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Xray the Enforcer

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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But the show have proved that to get to the same ending they are able to go completely there own way. Basically so long as they don't kill the main characters off ie: Jon, Sansa, Arya,Bran,Tyrion or Dany before they do whatever their role in the ending is they can do as they please. Jon could go dance the macarena with the Nights king for the next two seasons so long as he comes back to the right place to play his part by the end. ditto Danny she could spend the next two years getting spar treatments and eating quail. And all D&D need do is have her end up going to do whatever GRRM told them she ultimately does, They could give Bran a hole love story with Leaf if they liked to keep his story going but it would mean jack in terms of the books. Tyrion can spend two years making witty banter with whores in Pentos and just pop on over to Wherever he needs to be in season 7 to do whatever he has to do. And Arya might chillax in Braavos then whizz on over to Ashai before a sojourn in the summer isles, then back to do her bit. So whatever Sansa is up to this season or next doesn't reflect George's plan for her arc. It reflects D&D's plans.



My point being what D&D do means sweet FA.


Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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But the show have proved that to get to the same ending they are able to go completely there own way. Basically so long as they don't kill the main characters off ie: Jon, Sansa, Arya,Bran,Tyrion or Dany before they do whatever their role in the ending is they can do as they please. Jon could go dance the macarena with the Nights king for the next two seasons so long as he comes back to the right place to play his part by the end. ditto Danny she could spend the next two years getting spar treatments and eating quail. And all D&D need do is have her end up going to do whatever GRRM told them she ultimately does, They could give Bran a hole love story with Leaf if they liked to keep his story going but it would mean jack in terms of the books. Tyrion can spend two years making witty banter with whores in Pentos and just pop on over to Wherever he needs to be in season 7 to do whatever he has to do. And Arya might chillax in Braavos then whizz on over to Ashai before a sojourn in the summer isles, then back to do her bit. So whatever Sansa is up to this season or next doesn't reflect George's plan for her arc. It reflects D&D's plans.

My point being what D&D do means sweet FA.

I disagree. There are frankly very few changes where I have not been able to follow their logic. Your post is hyperbolic because clearly to tell a story, the steps along the path have to help in the telling of it, and generally they have in the show.

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That's not really the point though. The books and show are telling the same over-arching story. The paths to the end don't need to be the same but they do need to arrive at the same story destination.

I am not trying to understand how they fit together now, I am trying to understand how these moves lead to the same end game.

The point on Sansa's arc being personal is interesting ADanceWithCats. Bu her arc is not independent of LF's or Stannis's or Ramsay's now that she is going North, so what are the consequences.

The show is off the rails, it means little and less to ASOIAF.

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I absolutely think LF IS trying to woo Harry, Why else is he flattering him by placing him in the Falcon tower And what is the purpose of the ridiculously lavish display of his wealth? I really think the best place to look for clues as to what LF intends is in the actual text and not wildly speculating that LF must be doing a quadruple bluff which has zero textual evidence behind it. It seems entirely based on some peoples conviction that LF is a master player who never reveals his hand. When in actuality from what we've seen of him he is opportunistic and manipulative, and has no hang ups about honour, ethics, or morality. Which is how he has climbed so high.

