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[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3


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13 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

I loved this chapter. For the first time in a long time Sansa is actually enjoying her life. Her interactions with Harry were a delight. Loved it how she sassed him. He deserved that, especially after his disgusting comment over his late lover. Enjoyable as it was in many ways this chapter feels like a calm before a storm... 

PS: Why are some people here saying she was too over-confident. I didn't get that impression. I think you guys are only taken aback from Sansa's openness, because of her forced timidness in King's landing. Let the poor girl enjoy. 

Sansa has always had an openness, think of the number of times that got her in trouble with the Lannisters or she feared what she had said. That was early pre KL with Joffrey and later in King's Landing. Now, she has less fear, that's the only change as far as I can tell, which may have it's own issue. She hasn't really changed her personality very much, she's matured, is slightly wiser into the evils of men but otherwise plays the Lord's daughter perfectly, because she is, and more or less acts like Sansa, looks like Sansa, and the only difference is hair dye. And while the story is a fantasy, that shit would have to reapplied like once per week to keep any red from showing.

We never spent much time with Sansa before KL, this is likely who she was.

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17 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

I loved this chapter. For the first time in a long time Sansa is actually enjoying her life. Her interactions with Harry were a delight. Loved it how she sassed him. He deserved that, especially after his disgusting comment over his late lover. Enjoyable as it was in many ways this chapter feels like a calm before a storm... 

PS: Why are some people here saying she was too over-confident. I didn't get that impression. I think you guys are only taken aback from Sansa's openness, because of her forced timidness in King's landing. Let the poor girl enjoy. 

That's an understatement! Poor Sansa. 

Does anyone think that the Mad Mouse will make off with her? My hunch is that he will try, and Petyr will use the episode to make her feel even more dependent on him. 

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I think Shadrich will definitely try, but fail and expose Sansa's identity in the process. That would shake things up in the vale. 

The question is will the lords and ladies at the Vale throw Sansa at the lions when they learn her identity? 

I like to think they won't because one some people are already aware of who she is and they haven't ratted her out. And two when all of the vale courtiers are aware they would protect her even only because she is Ned's daughter. 

 

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Hi everyone,

Well, this is my first post on the forums.  Like most everyone, I come to Westeros.org when I need to do some research on a subject or character from ASOIAF.   I've been lurking on the forums but as it had been years since I first read the books, beginning with the publication of the first 20 years ago, I never felt comfortable posting.  However, during the last year, I've been re-reading the books and have felt comfortable enough to start posting my comments online.  

As I mentioned, I've been lurking and reading the various threads and decided to make my first post in this one because as I was reading it, I thought that I would run across a particular analysis and as I didn't, I started to wonder if I was crazy...and maybe I am and it led to me deciding to de-lurk and ask a question.  There were also a lot of pages to the thread and as I skip a few, it's possible that I missed what I expected to see, and in that case, apologies.

The question I wanted to ask is does anyone else see the probability that GRRM is using the search for SR's Winged Knight Kingsguard as a reenactment of The Tourney of Harrenhal?  

Everything seems to be in place for it.  You have Lyanna, the lady wolf in the form of Sansa; her betroth, Robert in the form of Harry (even down to him replicating Robert in the fathering of bastard children); the event is taking place in the Vale of Arryn where Robert was fostered and where he had his first bastard, Mya; you have a short in stature hedge knight in Ser Shadrich (although he is of a different moral character than Howland); And, I suspect that eventually, Brienne will end up in the Vale and will be representative of the "non" laughing knight.  The only person missing is the Rheghar stand-in, which I believe will be Jon as it was hinted at in Sansa's last chapter in AFFC as she descended from the Eyrie and the wind was described as howling fiercely.   "It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf as big as mountains."

To me, this hints at one of two things. The first option is that Ghost would be in the Eyrie and where there's Ghost, Jon is not far behind. Or the second possibility is that Ghost dies when Jon is brought back and it's symbolic Jon the ghost that Sansa is sensing in the mountains.  Either way, I think that it's a safe bet that when Jon leaves the Wall as he no doubt will, he will head south passing the Eyrie and will probably participate in the Tourney after he recognizes Sansa.  At some point both Jon and Sansa will have to go back to Winterfell but as the story left off, Stannis will be the one to take back Winterfell or at least attempt to do so.  Since Winterfell is not currently an option for him, it makes sense that he would head south and end up at the Eyrie...especially as it's obvious that the Knights of the Vale and House Arryn have a major role to play in the endgame.

