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[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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On 3/26/2016 at 6:44 PM, bemused said:

Thanks, I'd forgotten that !  I haven't looked at the chapter for a while. ..I remembered mention of Andrew Tollett, and am still intrigued by his inclusion.

It is an interesting inclusion - particularly when Myranda has pointedly remarked in Feast that Ned Stark's bastard son has now been appointed Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and it was mentioned in the same book that Yohn Royce had encountered Sansa at Winterfell  when he escorted Ser Waymar to Castle Black (and met her again in King's Landing at the Hand's Tourney).  I am not sure how closely or distantly Dolorous Edd is related to the Andrew Tollett that Alayne dances with, but this further link to the Night's Watch has me even more convinced than before that her blurting out Jon's name could prove to be significant. 

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I don't know what is going to happen, but I do know that Ser Shadrich knows without a doubt that Alayne is really Sansa. I also don't believe he is who he says he is, due in large part to his very vague introduction to Brienne that seems to raise alot of questions. Also, as sigil crazy as GRRM is, the MM's sigil of the albino mouse on a field of brown and blue really makes me think, but whoever he is I don't really believe he is working for Varys. Brienne is a beast, a veritable warrior's warrior, and after meeting the Mad Mouse believes he is the real deal, not just some schmuck with a sword, but a bona fide threat. He immediately knows who Brienne is looking for, demonstrating his intellect and perception, and Brienne comments on his "easy arrogance that comes with skill at arms". While Sansa remarks to herself that she sees old battles in the scars beneath his ear and a hardness behind his eyes. I just can't see an intelligent and experienced warrior, especially one as small and quiet as a...ahem...mouse, just coming out and saying exactly who he is and who he is working for, so I think there is conspiracy at play with regards to the MM. Whether he is an agent of the BwB, a Riverlander loyal to the Tully's, or HR himself seeking out Sansa, I don't know, but there is definitely more than meets the eye with the MM. He has to be my absolute most favorite *minor* character introduced so far. Can't wait to see what's in store for Alayne/Sansa and the drama to unfold between her and the MM.

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7 hours ago, dornishdame said:

It is an interesting inclusion - particularly when Myranda has pointedly remarked in Feast that Ned Stark's bastard son has now been appointed Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and it was mentioned in the same book that Yohn Royce had encountered Sansa at Winterfell  when he escorted Ser Waymar to Castle Black (and met her again in King's Landing at the Hand's Tourney).  I am not sure how closely or distantly Dolorous Edd is related to the Andrew Tollett that Alayne dances with, but this further link to the Night's Watch has me even more convinced than before that her blurting out Jon's name could prove to be significant. 

Me, too. I don't think that will be missed by Miranda. She'll be checking the rumour mill for sure.

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7 hours ago, John Courage said:

I don't know what is going to happen, but I do know that Ser Shadrich knows without a doubt that Alayne is really Sansa. I also don't believe he is who he says he is, due in large part to his very vague introduction to Brienne that seems to raise alot of questions. Also, as sigil crazy as GRRM is, the MM's sigil of the albino mouse on a field of brown and blue really makes me think, but whoever he is I don't really believe he is working for Varys. Brienne is a beast, a veritable warrior's warrior, and after meeting the Mad Mouse believes he is the real deal, not just some schmuck with a sword, but a bona fide threat. He immediately knows who Brienne is looking for, demonstrating his intellect and perception, and Brienne comments on his "easy arrogance that comes with skill at arms". While Sansa remarks to herself that she sees old battles in the scars beneath his ear and a hardness behind his eyes. I just can't see an intelligent and experienced warrior, especially one as small and quiet as a...ahem...mouse, just coming out and saying exactly who he is and who he is working for, so I think there is conspiracy at play with regards to the MM. Whether he is an agent of the BwB, a Riverlander loyal to the Tully's, or HR himself seeking out Sansa, I don't know, but there is definitely more than meets the eye with the MM. He has to be my absolute most favorite *minor* character introduced so far. Can't wait to see what's in store for Alayne/Sansa and the drama to unfold between her and the MM.

