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[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If I was Sansa, I wouldn't go anywhere near someone that my Dad screwed over that much.

Who did Ned "screw over"?

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10 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Who did Ned "screw over"?

Sorry, was vague here.

Ned was part of Robert's crew which caused the death of Aegon's family and caused Aegon to be raised in exile. The reader knows that Aegon isn't very preoccupied with revenge, but Sansa doesn't know that. For all she knows, he's as angry as Viserys was (usurper's dogs). Too big of a risk IMHO to go near Aegon without some good intel on him first.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sorry, was vague here.

Ned was part of Robert's crew which caused the death of Aegon's family and caused Aegon to be raised in exile. The reader knows that Aegon isn't very preoccupied with revenge, but Sansa doesn't know that. For all she knows, he's as angry as Viserys was (usurper's dogs). Too big of a risk IMHO to go near Aegon without some good intel on him first.

Ned was an horable man, only dishonorable people hate such (ie, Lannisters, Freys, to name a couple) Viserys was an unknown to Westeros in all but name and not missed and as for Sansa,  I am sure she would like to get undone from the farce of a marriage to the Imp. I think she would be happiest with The Hound myself but Littlefinger still has control over her and who would be a better groom for her and advantageous for him, Harry, heir to the Vale or Aegon Vi, King of Westeros? Aegon/FAegon needs allies with men, money and supplies (food). Littlefinger and the Vale have all but it will come at a price to be sure.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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11 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Ned was an horable man, only dishonorable people hate such (ie, Lannisters, Freys, to name a couple) Viserys was an unknown to Westeros in all but name and not missed and as for Sansa,  I am sure she would like to get undone from the farce of a marriage to the Imp. I think she would be happiest with The Hound myself but Littlefinger still has control over her and who would be a better groom for her and advantageous for him, Harry, heir to the Vale or Aegon Vi, King of Westeros? Aegon/FAegon needs allies with men, money and supplies (food). Littlefinger and the Vale have all but it will come at a price to be sure.

As far as the Targaryens are concerned, Ned was a rebel and traitor.  Sansa wouldn’t have any reason to think he’d be favourable toward her.

Moreover, Littlefinger’s position is not strong enough to commit the Vale to external wars.  Indeed, that’s the reason he’s doing the Harry the Heir scheme in the First place.

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7 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

As far as the Targaryens are concerned, Ned was a rebel and traitor.  Sansa wouldn’t have any reason to think he’d be favourable toward her.

Moreover, Littlefinger’s position is not strong enough to commit the Vale to external wars.  Indeed, that’s the reason he’s doing the Harry the Heir scheme in the First place.

Littlefinger has more influence in the Vale than you think. Buying the debts of lords and ladies, blackmail and influence too. Now, the common foe is the Lannisters and the Vale has been chomping at the bits to fight, they wanted to join Robb. As far as the Ned thing, Aegon needs money and men to add to his forces. Food too, LF is hoarding that in particular and oh yes, Sansa is beautiful and a virgin, something Arianne of Dorne is not (since she has not been mentioned in a while here) I will just say it is a possibility. I am a SanSan believer myself. That is the one she really wants. She though, has very little agency at this time.

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You really think JonCon would go for that? Aegon has show he wants to do things himself but I doubt Jon Connington will be totally out of the loop. And accepting the child of one of the Rebellion leaders as a bride for Aegon? Doubtful, we already know he plans to kill Tommen and Myrcella as vengeance for Gregor and Amory. I can’t see him feeling much differently about the daughter of one Rebellion leader (Ned) , granddaughter of another (Hoster) and with close ties to the heir of a third Rebellion leader (Jon Arryn).

Im also not convinced that the Vale as a whole wants or wanted war. Royce, certainly. Some other knights and lords too perhaps. But I’m not convinced a majority wanted war.

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Posted (edited)

Here's Sansa's own words as to what she wants in romance/marriage and it's not Harry, not Aegon, not the Hound, not anyone. She definitely doesn’t care for being married to Tyrion, but she’s very aware of the fact that the marriage protects her from marriage merry-go-round and keeps her from being used as political pawn.

ASOS Sansa VII

I will tell my aunt that I don't want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell. Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again.

AFFC Alayne II

"A marriage . . ." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . ." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know."

 

 

 

In addition to other reasons listed above as to why LF wouldn't favor a Sansa/Aegon match beyond the fact that he may up and behead her or something, I'll add these reasons and also why it doesn't make sense to me considering the overall story:

· LF wouldn’t be willing to hand off control of Sansa to Aegon Varys.

· LF’s MO thus far has been to destabilize the realm and plunge it into war. Marrying Aegon and Sansa establishing a Targ Restoration is the opposite of that. LF doesn't personally benefit from any system which promotes the feudal system as LF wasn't born into that class. I don't know what LF is up to, but stabilizing and strengthening the feudal system isn't it.