So what does everyone think?  Do you think this scenario as I outline could play out.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

I think Shadrich will definitely try, but fail and expose Sansa's identity in the process. That would shake things up in the vale. 

The question is will the lords and ladies at the Vale throw Sansa at the lions when they learn her identity? 

I like to think they won't because one some people are already aware of who she is and they haven't ratted her out. And two when all of the vale courtiers are aware they would protect her even only because she is Ned's daughter. 

 

A lot would depend on who is calling the shots in King’s Landing. 

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21 hours ago, Stormy4400 said:

Hi everyone,

Well, this is my first post on the forums.  Like most everyone, I come to Westeros.org when I need to do some research on a subject or character from ASOIAF.   I've been lurking on the forums but as it had been years since I first read the books, beginning with the publication of the first 20 years ago, I never felt comfortable posting.  However, during the last year, I've been re-reading the books and have felt comfortable enough to start posting my comments online.  

As I mentioned, I've been lurking and reading the various threads and decided to make my first post in this one because as I was reading it, I thought that I would run across a particular analysis and as I didn't, I started to wonder if I was crazy...and maybe I am and it led to me deciding to de-lurk and ask a question.  There were also a lot of pages to the thread and as I skip a few, it's possible that I missed what I expected to see, and in that case, apologies.

The question I wanted to ask is does anyone else see the probability that GRRM is using the search for SR's Winged Knight Kingsguard as a reenactment of The Tourney of Harrenhal?  

Everything seems to be in place for it.  You have Lyanna, the lady wolf in the form of Sansa; her betroth, Robert in the form of Harry (even down to him replicating Robert in the fathering of bastard children); the event is taking place in the Vale of Arryn where Robert was fostered and where he had his first bastard, Mya; you have a short in stature hedge knight in Ser Shadrich (although he is of a different moral character than Howland); And, I suspect that eventually, Brienne will end up in the Vale and will be representative of the "non" laughing knight.  The only person missing is the Rheghar stand-in, which I believe will be Jon as it was hinted at in Sansa's last chapter in AFFC as she descended from the Eyrie and the wind was described as howling fiercely.   "It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf as big as mountains."

To me, this hints at one of two things. The first option is that Ghost would be in the Eyrie and where there's Ghost, Jon is not far behind. Or the second possibility is that Ghost dies when Jon is brought back and it's symbolic Jon the ghost that Sansa is sensing in the mountains.  Either way, I think that it's a safe bet that when Jon leaves the Wall as he no doubt will, he will head south passing the Eyrie and will probably participate in the Tourney after he recognizes Sansa.  At some point both Jon and Sansa will have to go back to Winterfell but as the story left off, Stannis will be the one to take back Winterfell or at least attempt to do so.  Since Winterfell is not currently an option for him, it makes sense that he would head south and end up at the Eyrie...especially as it's obvious that the Knights of the Vale and House Arryn have a major role to play in the endgame.

So what does everyone think?  Do you think this scenario as I outline could play out.

 

 

No. I don’t think the timing works. Jon is in a coma or dead at the Wall, and the tourney will be done within a few days, no? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean
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On 9/13/2017 at 2:10 AM, Stormy4400 said:

And, I suspect that eventually, Brienne will end up in the Vale and will be representative of the "non" laughing knight.  The only person missing is the Rheghar stand-in, which I believe will be Jon as it was hinted at in Sansa's last chapter in AFFC as she descended from the Eyrie and the wind was described as howling fiercely.   "It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf as big as mountains."

To me, this hints at one of two things. The first option is that Ghost would be in the Eyrie and where there's Ghost, Jon is not far behind. Or the second possibility is that Ghost dies when Jon is brought back and it's symbolic Jon the ghost that Sansa is sensing in the mountains.  Either way, I think that it's a safe bet that when Jon leaves the Wall as he no doubt will, he will head south passing the Eyrie and will probably participate in the Tourney after he recognizes Sansa.  At some point both Jon and Sansa will have to go back to Winterfell but as the story left off, Stannis will be the one to take back Winterfell or at least attempt to do so.  Since Winterfell is not currently an option for him, it makes sense that he would head south and end up at the Eyrie...especially as it's obvious that the Knights of the Vale and House Arryn have a major role to play in the endgame.