I had always thought the idea of Mad Mouse actually working for Varys was too much on the nose and he still remains a mystery to me. I doubt he's working for Cersei either. My closest guess is the albino mouse on his shield has Old Gods references to it, such as weirwoods or Ghost's coloring, and I also lean towards Rat Cook references. This thread has more speculation on who he might actually be, and some make more sense than others.

Edited by Dya of Oldstones
typo

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4 hours ago, bemused said:

Me, too. I don't think that will be missed by Miranda. She'll be checking the rumour mill for sure.

It does concern me sometimes that Myranda is much more perceptive than Sansa realizes. She is careful, but I think not careful enough.  It wouldn't surprise me if - partly to test her theory and partly for spite - when Jon's stabbing becomes widely known in Westeros, Myranda shoves it in Sansa's face to get a reaction. This knowledge is also something that might push Sansa more into the persona of Alayne as Sansa loses yet another family member; I do worry about how much she is losing her identity as Sansa Stark and becoming Alayne Stone.  Alternatively, I am assuming that the marriage of Ramsay and 'Arya Stark' will become widely known soon.  Again, I think that is something Myranda might throw at her to get a reaction. 

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Robert Arryn is generally foreshadowed by and associated to characters ending or having lyn in their name. Mainly Alyns.

This tourney and the tourney of White Walls are going to share a lot in common. To kick off a general link.

Quote

Whitewalls was commonly called the Milkhouse by those who lived near it. Its walls and towers where made of white stone that had been quarried in the Vale. Its floors and pillars were crafted from white marble veined with gold.

Quote

 

"It almost looks as if it's made of snow."

Dunk turned. John the Fiddler stood behind him, smiling in his silk and cloth-of-gold. "what's made of snow?"

"The castle. All that white stone in the moonlight.

- Alyn Cockshaw attended the tournament at White Walls.

- Alyn loved Daemon II.

- Daemon took a fancy to Dunk.

- Motivated by jealousy of Daemon's attention to Dunk, Alyn paid Uthor Underleaf to remove his perceived rival.

- Uthor paid to have himself matched with Dunk in the tourney, the plan was to murder him in the joust, it would look like an accident.

I don't need to quote all the passages but it's apparent Sweetrobin rightly or wrongly does not like Harry, and for two reasons. The first is Harry has come to marry Sansa, in a sense to steal her from him, SR loves Sansa as much as a child could love an elder teenager. The second is Harry wants him to die to take his title.

Sweetrobin is the Alyn of this tourney. Harry is the Dunk. SR is going to hire someone to play the Uthor Underleaf part, someone to kill Harry in the tournament.

We need an Uthor. Lyn Corbray springs to mind instantly, the chapter shows he is deadly, in need of gold and pissed at LF. Harry dying at the tourney could well prove fatal to LF, it certainly ends his immediate plan. There are however also an extremely slimy Uther Schett in the chapter and a Mad Mouse looking to stumble on a bag of dragons. Uthor had a snail for a sigil and talks of leaving a slimy trail, he was paid with dragons for his service.

Uthor had expensive taste like Lyn and was all about that gold, dishonourably for sale like Corbray is, though Uthor was savvy with his spending while Lyn is loose and can't keep himself under control. It's specifically said Uthor is no true knight, which Corby certainly is not also.

So someone will be our Uthor, probably Corbray.

Despite Uthor hitting Dunk fair in the head Dunk survived, his head too thick. I don't think that's foreshadowing for Harry, Harry is going to get dead, TMK made it apparent Dunk survived because he's exceptional, any normal man would have died.

In TMK Uthor paid off the tourney master of games to fix the lists. The scene in LF's solar may harken to that, essentially LF has left his solar unattended, there's no mention of guards, papers laying about and a window is open, while there's more people about than the Gates has beds for. Maybe someone has even come in through and shuffled through his papers. Perhaps here we are pointing to someone fixing the lists under LF's guard.

When SR has Harry killed he will have fully fucked LF. And I think there's a little play going on here. The same things LF did, specially in KL, are not so much coming back to bite him, but are going to happen to him, to his detriment.