· It seems much more likely that Aegon will marry someone else first. I don't see LF's logic that Sansa could rule the Vale and I think he's bs-ing her on this account. Without the Vale, Sansa has little to offer Aegon especially given that the Starks don't even hold Winterfell.

· And I really don’t see Sansa in King’s Landing anytime soon given the Bermuda Square of an even more crazy Cersei/Qyburn vs Tyrells vs the Faith Militant, Aegon’s invasion, Euron’s invasion, and then the new fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees Dany. Sounds like it’s just going to be a bloody mess and I rather doubt that there will be anyone to annul Sansa’s marriage especially after Euron plays his part. I think that the King’s Landing that the reader knows has its days numbered and I don’t see how it benefits Sansa’s development as a character to put her in the middle of that. To be honest, I rule out a number of characters’ potential to go to KL in the near future for this reason. LF's pattern is to start wars then ride them out safely in the background, not to be in the middle of them.

· LF would have to be aware that marrying Aegon and Sansa puts her right in the crosshairs of Dany and her dragons. If I really wanted to kill Sansa and keep my hands clean, I’d send her to KL with all of the armies coming and marry her to Aegon just in time for Dany and her dragons to arrive.

 

Actually the only way I see an Aegon/Sansa match happening is if Aegon is repelled from KL and he's forced to bounce around Westeros seeking support which would make Aegon more desperate and put he and Sansa (LF) on more equal footing.

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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I didn't read the whole thread (it's more than thirty pages long!) but has this been mentioned:

Quote

It was clever. The tourney, the prizes, the winged knights, it had all been her own notion. Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen. He will want to be there to greet Ser Harrold. Where could he have gone?

while we did see some development in the last chapters of AFFC, and Sansa seems to be getting more savy about politics, I believe this quote is proof that Sansa is still totally clueless about Littlefinger's modus operanti and she's still totally a pawn in his game. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI 

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

"Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras's inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras's case.

This is just how Petyr Baelish works... he's even told Sansa before and she's still falling for it. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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49 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I didn't read the whole thread (it's more than thirty pages long!) but has this been mentioned:

while we did see some development in the last chapters of AFFC, and Sansa seems to be getting more savy about politics, I believe this quote is proof that Sansa is still totally clueless about Littlefinger's modus operanti and she's still totally a pawn in his game. 

This is just how Petyr Baelish works... he's even told Sansa before and she's still falling for it. 

I agrr with you. And I think it goes further than that. LF has basically corrupted sansa's morality. She is ready to do anything as long as LF convinces her...

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4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I didn't read the whole thread (it's more than thirty pages long!) but has this been mentioned:

while we did see some development in the last chapters of AFFC, and Sansa seems to be getting more savy about politics, I believe this quote is proof that Sansa is still totally clueless about Littlefinger's modus operanti and she's still totally a pawn in his game. 

This is just how Petyr Baelish works... he's even told Sansa before and she's still falling for it. 

I'm not clear what you're asserting here.  Sansa has been reading Robert those stories for a while.  There's no indication he said anything to give her the idea.  Her clearly developed it further to suit his own plans, but that's different.

On 1/5/2018 at 7:47 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Littlefinger has more influence in the Vale than you think.  Buying the debts of lords and ladies, blackmail and influence too. Now, the common foe is the Lannisters and the Vale has been chomping at the bits to fight, they wanted to join Robb.

Er, what you're describing is the influence everybody knows him to have.  And that has pronounced limits, as Baelish himself said.

It's incorrect that the Vale as a whole was chomping at the bit to fight.  As GRRM said, some did (particularly the ones, ironically, that aren't on Littlefinger's side), others were neutral, others wanted to back the Lannisters.

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15 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

I'm not clear what you're asserting here. 

I'm asserting Sansa had the idea for a tourney because Littlefinger wanted to throw a tourney and gave her all the right clues to come up with such a notion. 

I do not believe he has currupted her morality, whatever that means, but I believe she cannot see through his manipulation, just like Mace Tyrell didn't. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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3 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

I'm not clear what you're asserting here.  Sansa has been reading Robert those stories for a while.  There's no indication he said anything to give her the idea.  Her clearly developed it further to suit his own plans, but that's different.

Er, what you're describing is the influence everybody knows him to have.  And that has pronounced limits, as Baelish himself said.

It's incorrect that the Vale as a whole was chomping at the bit to fight.  As GRRM said, some did (particularly the ones, ironically, that aren't on Littlefinger's side), others were neutral, others wanted to back the Lannisters.

The Lannister backers are a minority and at this point, A very small minority. However, many can be bought which is something the Lannisters can do now and then.

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13 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'm asserting Sansa had the idea for a tourney because Littlefinger wanted to throw a tourney and gave her all the right clues to come up with such a notion. 

I do not believe he has currupted her morality, whatever that means, but I believe she cannot see through his manipulation, just like Mace Tyrell didn't. 

