an annulment to happen and she's wanted for regicide. There has to be a major power shift in KL for even the possibility for that to happen, and as you said, he seems to want the wedding to happen soon from the urgency of things.

 

He's not just her tutor, he's the main antagonist in her story, the man behind it all.  I don't expect him to be dispensed with any time soon.

 

Agreed with that, but also Sansa is the main character in this story and the story has gone on too long with her as a pawn. Something has to happen in TWoW for this storyline to have a payoff, if this is believed to be the second last book. She has to contribute to the story in some way somehow, and I say this with the least Sansa bias as possible. :P Otherwise the point of her character is mystifying to me, George taking her through all this journey. The last book would be too little too late.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Aleenys

[chrisdaw]

He's not just her tutor, he's the main antagonist in her story, the man behind it all.  I don't expect him to be dispensed with any time soon.

True as far as any single character goes, but I don't think he's necessary to sustain her arc. He dies and there's the whole game out in front of Sansa, and Cersei to cast down.

GRRM gave Sansa the key to understanding what LF did when he had Lysa blabber in front of her, and he has created the scenario where to continue with LF Sansa has to let SR die. That to me is a none too transparent trigger (the contradiction between her thinking of SR's future while courting Harry is not subtle in this chapter), surely she has to get out from under him sooner rather than later or he should have been the POV.

He could be put to flight I suppose, and Sansa works it all out in his absence and then the Maid slays the giant when they cross paths sometime in the future.