LF befriended and used the young coercable king to undermine everyone. I think someone is doing the same with Robert. 

Quote

“I hate that Harry,” Sweetrobin said when she was gone. “He calls me cousin, but he’s just waiting for me to die so he can take the Eyrie. He thinks I don’t know, but I do.”

This I don't believe SR has arrived at on his own. Leading into the chapter SR hasn't displayed this sort of suspicious mind before. And how would he know what Harry thinks? What would give him the impression Harry thinks anything? It's a fairly wide assumption. I think he is being lead down the path, someone is getting in under LF's guard and playing his pawn.

And LF of course paid an untrue knight to murder a knight of the Vale in a tourney.

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On 4/5/2016 at 0:58 AM, chrisdaw said:

Robert Arryn is generally foreshadowed by and associated to characters ending or having lyn in their name. Mainly Alyns.

This tourney and the tourney of White Walls are going to share a lot in common. To kick off a general link.

- Alyn Cockshaw attended the tournament at White Walls.

- Alyn loved Daemon II.

- Daemon took a fancy to Dunk.

- Motivated by jealousy of Daemon's attention to Dunk, Alyn paid Uthor Underleaf to remove his perceived rival.

- Uthor paid to have himself matched with Dunk in the tourney, the plan was to murder him in the joust, it would look like an accident.

I don't need to quote all the passages but it's apparent Sweetrobin rightly or wrongly does not like Harry, and for two reasons. The first is Harry has come to marry Sansa, in a sense to steal her from him, SR loves Sansa as much as a child could love an elder teenager. The second is Harry wants him to die to take his title.

Sweetrobin is the Alyn of this tourney. Harry is the Dunk. SR is going to hire someone to play the Uthor Underleaf part, someone to kill Harry in the tournament.

We need an Uthor. Lyn Corbray springs to mind instantly, the chapter shows he is deadly, in need of gold and pissed at LF. Harry dying at the tourney could well prove fatal to LF, it certainly ends his immediate plan. There are however also an extremely slimy Uther Schett in the chapter and a Mad Mouse looking to stumble on a bag of dragons. Uthor had a snail for a sigil and talks of leaving a slimy trail, he was paid with dragons for his service.

Uthor had expensive taste like Lyn and was all about that gold, dishonourably for sale like Corbray is, though Uthor was savvy with his spending while Lyn is loose and can't keep himself under control. It's specifically said Uthor is no true knight, which Corby certainly is not also.

So someone will be our Uthor, probably Corbray.

Despite Uthor hitting Dunk fair in the head Dunk survived, his head too thick. I don't think that's foreshadowing for Harry, Harry is going to get dead, TMK made it apparent Dunk survived because he's exceptional, any normal man would have died.

In TMK Uthor paid off the tourney master of games to fix the lists. The scene in LF's solar may harken to that, essentially LF has left his solar unattended, there's no mention of guards, papers laying about and a window is open, while there's more people about than the Gates has beds for. Maybe someone has even come in through and shuffled through his papers. Perhaps here we are pointing to someone fixing the lists under LF's guard.

When SR has Harry killed he will have fully fucked LF. And I think there's a little play going on here. The same things LF did, specially in KL, are not so much coming back to bite him, but are going to happen to him, to his detriment.

LF befriended and used the young coercable king to undermine everyone. I think someone is doing the same with Robert. 

This I don't believe SR has arrived at on his own. Leading into the chapter SR hasn't displayed this sort of suspicious mind before. And how would he know what Harry thinks? What would give him the impression Harry thinks anything? It's a fairly wide assumption. I think he is being lead down the path, someone is getting in under LF's guard and playing his pawn.

And LF of course paid an untrue knight to murder a knight of the Vale in a tourney.

Preston Jacobs thinks SweetRobin can warg birds or maybe his first cousin, Bran is reaching out to him as it also helps Sansa? Someone wants to bring down Littlefinger and Myranda Royce may be involved as it stops the marriage to Sansa and Harry (he has not agreed to it as of yet) and Myranda wants Harry for herself. Or, is Sansa, with all of this pretending, developing multiple personalities and is she the one who is filling SR's head with some facts. Sansa is an unreliable narrator which, given all that she has been through, is understandable.