So what does everyone think?  Do you think this scenario as I outline could play out.

The timing is impossible on both of those.  This chapter was meant to be in ADWD, where Brienne and Jon were elsewhere, and it would require enormous offscreen narrative leaps to put them there.

Also, the tourney is invitation-only, and you can't easily get into the Vale, so it wouldn't be on anybody's way normally.

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For the jousting yes, but for the melee you don't need any invitation. Though I agree characters like Jon, Brienne or Jaime are out of question for obvious reasons. A certain dog, however, could end up visiting. Could explain why GRRM deliberately tried to not mention him in this chapter. Considering how often Sansa thinks of Sandor the fact that he is barely in this one makes me incredibly suspicious.

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4 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The timing is impossible on both of those.  This chapter was meant to be in ADWD, where Brienne and Jon were elsewhere, and it would require enormous offscreen narrative leaps to put them there.

Also, the tourney is invitation-only, and you can't easily get into the Vale, so it wouldn't be on anybody's way normally.

But per Martin, the events in AFFC and ADWD are concurrent.  Even if Jon's body is put into the icy cells as Bran's vision seems to indicate, there won't be a long period of time between when he dies and when he returns for a couple of reason.  First, the Night Watch would never keep his body for a long period of time as their practice is to burn bodies right away...generally the next morning.  Second, if Jon is left in Ghost for too long a period of time, he will take on too much of the traits of the direwolf and Jon still has to be the controlling personality to lead the fight for the dawn.  

At the most, I would think that his body remains in the crypts about two days.  This means that if he leaves the wall and heads south after he returns as I suspect will be the case, he will be passing the Eyrie right about the time of the Tourney.

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2 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

For the jousting yes, but for the melee you don't need any invitation. Though I agree characters like Jon, Brienne or Jaime are out of question for obvious reasons. A certain dog, however, could end up visiting. Could explain why GRRM deliberately tried to not mention him in this chapter. Considering how often Sansa thinks of Sandor the fact that he is barely in this one makes me incredibly suspicious.

I think that Sandor will probably show up in the story again but not in Vale.  I think that part of Sandor's role in the story is to represent what Jon will be like when he returns.  GRRM even gave him a name that ties into Jon.  Wolf Hound anyone!

As the Hound told Sansa, he enjoys killing.  Jon before he is killed does not.  However, there is a scene in ADWD where he thinks to himself, "food even taste better in Ghost," or words to that affect.  I think that when he returns with the wolf now literally a part of him, killing will taste better as well.  Just like Sandor.  

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On 9/14/2017 at 8:03 PM, Queen Sansa Stark said:

For the jousting yes, but for the melee you don't need any invitation. Though I agree characters like Jon, Brienne or Jaime are out of question for obvious reasons. A certain dog, however, could end up visiting. Could explain why GRRM deliberately tried to not mention him in this chapter. Considering how often Sansa thinks of Sandor the fact that he is barely in this one makes me incredibly suspicious.

I don't think the Hound showing up is likely either from a practical perspective or a larger story one.  Sansa has too much story left to play out with Littlefinger, and the Hound's presence would abruptly terminate that because he knows too much about LF's past actions.  It would also be a huge leap from where we last saw him that would be extremely difficult to justify.

On 9/14/2017 at 10:39 PM, Stormy4400 said:

But per Martin, the events in AFFC and ADWD are concurrent.  Even if Jon's body is put into the icy cells as Bran's vision seems to indicate, there won't be a long period of time between when he dies and when he returns for a couple of reason.  First, the Night Watch would never keep his body for a long period of time as their practice is to burn bodies right away...generally the next morning.  Second, if Jon is left in Ghost for too long a period of time, he will take on too much of the traits of the direwolf and Jon still has to be the controlling personality to lead the fight for the dawn.  

At the most, I would think that his body remains in the crypts about two days.  This means that if he leaves the wall and heads south after he returns as I suspect will be the case, he will be passing the Eyrie right about the time of the Tourney.

No, that doesn't follow at all.  Jon's last chapter takes place after the stuff going on with Sansa, and the tourney is stated to be beginning the following day in TWOW Alayne I.  Having Jon be resurrected, leave the Wall, travel south, etc. all before Sansa's next chapter (indeed, had this been in ADWD like it was supposed to be, all before Sansa's first chapter) is unworkable.