There’s no basis for that.  The source of the idea was Sansa’s relationship with Robert and his reaction to the stories she reads him.

Sansa is never going to develop skills if you just assume without any evidence that any idea she has was planted by Baelish.

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On 1/12/2018 at 8:27 PM, Colonel Green said:

I'm not clear what you're asserting here.  Sansa has been reading Robert those stories for a while.  There's no indication he said anything to give her the idea.  Her clearly developed it further to suit his own plans, but that's different.

Er, what you're describing is the influence everybody knows him to have.  And that has pronounced limits, as Baelish himself said.

It's incorrect that the Vale as a whole was chomping at the bit to fight.  As GRRM said, some did (particularly the ones, ironically, that aren't on Littlefinger's side), others were neutral, others wanted to back the Lannisters.

Which lords of the Vale wanted to back Tywin in the War of the Five Kings? 

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8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Which lords of the Vale wanted to back Tywin in the War of the Five Kings? 

I don’t know, but GRRM said as much in one of the SSMs.

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On 13/01/2018 at 1:34 PM, Colonel Green said:

There’s no basis for that.  The source of the idea was Sansa’s relationship with Robert and his reaction to the stories she reads him.

Sansa is never going to develop skills if you just assume without any evidence that any idea she has was planted by Baelish.

She's developed a lot of skills and I really appreciate her character. She's an impressive young woman and she's had an incredibly interesting story arc. I just believe she is still being played by Petyr Baelish - who is a master of the art by the way. She hasn't seen through him yet (though I can see she might be getting there). 

Quote

AFFC, Sansa I 

Sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers.

(...)

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the maskbegan. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go.

She doesn't trust Baelish and want to flea, which is great, but she does think "Littlefinger" is the mask and "Petyr Baelish" (her friend and savior) is who he really is. 

For the record, it was Mace's idea to name Loras to the kings guard. Littlefinger never so much as suggested it. And it's not like it's bad for him to have a son in the kingsguard at all. The source of his idea were the songs he heard, and the fact that he knew there was a vacant position, and the practical difficulty of finding bride and land for his third son who is gay. All of which are true things.

I believe we are led to think the same is true for Sansa's idea of the tourney. It was her idea! It's just an idea that was very convenient for Baelish... 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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On 6/19/2017 at 11:29 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

On a side note, if Sansa does end up killing Littlefinger, I wonder if it will be with the Tears of Lys. It would certainly serve some poetic justice. 

I am inclined to think, although I don't think she will be alone; not alone in the plotting and not alone in the execution, that she will do it like her father would had done.  She has no experience with swords, but yet again, how much skill is required to chop someone's neck off.?  I think she will quote "thy who pass the sentence must yield the sword" or whatever the exact phrase was, hence shocking us all since she is supposed to the the one destined for embroidery (nothing wrong with embroidery lol)

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 1/5/2018 at 6:16 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

You really think JonCon would go for that? Aegon has show he wants to do things himself but I doubt Jon Connington will be totally out of the loop. And accepting the child of one of the Rebellion leaders as a bride for Aegon? Doubtful, we already know he plans to kill Tommen and Myrcella as vengeance for Gregor and Amory. I can’t see him feeling much differently about the daughter of one Rebellion leader (Ned) , granddaughter of another (Hoster) and with close ties to the heir of a third Rebellion leader (Jon Arryn).

Im also not convinced that the Vale as a whole wants or wanted war. Royce, certainly. Some other knights and lords too perhaps. But I’m not convinced a majority wanted war.

On a related note, if Margerary manages to survive long enough, she will be considered for Aegon as well. The Tyrells and The Reach were Targaryen loyalists, although a bit incompetent with the exception of Lord Tarly.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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On 1/16/2018 at 6:35 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

She has no experience with swords, but yet again, how much skill is required to chop someone's neck off.?

A lot.  It's extremely difficult.

Sansa's whole arc is about feminine forms of power, so having her personally executed people with a sword would be a miss on a thematic level, in my view.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/11/2018 at 0:21 AM, Colonel Green said:

A lot.  It's extremely difficult.

Sansa's whole arc is about feminine forms of power, so having her personally executed people with a sword would be a miss on a thematic level, in my view.

I agree and can't remember in which context I said that but hey take me not sporty at all but if fueled enough with anger....  okay not good enough for someone good with weapons, but hey we get Tyrion freaking out and doing stuff...  I agree with Sansa's arc and I also agree with the majority that alone or with others she will take down LF and not necessarily with poison say...but that is another thing all together ;)

Actually, I am going to back off from my apology or whatever, not in a bad way I hope.  I think someone super enraged is capable of a hell of a lot!

Size and weight can be crucial provided your opponent isn't mad with anger.  There is something very psychological about a fight "for life as opposed to a fight to win or for theft, say" If you want someone that bad, yes physical advantage is an advantage for sure but rage is the killer.

 

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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