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Could be Myranda feeding SR but it'd be very risky for her. If LF goes down in flames and she doesn't have a back up then her family lose the Gates. Killing Harry would't make sense from her as she obviously then can't marry him, if it's just pure jealousy then it'd be going too far bringing down her family too.

Maybe she is steering Robert to try and get him between Harry and Sansa, but without murderous intentions. It may be Robert goes and organises the hit on Harry without her knowing that side of things.

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12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Could be Myranda feeding SR but it'd be very risky for her. If LF goes down in flames and she doesn't have a back up then her family lose the Gates. Killing Harry would't make sense from her as she obviously then can't marry him, if it's just pure jealousy then it'd be going too far bringing down her family too.

Maybe she is steering Robert to try and get him between Harry and Sansa, but without murderous intentions. It may be Robert goes and organises the hit on Harry without her knowing that side of things.

I don't think there is any benefit in Sansa marrying Harry for LF.  IF Harry is just the heir than he has no power and neither does Sansa.  If Robert dies and Harry becomes the lord than LF looses all power in the Vale. 

If however Robert demands to marry Sansa in front of everyone to prevent her from marrying Harry, perhaps the other lords would not be able to protest the marriage like they would have if they thought LF was just forcibly marrying his bastard daughter off to the Lord of the Vale.  Perhaps LF himself is feeding Robert this information.

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 “The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can’t I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.”

     Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut.

 

Here is a good candidate for who is in SR's ear. This Benjicot is already feeding him information, maybe he gave him the rest.

The wiki calls Benjicot the Arryn fool, I don't know if that's just on the strength of Sansa's thought here or they have further information, there's no mention of a Benjicot the Arryn's fool (unless word search fails me) in the series before this sample chapter. It may be Benjicot is just a person Sansa thinks is a foolish person for having a loose tongue, but I'll assume the Wiki is right, it suits some ideas better that way.

One of LF's methods in KL, in addition to paying for a murder during a tourney and befriending the young king and planting thoughts in his mind, was to use a fool as a spy and go between, a messenger. If as I'm theorising LF's methods are set to occur against him, Benjicot undermining LF would slot in nicely.

Benjicot, I think, is a name associated with Brynden Tully (Benjicot Blackwood I think foreshadows the Blackfish). So perhaps Brynden is secretly in the Vale, pulling some strings, including Benjicot's.

Quote

At the doors to Lysa's apartments, they met her uncle storming out. "Going to join the fool's festival?" Ser Brynden snapped.

It's not much but it's something. And Brynden has a relationship with Petyr, Petyr apparently took his tears to Brynden as a youth in RR, so he likely knows about the whole Cat crush thing. And Brynden went with Lysa to the Vale, so it's likely he'd have seen how LF worked his way up under JA. So maybe when the Blackfish is working on a hunch that Petyr may have taken Sansa.

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On 7/4/2016 at 0:15 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't think there is any benefit in Sansa marrying Harry for LF.  IF Harry is just the heir than he has no power and neither does Sansa.  If Robert dies and Harry becomes the lord than LF looses all power in the Vale. 

If however Robert demands to marry Sansa in front of everyone to prevent her from marrying Harry, perhaps the other lords would not be able to protest the marriage like they would have if they thought LF was just forcibly marrying his bastard daughter off to the Lord of the Vale.  Perhaps LF himself is feeding Robert this information.

This sounds more like LF's natural twisted ploys than the marry-Harry plan he fed Sansa with. The only problem is Robert's health, and LF's lack of concern for Robert's survival. Also, wouldn't Robert know that it was LF who made the betrothal between Sansa and Harry?