And the Eyrie is not something you would naturally pass by on your way south.  It's cut off from the rest of Westeros.  The only way he could ever get there is if he deliberately traveled there by sea.

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1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

I don't think the Hound showing up is likely either from a practical perspective or a larger story one.  Sansa has too much story left to play out with Littlefinger, and the Hound's presence would abruptly terminate that because he knows too much about LF's past actions.  It would also be a huge leap from where we last saw him that would be extremely difficult to justify.

No, that doesn't follow at all.  Jon's last chapter takes place after the stuff going on with Sansa, and the tourney is stated to be beginning the following day in TWOW Alayne I.  Having Jon be resurrected, leave the Wall, travel south, etc. all before Sansa's next chapter (indeed, had this been in ADWD like it was supposed to be, all before Sansa's first chapter) is unworkable.

And the Eyrie is not something you would naturally pass by on your way south.  It's cut off from the rest of Westeros.  The only way he could ever get there is if he deliberately traveled there by sea.

When he goes south, he will pass the Crossroads.  I'm sure that there will be news about the tourney melee at the inn and all he has to do is take the eastern road and head to the Eyrie to participate.  Jon having recently returned from the dead and with Ghost’s direwolf aspect now a part of him will be in a killing mood (JMO).  In TWOIAF, they tell us that the northern men don’t like jousting and that the melee was more their sport.  Hearing of one in the area…especially in the mood he probably will be in would be of interest to Jon.  I don't know specifically how it will happen but I'm pretty confident that Jon will end up in the Eyrie.  Also although D&D have changed a lot in the story the last couple of years to the detriment of the show, I think what they got right is the fact that Jon and Sansa will be the first of the Stark kids to reunite and that the Knights of the Vale.  I also think that it will happen in the Eyrie because in my opinion, the Knights of the Vale and the Mountains of the Morn are very important to the story.

And I still say the timing lines up.  Think of Alayne's last chapter in AFFC when Myranda told her that Ned Stark's bastard son was now Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Sansa thinks about how it would be sweet to see Jon again and then as she's continues down the mountain, a strong wind hits them.  She thinks of this wind as a "howling ghost wind as big as a mountain."  I think that's the moment when Jon died over at the Wall.  For us the reader, it didn't happen until ADWD but because we know from Martin that this book ran concurrently with the story in AFFC, we can extrapolate if the two books were combined into one as originally intended, Sansa Eyrie chapter and Jon death chapter would align. 

Also, the Alayne preview chapter would have to take place at least 2-3 weeks after her descent from the Eyrie as they would have to give the contestants time to arrive for the tourney.  Plus, her and Myranda seem to have become comfortable in each other’s presence and that couldn’t have happened overnight.  As such, there would have to be a slight passage of time from Alayne’s last chapter in AFFC. And if we assume that the “howling ghost wind” reference was a tip to Jon’s murder, then time has passed for him and his leaving the Wall and arriving at the Crossroads around the time of the tourney would match up.  Every important event of the past that plays into the current story is happening again in some manner and so, it only makes sense that the Tourney of Harrenhal would repeat as well.  In fact, GRRM maybe giving us two tourneys for the price of one as it could be argued that it’s the Tourney of Ashford Meadows playing out again as well.  I wouldn’t be at all surprise if there is a puppet show about Florian and Jonquil and we finally get to heart that song that Sansa knows about them.

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4 hours ago, Stormy4400 said:

When he goes south, he will pass the Crossroads.  I'm sure that there will be news about the tourney melee at the inn and all he has to do is take the eastern road and head to the Eyrie to participate.

No, because the High Road is closed by snow (and the clans).  This comes up in both ASOS and AFFC.

Quote

For us the reader, it didn't happen until ADWD but because we know from Martin that this book ran concurrently with the story in AFFC, we can extrapolate if the two books were combined into one as originally intended, Sansa Eyrie chapter and Jon death chapter would align. 

No, they don't, because the Alayne preview chapter from TWOW was originally supposed to be in ADWD.

The final third of ADWD takes place after AFFC; that's why a bunch of straggler POVs from AFFC starting showing up around that point (Cersei, Jaime, Arya, Areo, Asha; had they not been cut, Sansa and Aeron would have too).