Now, if Robert was LF and Lysa's son, it adds a different perspective, but LF can't put all his dreams of conquering Westeros on a sickly little boy who is getting dosed with sweetsleep. If LF makes sure Harry fall in love with Sansa, and then make her get married to Robert, Harry will want to marry her even after she is Robert's widow. So Harry would either be accused of Robert's death, or he would marry Sansa and this will help to retain LF's power in the Vale. LF is counting on Sansa to keep Harry under her control. This is again an unstable situation for LF, because Sansa could gradually become more loyal to Harry than to LF. Also, Harry is the dashing youth similar to Brandon who took away Cat from LF.  I doubt LF would let that happen again.

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On 9/1/2016 at 8:52 PM, Old Ida said:

I have one question about the Vale and the turney.  IF  Jamie shoes up is he not Warden of the West and is his power then stronger than the Protector ?  and he tell LF to go to Riverlands and do something there.  I am sorry this is short and not a theory but I have a broken arm now so hard to write,    someone has thougt about this and is ready to write smothing about it.

Cersei named Daven Lannister as Warden of West. As he is most likely to get killed in Red Wedding 2.0, he is not gonna tell LF anything. Jaime however, does expect LF to come down to Harrenhal and set things right. He says so to Ser Bonifer who is the current castellan of Harrenhal.

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On 15/05/2016 at 7:38 PM, Hos the Hostage said:

This sounds more like LF's natural twisted ploys than the marry-Harry plan he fed Sansa with. The only problem is Robert's health, and LF's lack of concern for Robert's survival. Also, wouldn't Robert know that it was LF who made the betrothal between Sansa and Harry?

Now, if Robert was LF and Lysa's son, it adds a different perspective, but LF can't put all his dreams of conquering Westeros on a sickly little boy who is getting dosed with sweetsleep. If LF makes sure Harry fall in love with Sansa, and then make her get married to Robert, Harry will want to marry her even after she is Robert's widow. So Harry would either be accused of Robert's death, or he would marry Sansa and this will help to retain LF's power in the Vale. LF is counting on Sansa to keep Harry under her control. This is again an unstable situation for LF, because Sansa could gradually become more loyal to Harry than to LF. Also, Harry is the dashing youth similar to Brandon who took away Cat from LF.  I doubt LF would let that happen again.

 

If like he announced to Sansa he reveals who she is at the wedding (except it's a surprise wedding with Robin) and make knights including Harry swear to help her reconquer the North it solves the problem.

Robin may die then, the Vale lords who have starkist tendancies would still support his widow (and have a new respect for LF for getting her out of KL), giving no option to Harry to change Vale policy. And Sansa wouldn't be forced to remarry Harry before a moment if she is in official mourning of Robin (letting time for Harry to die in the war, then LF himself can eventually marry Sansa)

Edited by Lord Freypie

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Ok, lots and lots of setup.

I think Sansa's days as Alayne are drawing to a close. There are too many holes in the story. There is the timing of Sansa's disappearance and Alayne's emergence, her being the right age, the fact that Lysa accepted her lover's bastard daughter into her household, he potential for people to ask around in Gulltown, LF fostered in Riverrun, the fact that the Vale was the most logical refuge for a fugitive Sansa and now she is at the Gates of the Moon where she can be observed freely. Hell, even LF could score points with many Vale lords for getting Ned's daughter out of the hands of the Lannisters.

In fact, it looks to me like the easiest way for LF to arrange the match between Harry and Sansa would be to tell Lady Waynwood who she is. I don't think that there is anything is this chapter to contradict the Waynwoods knowing, either indepently or through LF. Every Waynwood so far in the books has been unfailingly courteous to Sansa, perhaps more than her station justifies. There is also the fact that Bronze Yohn allowed Harry to come and he has actually met Sansa. And then there is the line about Harry knowing who she is. As to his behavior, he may have been hung up on the girl Saffron and not more keen on the idea of marriage than Sansa was herself. As a result he is balking. Then later when Lady Waynwood reminds him what claims Sansa's blood brings he changes his attitude.

Lyn Corbray has graduated from being LF's enemy to being his actual one. On one hand he's likely to continue doing what LF wanted him to do, but recompense and anyway doing a favor for Lyonel and probably that nameless merchant was more important and who was he going to tell anyway. I think that was LF's probable thinking. Lyn Corbray, however, has been repeatedly painted as a dangerous sociopath at the best of times, who is now frustrated, screwed and in need of cash. He's a loose cannon and he's probably going to do something really major.