Edited by Colonel Green
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On 14/9/2017 at 10:39 PM, Stormy4400 said:

But per Martin, the events in AFFC and ADWD are concurrent.  Even if Jon's body is put into the icy cells as Bran's vision seems to indicate, there won't be a long period of time between when he dies and when he returns for a couple of reason.  First, the Night Watch would never keep his body for a long period of time as their practice is to burn bodies right away...generally the next morning.  Second, if Jon is left in Ghost for too long a period of time, he will take on too much of the traits of the direwolf and Jon still has to be the controlling personality to lead the fight for the dawn.  

At the most, I would think that his body remains in the crypts about two days.  This means that if he leaves the wall and heads south after he returns as I suspect will be the case, he will be passing the Eyrie right about the time of the Tourney.

I actually think she's the "girl on the dying horse" (Alys is the red herring), I know that's an unpopular opinion but you should consider the option: Sansa and Jon reuniting at the wall, not at the Tourney. Tight timelines, but it's not impossible and I don't think Jon will come back immediately.

7 hours ago, Stormy4400 said:

D&D have changed a lot in the story the last couple of years to the detriment of the show, I think what they got right is the fact that Jon and Sansa will be the first of the Stark kids to reunite and that the Knights of the Vale.  I also think that it will happen in the Eyrie because in my opinion, the Knights of the Vale and the Mountains of the Morn are very important to the story.

It is a major plot point: the reconstruction of Winterfell and the rise to power, Sansa can't do it all alone and Undead Jon needs a reason to fight (family is a good one)...... or maybe we're watching a completely different story, that is certainly possible too. :mellow:

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"It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains."

That, and the snow castle foreshadowing. 

Edited by TRILOGY
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@Stormy4400

I think Jon is set up to out of it for some time. He already has a bad temper, and Bran is warned repeatedly to not spend too much time in Summer so it really seems like at least one of the Stark kids will run into this problem. It really looks to be Jon (a few quotes about Jon & Ghost being a bit too close below). I just don't think he's going to be very likable in TWOW. I'm also not sure about events repeating themselves too literally in regards to the Harrenhal Tourney. I strongly suspect Jon is headed for the Vale, but what I'm seeing doesn't allow for any Tourney participation. It also doesn't make sense to me that Jon would leave the NW given what he's seen and then go off and dink around in tourneys.

Sheesh, I meant for this be shorter. I’ll say read and reread ADWD Jon II very carefully. This theory mostly stems from this chapter and also from the hunch going back to my first read of AGOT that Jon would be tied to the Vale somehow because his namesake is Jon Arryn and Cat’s Vale chapters figure him so prominently. Later, Sansa’s Vale chapters would have prominent Jon mentions. Sorry so short on quotes. I’d be repeating too much of the chapter. If you re-read the chapter, be especially aware of Vale and LF references. A lot of people noticed that there seemed to be a significant time jump between the last AFFC Alayne chapter and this chapter which I think would be necessary for this to work.

The Cliffnotes:

Jon is in a coma/believed to be dead: Jon thinks of himself as “Sleepy Jon Snow” yet feels wetness from snowflakes in his hair which is often death foreshadowing. No one actually sees the snowflakes, though. Look for all of the references to how close he and Ghost are now throughout ADWD. Remember that Jon/Ghost are closer at this point than Bran and Summer were then. Tyrion observed that Summer was keeping Bran alive.

The smells are stronger in my wolf dreams, he reflected, and food tastes richer too. Ghost is more alive than I am.

ADWD Jon VII

Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake.

· Jon will be sent away secretly like Gilly, Sam, Maester Aemon and Dalla’s baby embarking on his Targ arc. Gilly parallels Lyanna: parting from her child and makes Jon promise her something. Sam parallels Ned: fathering a child who isn’t his to protect him. Jon parallels Maester Aemon (a Targ) and Dalla’s baby who is a king’s son who must be sent into hiding. Jon might enter his Targ arc with strong parallels to how he left it. We’ve also seen through Sam how this journey goes, so no need for anyone’s POV to relate it to the reader if Jon’s in a coma.

· Jon will be embarking on his KitN arc: Jon recalls the story Artos Stark who became heir when his brother the heir was beheaded (Robb). Another Vale reference: Artos is really close to Artys which was the name of the Arryn hero. Jon Arryn had just been mentioned right before the Artos Stark story.

· Jon will be embarking on something Azor Ahai-ish I’m not convinced that there is an Azor Ahai at all but folks may believe that he is or whatever. This is the chapter where he reads the Jade Compendium.