Shadrich the mouse is another Chekhov's gun. There is nothing to suggest and no need for him to be anything other than what he appears to be, a hunter on the trail. As he was introduced with the other two hedge knights it doesn't appear unlikely that they are two like minded fellows he met on the way. What he is looking for is a payday. Taking her to King's Landing is logistically extremely difficult, not to mention dangerous. If there have been any news from King's Landing, they'll know that neither Varys nor the Queen are in a position to pay them for anything. There is however a person on site who would be willing to pay handsomely for Sansa. That would be LF himself who has not been shy about displaying his wealth. One way to go about it would be blackmail but that carries the near certainty of getting his throat slit. The best way to go about it would be an abduction but not to King's Landing but to ransom her back to LF. Now this is something loose cannon Corbray could get on board. In such a scenario they could head towards the mountains to avoid getting caught straight away. Which would be a way to reintroduce Timmet the Heir.

Other potential timebombs include Randa, Oswell whose three sons are probably being tortured right now and Lothor Brune who is increasingly trying to look more loyal to Sansa than to LF. On the big picture LF prospecting on food sounds is the big news of the chapter and highlights the Vale's future importance.

On a last note, I don't think it is necessary for LF to continue breathing for long. He has played his part many times over and causing chaos is going to be redundant from now on as there is more than enough of it. Killing him would be an efficient way to kick Sansa center stage in an environment that is both challenging and presents opportunities.

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On 7/4/2016 at 8:09 AM, The Sleeper said:

I think Sansa's days as Alayne are drawing to a close. There are too many holes in the story. There is the timing of Sansa's disappearance and Alayne's emergence, her being the right age, the fact that Lysa accepted her lover's bastard daughter into her household, he potential for people to ask around in Gulltown, LF fostered in Riverrun, the fact that the Vale was the most logical refuge for a fugitive Sansa and now she is at the Gates of the Moon where she can be observed freely. Hell, even LF could score points with many Vale lords for getting Ned's daughter out of the hands of the Lannisters.

It's worth remembering, this was originally supposed to pick up five years later.  For most people, Alayne would simply be an established fact by now.  I suspect that speculations about her origins would more likely focus on whether her mother was really a Braavosi gentlewoman.  Probably some people would imagine her to be of much lower birth.

Quote

In fact, it looks to me like the easiest way for LF to arrange the match between Harry and Sansa would be to tell Lady Waynwood who she is. I don't think that there is anything is this chapter to contradict the Waynwoods knowing, either indepently or through LF. Every Waynwood so far in the books has been unfailingly courteous to Sansa, perhaps more than her station justifies. There is also the fact that Bronze Yohn allowed Harry to come and he has actually met Sansa. And then there is the line about Harry knowing who she is. As to his behavior, he may have been hung up on the girl Saffron and not more keen on the idea of marriage than Sansa was herself. As a result he is balking. Then later when Lady Waynwood reminds him what claims Sansa's blood brings he changes his attitude.

Harry is very clearly painted as hungry for status (e.g., his shield crest, which would be virtually an affront to Lord Arryn by the normal rules of heraldry).  I very much doubt he'd be so hung up on Saffron as to be huffy with one of the most eligible noble maidens in Westeros; indeed, that sort of match would be the sort of thing he'd be desperate for.  Moreover, the amount of work Baelish put in to arrange the betrothal (buying up debts, etc.) would be unnecessary if he was just going to tell Waynwood his secret.

Quote

On a last note, I don't think it is necessary for LF to continue breathing for long. He has played his part many times over and causing chaos is going to be redundant from now on as there is more than enough of it. Killing him would be an efficient way to kick Sansa center stage in an environment that is both challenging and presents opportunities.

I really don't agree there.  The end of ASOS established him as one of the most important villains of the series, and we weren't originally supposed to see him again until five years later; I can't imagine he was ever meant to die almost immediately after such a reveal.

Edited by Colonel Green

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@Colonel Green  the five year gap was supposed to give the young characters time to age physically. It was never meant to materially alter the story.

57 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It's worth remembering, this was originally supposed to pick up five years later.  For most people, Alayne would simply be an established fact by now.  I suspect that speculations about her origins would more likely focus on whether her mother was really a Braavosi gentlewoman.  Probably some people would imagine her to be of much lower birth.

Regardless of the presence of the gap or no the circumstances of her sudden appearance in the Vale do not change. She came out of nowhere at the right time frame Sansa Stark disappeared from King's Landing. The people who would have figured it out at the time of her appearance. It would be even more likely that she would look more like a Tully at eighteen.

 

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Harry is very clearly painted as hungry for status (e.g., his shield crest, which would be virtually an affront to Lord Arryn by the normal rules of heraldry).  I very much doubt he'd be so hung up on Saffron as to be huffy with one of the most eligible noble maidens in Westeros; indeed, that sort of match would be the sort of thing he'd be desperate for.  Moreover, the amount of work Baelish put in to arrange the betrothal (buying up debts, etc.) would be unnecessary if he was just going to tell Waynwood his secret.

I don't see him being more hungry for status than the next westerosi noble. The most I got from him is that he is indulged, pampered and spoiled. LF buying debt could be a pretext or his first unsuccessful effort to arrange the match or to exert control over Anya Waynwood. It still remains a fact that Anya Waynwood would be far more likely to be swayed if she knew Sansa's true identity whether LF told her or she figured it out on her own.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

I really don't agree there.  The end of ASOS established him as one of the most important villains of the series, and we weren't originally supposed to see him again until five years later; I can't imagine he was ever meant to die almost immediately after such a reveal.

Being the Tyrell's catspaw does not make him the grand villain of the story if they are is such a thing. I'm not saying that he will necessarily die now, but there is no particular need for him to stick around either. As a character he doesn't have anything to offer to the story. Powermongering is hardly unique and the role of the schemer with eyes to the throne is occupied by Varys. Any scheming he is like to do will affect the Vale and can be carried forth by Sansa. He is her demon and her mentor. She might deal with him now or along the way.

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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

@Colonel Green  the five year gap was supposed to give the young characters time to age physically. It was never meant to materially alter the story.

But it would have materially altered the story, as GRRM said.  It has altered what he was going to tell, though he's sticking to the essentials.  The point being, if Sansa's disguise was meant to hold up for five years, it would by that point have become pretty accepted.

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I don't see him being more hungry for status than the next westerosi noble. The most I got from him is that he is indulged, pampered and spoiled. 

Harry's circumstances are very different from the ordinary Westerosi noble.  He's your stereotypical poor relation, not even (as far as we know) in line to inherit the Hardyng lands, but with an immediate blood claim that would make him one of the most powerful people on the continent if Robert dies.  He's quite literally hovering between being a near-nobody and being one of the 8-10 most important people in Westeros.  Moreover, there's huge symbolism in his arms; turning half his shield into the Arryn crest, when his Arryn descent is only his grandmother, is pretty bold.

I don't think this makes Harry a terrible person or anything, but I think it does make him the sort who'd be unlikely to get hung up on a commoner mistress when exactly the sort of match he'd have been wanting all his life presented itself.

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Being the Tyrell's catspaw does not make him the grand villain of the story if they are is such a thing. I'm not saying that he will necessarily die now, but there is no particular need for him to stick around either. As a character he doesn't have anything to offer to the story. 

He wasn't the Tyrells' catspaw; they were his.  He set up the whole thing.

Baelish's history with the Starks and Tullys makes him incredibly important to Sansa's story, and it's something none of the other villains in the story have.  He's her central foe, as well as her mentor.  This is a relationship that I expect will take a lot longer to play out.

Edited by Colonel Green

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7 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

But it would have materially altered the story, as GRRM said.  It has altered what he was going to tell, though he's sticking to the essentials.  The point being, if Sansa's disguise was meant to hold up for five years, it would by that point have become pretty accepted.