· Jon will be sent away because Marsh doesn’t want Jon there and because there’s no Maester to care for him. The murder was a crime of passion which I expect he will come to regret, or he’s working with LF, or he’ll pin the attempted murder on the wildlings and put up a pubic face of being loyal to Jon, or something. Whatever the reason for Jon being sent away, the no Maester thing seems important. If he’s injured, there’s no one in all of the NW who can care for him competently. Where do you send him if he's in a stabilized coma like Bran and can be moved? No Starks, don’t know who is mother is, no Tullys, LF was married to a Tully, it’s a safe assumption that Marsh is linked to LF, and ships are already headed to the Vale for food. Again, look for Vale and LF references:  Janos’ execution, mention of Jon Arryn, Giant uses his little finger to clean out his ear when he’s told to man and rebuild (snow) castles (Icemark), more….

Sam put a hand to his throat. "My lord, the Citadel … they make you cut up corpses there. I cannot wear a chain."

"You can. You will. Maester Aemon is old and blind. His strength is leaving him. Who will take his place when he dies? Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower is more fighter than scholar, and Maester Harmune of Eastwatch is drunk more than he's sober."

ADWD Jon XI

Cellador would be half-drunk, and Clydas was a poor substitute for a real maester, but they were what he had.  

Maester Harmune later ends up in Hardhome so Jon couldn’t stay at Eastwatch. 

· Who puts Jon on the boat secretly at Eastwatch? A crony of Alliser and Slynt is also tight with Bowen Marsh.

In ADWD Jon X:

Glendon Hewett was a seasoned man and a strong one, a sensible choice to command in Cotter Pyke's absence. But he was also as much a friend as Alliser Thorne could boast, and a crony of sorts with Janos Slynt, however briefly. Jon could still recall how Hewett had dragged him from his bed, and the feel of his boot slamming into his ribs. Not the man I would have chosen. He rolled the parchment up and slipped it into his belt.

· Where does the boat go?

Lots of Vale and LF references, so maybe there. We know Jon planned to send ships to the Vale for food and Marsh is obsessed with getting more food so we know he’ll be continuing Jon’s order. But there’s a lot of moving parts so the plan might go wrong, too. There’s so much ship traffic cataloged in ADWD which is missing in other Jon chapters, so maybe some important details here.

· Yohn really wants to sell his food. Is it to a NW ship when his son Waymar is still lost north of the Wall?

· What makes Oswell freak and LF bolt when Harry is about to arrive and it’s imperative to LF that Sansa and Harry hook up? Jon who is comatose a la Bran arrived unexpectedly on a food ship from the NW?

 

There are a number of reason why I like this idea.

I like LF as a credible RLJ reveal. The reader knows that LF would lie to you about what he had for breakfast that morning, but the general Westerosi citizen doesn't know that at all. At worst, some think him an ambitious weasel to be tolerated. Those old tapestries might be key to proving it though I can only guess how. I think it’s almost impossible that LF doesn't know or at least strongly suspect RLJ. Ned comes home with a bastard(s?) and there’s a mystery mistress(s?) and LF doesn’t look for more dirt to try to blackmail Ned into a position at Winterfell to be Catelyn’s shoulder to cry on? No way given his off-the-charts level of obsession. There’s a lot of potential to move the story forward very quickly here with a LF RLJ reveal. We know he has some really big move planned soon. LF’s MO is to pit major houses against each other and watch them destroy themselves. When Targs have dragons, that doesn’t work. LF needs his own Targ who will hopefully procure his own dragon. As soon as he’s served his purpose, LF offs Jon.

I like the potential for a Stark reunion in moving Jon South. Lots of Bran stuff happening in the Vale with the parallels to Robert Arryn and the prominent mention of weirwoods.  Arya is linked to the Riverlands which is nearby. Stoneheart’s in the Riverlands.

ADWD Jon V

"Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, "but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them."

It’s unbelievable to me that Stoneheart hasn’t pieced together Sansa’s disappearance + LF’s obsession with the Tullys + LF suddenly having a bastard daughter Sansa’s age. Stoneheart is prowling the Riverlands tearing Freys to pieces (dogs in that they’re wannabe Starks). Sansa is Stone which never moves unless kicked.

I would be quite amused if Jon sets out to rescue his sister fArya like a knight in shining armor, but ends up needing to be rescued by his frou-frou sister instead. Sansa needing to use her wits to get both her and an incapacitated brother out of a bad situation would definitely be a Stone getting kicked, especially given that she believes Jon is the last of her family and if something happens which makes her fully realize that she’s not near as secure as she thought. I’m rather tired of Sansa being a victim or a damsel in distress. Time for something different for her. Let’s make Jon the damsel :D

In addition to Sansa needing something major to kick her into gear,  for Jon’s KitN or secret Targ storyline to happen he needs to get away from the Wall. If he’s to believably survive the Others coming through the Wall, he has to not be there. They don’t take prisoners and it’s been clearly established that Jon won’t run away screaming, not that one can run well in snow anyhow.

That said, there’s so many moving parts, that I wouldn’t be surprised if something else happens altogether. When you look carefully, a lot of scenarios have some back up in the text. But you ask if it’s possible for Jon to end up in the Vale, yeah, I think it is.

 

Edited by Lollygag
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On 9/23/2017 at 7:33 PM, Ethenil said:

Say, how long has it been that Sansa's in the Vale, as of this chapter? A couple of months? An year? 

She fled KL on the Westerosi equivalent of January 1, 300.  Say it took a few weeks to get to the Fingers, and from there she's probably been in the Vale several months.  She doesn't appear to have turned 14 yet, so not approaching a year.

Edited by Colonel Green
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On 17/9/2017 at 6:01 AM, Lollygag said:

Jon is in a coma/believed to be dead: Jon thinks of himself as “Sleepy Jon Snow” yet feels wetness from snowflakes in his hair which is often death foreshadowing. No one actually sees the snowflakes, though.

Interesting theory, I honestly think Jon is dead but I wanted to highlight this part. In ASOS, Sansa feels wetness from snowflakes in her face, do you think this could be foreshadowing to Sansa dying (during the war for the dawn)? The mention of the statue of the weeping woman and Sansa falling to her knees adds to this.

Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought.

In the same chapter:

Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me.

And GOT Jon IX:

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair.

Edited by TRILOGY
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On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 3:45 PM, TRILOGY said:

Interesting theory, I honestly think Jon is dead but I wanted to highlight this part. In ASOS, Sansa feels wetness from snowflakes in her face, do you think this could be foreshadowing to Sansa dying (during the war for the dawn)? The mention of the statue of the weeping woman and Sansa falling to her knees adds to this.

Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought.

In the same chapter:

Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me.

And GOT Jon IX:

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair.

I’m not really sure about the statue. Personally, I’ve always associated it more with Lysa and Catelyn/Stoneheart (Lysa literally breaks later in this chapter while weeping). Interestingly snowflakes are a big part of that scene.

I’m really glad you asked this as it led me to dig into the snowflake thing further and it truly deserves it’s own topic as it’s raised some questions for me. 

Right now, I’m guessing snowflakes on a face (not the kind melting in the hair which I now think need to be treated as a different thing) signal a role change or an identity change which amounts to symbolic death. Theon feels snowflake kisses in ADWD and his next chapter becomes Theon I. Robb has snowflakes on his face as he receives news of Kings Landing which marks the beginning of his Lord of Winterfell arc which leads to him becoming KitN. Alys has snowflakes melting on her cheeks when she marries Sigorn (I think she’s mad at the Starks yet and she bonds awful quickly with Sigorn who HATES Jon so for me this is an identity and an alliance change). Sam feels a snowflake on his nose right before Jon tells him he’s going to be a Maester. Chett is attacked by snowflakes and he becomes a wight. Varamyr feels snow melting on his face and enters his second life as a wolf. A snowflake melts on Cersei’s letter before Jaime burns it. Splitting from Cersei is a big identity change for Jaime and Cersei both. Quotes below.

AGOT Bran V

The joy Bran had felt at the ride was gone, melted away like the snowflakes on his face. Not so long ago, the thought of Robb calling the banners and riding off to war would have filled him with excitement, but now he felt only dread. "Can we go back now?" he asked. "I'm cold."

I found snowflakes on the faces of Jon, Bran and Sansa which include ominous mentions of Robb, though Bran doesn’t specify snowflakes melting in Robb's hair. He hasn't left Robb at this point, so it's not really an appropriate thought for Bran. Like those mentioned above, all of them have identity changes ahead. Bran’s becoming the 3EC. Jon may never be Jon Snow again (Kill the boy, thought Jon). And Sansa may remain Alayne Stone. I’m not sure what to think of the link to Robb for all three. I also can’t find an equivalent incident with Arya, but maybe just need to explore rain since snow is limited to cold areas.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2764

Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.