I don't believe that is the case. Regardless, if by hold you mean publically anounced, or that noone has challenged it that is ok. That noone has seen through it or that many someones did not I find a stretch.

 

13 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Harry's circumstances are very different from the ordinary Westerosi noble.  He's your stereotypical poor relation, not even (as far as we know) in line to inherit the Hardyng lands, but with an immediate blood claim that would make him one of the most powerful people on the continent if Robert dies.  He's quite literally hovering between being a near-nobody and being one of the 8-10 most important people in Westeros.  Moreover, there's huge symbolism in his arms; turning half his shield into the Arryn crest, when his Arryn descent is only his grandmother, is pretty bold.

He's hardly the first to quarter his shield and he is of Arryn ancestry. It is the most prestigious of his blood,  so it occupies the most. I don't see anything presumptous or bold about it. That would be the case if bor the moon and falcon solo. Also, he is not really hovering. Everyone pretty much expects him to be the lord of the Vale sooner or later. They are fawning over him, arranging tournaments for him to win etc.. Hardly the person who is hungry for status.

And if he's been waiting for a prestigious for all his life why is he having his second bastard from a second girl and a lowborn one too?

25 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

He wasn't the Tyrells' catspaw; they were his.  He set up the whole thing.

Baelish's history with the Starks and Tullys makes him incredibly important to Sansa's story, and it's something none of the other villains in the story have.  He's her central foe, as well as her mentor.  This is a relationship that I expect will take a lot longer to play out.

That is the subject for another thread but I disagree with that statement. The only characters who LF means anything to anymore are Lady Stoneheart and Sansa. To the rest he's barely a blip in the radar.

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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

He's hardly the first to quarter his shield and he is of Arryn ancestry. It is the most prestigious of his blood,  so it occupies the most. I don't see anything presumptous or bold about it.

Because that's not how it works.  He'd be entitled to, at most, 1/4 of the shield with an Arryn sigil.  GRRM's knowledge of medieval information isn't always consistent, but he knows a lot about heraldry, and Harry's shield is a big faux pas.

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And if he's been waiting for a prestigious for all his life why is he having his second bastard from a second girl and a lowborn one too?

Because a single dude shagging some peasants doesn't affect his prestige much, if at all?  Many nobles do it, without evident problem.

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That is the subject for another thread but I disagree with that statement. The only characters who LF means anything to anymore are Lady Stoneheart and Sansa. To the rest he's barely a blip in the radar.

Sansa is one of the most important characters in the story, so being important to her story would be enough on its own (in theory, all of the other Starks would have problems with him too, if they met him, though it's debatable if that will ever happen).  This series is ultimately the story of the character development of its major characters; Sansa has, I believe, the fifth-most chapters of any living character.  GRRM has meticulously set up Baelish's role in her story, to the extent that he's a perfect mix of issues relating to both of Sansa's parents.

Edited by Colonel Green

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10 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Because that's not how it works.  He'd be entitled to, at most, 1/4 of the shield with an Arryn sigil.  GRRM's knowledge of medieval information isn't always consistent, but he knows a lot about heraldry, and Harry's shield is a big faux pas.

Because a single dude shagging some peasants doesn't affect his prestige much, if at all?  Many nobles do it, without evident problem.

Sansa is one of the most important characters in the story, so being important to her story would be enough on its own (in theory, all of the other Starks would have problems with him too, if they met him, though it's debatable if that will ever happen).  This series is ultimately the story of the character development of its major characters; Sansa has, I believe, the fifth-most chapters of any living character.  GRRM has meticulously set up Baelish's role in her story, to the extent that he's a perfect mix of issues relating to both of Sansa's parents.

I'm going to take your word about the shield. It doesn't look though as anyone remarking on it. And still his attitude to me doesn't strike me as someone who is preoccupied about marriage.

I'm not contesting Sansa's importance in the story, but she's still one of many. Even with the other Starks, knowing that he betrayed their father, they didn't have any interactions with him so there wouldn't be much emotional resonance. The only other character that would care what happened to LF is Tyrion, but even he has moved on. LF's character is limited in scope without further intervention from Martin and therefore expendable.

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