AGOT Bran V also has a lot of direct and indirect Vale/Eyrie/LF references. Osha is a parallel to Stonesnake and Mya Stone, the chapter refers to a Stark being captured by Mance which links to Jon’s Stonesnake arc which also has a lot of Vale references,  Robb and Bran receive news of Kings Landing which is LF’s doing. Bran runs into wildlings (Vale) and he rides out into the woods for the first time on Dancer much like Robert Arryn’s ride down from the Eyrie. 

Many have noticed connections between Mya Stone and Stonesnake who are both guides who say something to the effect of “the mountain is your mother/father.” Here we see Osha linked to Mya Stone by description and to Stonesnake as she carries a spear with a serpent on it.  Osha would later become a guide figure to Bran and more so Rickon and would try to guide Robb north rather than south. She then will eventually take Rickon to Skagos which means means “Stone” in the old tongue. Both Mya and Osha are wiry, manish looking, and while Mya has a bowl-shaped haircut, Osha wears a bowl helmet on her head. 

Bran felt a sudden dread. Dark wings, dark words, Old Nan always said, and of late the messenger ravens had been proving the truth of the proverb. When Robb wrote to the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the bird that came back brought word that Uncle Benjen was still missing. Then a message had arrived from the Eyrie, from Mother, but that had not been good news either. She did not say when she meant to return, only that she had taken the Imp as prisoner. Bran had sort of liked the little man, yet the name Lannister sent cold fingers creeping up his spine. There was something about the Lannisters, something he ought to remember, but when he tried to think what, he felt dizzy and his stomach clenched hard as a stone. (Remember Sansa’s tummy problems).

Anyhow, accidently found more Jon-Catelyn-Bran-Sansa Vale stuff.

Quote

AGOT Bran V

And now another raven, another message. Bran clung to hope. "Was the bird from Mother? Is she coming home?"

"The message was from Alyn in King's Landing. Jory Cassel is dead. And Wyl and Heward as well. Murdered by the Kingslayer." Robb lifted his face to the snow, and the flakes melted on his cheeks. "May the gods give them rest."

ASOS Prologue (he later becomes a wight)

Chett got to his feet. His legs were stiff, and the falling snowflakes turned the distant torches to vague orange glows. He felt as though he were being attacked by a cloud of pale cold bugs. They settled on his shoulders, on his head, they flew at his nose and his eyes. Cursing, he brushed them off.

ASOS Samwell I (Sam the weak and craven becomes Sam the Slayer in this chapter)

"Back on your feet, Piggy," someone growled as he went past, but Sam paid him no mind. I'll just lie down in the snow and close my eyes. It wouldn't be so bad, dying here. He couldn't possibly be any colder, and after a little while he wouldn't be able to feel the ache in his lower back or the terrible pain in his shoulders, no more than he could feel his feet. I won't be the first to die, they can't say I was. Hundreds had died on the Fist, they had died all around him, and more had died after, he'd seen them. Shivering, Sam released his grip on the tree and eased himself down in the snow. It was cold and wet, he knew, but he could scarcely feel it through all his clothing. He stared upward at the pale white sky as snowflakes drifted down upon his stomach and his chest and his eyelids. The snow will cover me like a thick white blanket. It will be warm under the snow, and if they speak of me they'll have to say I died a man of the Night's Watch. I did. I did. I did my duty. No one can say I forswore myself. I'm fat and I'm weak and I'm craven, but I did my duty.

AFFC Samwell I (Jon tells him he’s going to be a Maester)

A snowflake landed on Sam's nose. "Jon wants to see me?"

AFFC Jaime VII

A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. "No," he said. "Put this in the fire." 

ADWD Jon X

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. 

ADWD Prologue

Varamyr could feel the snowflakes melting on his brow. This is not so bad as burning. Let me sleep and never wake, let me begin my second life. His wolves were close now. He could feel them. He would leave this feeble flesh behind, become one with them, hunting the night and howling at the moon. The warg would become a true wolf. Which, though? 

ADWD A Ghost in Winterfell

Outside the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. He found himself alone in a white wilderness, walls of snow looming up to either side of him chest high. When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace.

 

 

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