Without Lysa Tully's love for him he would have gotten no where. He was prepared to exploit that love to get himself into a position where he could defraud the Vale, and then KL. He is undoubtedly very clever, and has used his intelligence to rob the lords and merchants blind. Then once he amassed unimaginable wealth he triggers a war, again he is able to do this due to his influence upon Lysa Arryn.

~~~~snip~~~~

The bolded I completely agree with. What is in the text? As TWE notes he is opportunistic and exploitative. But not all are under LF's spell. Bronze Yohn Royce doesn't seem to be, and what of Corbray? Did Sansa tell it true when she came across him in the practice yard? Lyn wanted Lysa for similar reasons as LF; for her claim. And he may of wanted it badly, I'd love to see that LF has underestimated him.

In this chapter he putting on a tourney and giving lavish banquets and gifts. A huge lemon cake that is giving the finger to the starving Riverlands. I really think LF is beginning to slip. He can't control all the pawns, and in a tourney, with emotions high, violence the game of the day and plenty of wine, well, some of those pawns may make moves of their own.

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I think that's a pretty imature take on things frankly. It is in fact possible to have intelligent discussions that take both show and books into account. It is a rich fictional world we are talking about it, and the interpretations are endless. The whole show hate thing is IMO unimaginative.

But no point picking a fight I guess. Try showing a bit of respect for differing views.

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They could give Bran a hole love story with Leaf if they liked to keep his story going but it would mean jack in terms of the books.

Lol. I seriously ship Leaf and Bran.

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I think that's a pretty imature take on things frankly. It is in fact possible to have intelligent discussions that take both show and books into account. It is a rich fictional world we are talking about it, and the interpretations are endless. The whole show hate thing is IMO unimaginative.

But no point picking a fight I guess. Try showing a bit of respect for differing views.

No It is a rule of the forum, show discussion happens in show threads, book discussion happens in book threads. Calling a person who doesn't wish to discuss the show in relation to the books, and has pointed out valid reasons why it is not really helpful to attempt to do so immature is name calling. People have every right to dislike the show, people can be very imaginative and not like what D&D have done. It is a matter of differing tastes.

I would appreciate it if you showed more respect for differing views.

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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No It is a rule of the forum, show discussion happens in show threads, book discussion happens in book threads. Calling a person who doesn't wish to discuss the show in relation to the books, and has pointed out valid reasons why it is not really helpful to attempt to do so immature is name calling. People have every right to dislike the show, people can be very imaginative and not like what D&D have done. It is a matter of differing tastes.

I would appreciate it if you showed more respect for differing views.

Oooh, flashbacks to the Jojen paste thread last year! I knew I recognised the username :p

All I will say on the matter, before respecting the board rules Nd moving on, is that any discussion of the show and what it means for the future of any character must out of necessity occur retrospectively, because we dont know whether it is relevant or not until we have the book. For example, if we did not have a Feast for Crows, and we discussed the implicatio.s of his arc this season, we would be going down entirely the wrong path.

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Ah yes, that Thread. My god did that get on my tits!!



I dunno I'm not a mod. But as far as I'm concerned I don't want to discuss the show so I stay off the show forum, and I appreciate that the forum rules state to keep it separate.

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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The point on Sansa's arc being personal is interesting ADanceWithCats. Bu her arc is not independent of LF's or Stannis's or Ramsay's now that she is going North, so what are the consequences.

That's where the second half of my post comes in. :-)

Let's assume, for example, that this season ends with Sansa marrying and consummating with Ramsay, slitting Roose's throat and escaping with Theon and Brienne heading for Stannis. Brienne will have to make the choice between her two oaths: to kill Stannis or to protect Sansa. What will this mean for the books? Well, probably that Sansa loses her virginity soon, it doesn't much matter with whom, and that Roose will die soon in the books as well.

But whatever of importance happens, will happen in the latter part of the season, in the resolution.

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She will display her skills in KL when she becomes a prisoner of Cersei again. She has a trial to win. She can play some cards like Cersei's mistrust to the Tyrells, their secret dealings with the LF, and she might denounce Rickon as an impostor as he will be supporting Stannis. At the same time, she might make quick alliances with Marg or Tyene.

I think Sansa is supposed to be the Younger and More Beautiful Queen (if such a thing is not a product of Cersei's schizophrenic mind) and she can do that only in the KL.

No, that doesn't make any sense. Sansa as a prisoner in KL would not have "cards to play". She would be a powerless prisoner again; the fact that Sansa was powerless in KL before was not a product of naivete, it was inherent in the situation. You can't play the game on that level without any sort of base of support.

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No, that doesn't make any sense. Sansa as a prisoner in KL would not have "cards to play". She would be a powerless prisoner again; the fact that Sansa was powerless in KL before was not a product of naivete, it was inherent in the situation. You can't play the game on that level without any sort of base of support.

Not to mention, the Cersei we all love to hate would, in all likelihood, have Sansa's head snicked off the second she lays hands on her. Tyrion was already foubd guilty, thats good enough for Cersei. She wouldnt bother with a second trial, or if she did, it would be a 'trial' in which the verdict has already been decided

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If Sansa falls prisoner after Cersei returns to power, there would be no trial, no cards to play.. just her pretty head being removed from her shoulders..

or worse, she will be given to qyburn.

though it would be interesting to speculate... what if the VAle plot unveils much faster and she falls prisoner during Mace regency?

Mace would be forced to give her a trial, woulnd´t he?

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[mod] TV show discussion stays in the TV forums, please. [/mod]

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Now come on.... seriously :P

Well, yeah. I think the mother of Brandon the Builder was a CotF and he was a hybrid who had small stature and long life. It might be past time another Stark marrying another CotF.

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I don't think Sansa will be kidnapped and brought back to KL by Shadrich - or, if it does happen, it is bad writing, and here is why I think so:



1) Why should Sansa trust Shadrich? She learned that lesson with Dontos. (Who, btw, I think sincerely wanted to help her on some level at the same time he was in the pay of LF. I think Dontos trusted LF too well himself - LF probably told him, "I'm a dear, close friend of Sansa's mother and I only want the best for Sansa!") I don't think she's going to be sneaking off to meet Shadrich in the godswood, or wherever, anytime soon.



2) The circumstances are against it. As I and others have pointed out, it's not easy to sneak people into or out of the Gates of the Moon, especially now with LF having Gulltown's ports closed. The reason the Great Spring Sickness did not affect the Vale was that it is easy to cut off access in and out of it.



3) LF got Sansa out of KL by taking advantage of the pandemonium surrounding Joffrey's death, and he had help (Dontos, a boat, etc.). Sansa was unwatched and unguarded. "Alayne" is surrounded by Petyr, Sweetrobin, Myranda, and, soon, eight Winged Knights.



4) Speaking of which - if "Alayne" disappears, the tantrum Sweetrobin will throw will be heard all the way in Dorne. He is going to command those Winged Knights of his to "FIND ALAYNE! OR I WILL MAKE YOU FLY!"



5) Yet Another Hostage In KL Arc would be repetitive and, frankly, bad writing. We've been there and done that and the plot needs to move forward.



6) The only people who are interested in trying Sansa for regicide are dead (Tywin, Kevan) or imprisoned and disgraced (Cersei). I don't think the Tyrells want a trial, as they are too busy with rescuing Margaery, dealing with Ironborn, and propping up their own rule in the capital. If they want Sansa, it's to get her to marry Willas for real this time; as far as they know, she's still the heiress to Winterfell and potentially Riverrun as well. Shadrich's going to be mighty disappointed if he expects Lannister gold in exchange for Sansa.



If Shadrich is in the pay of Varys, then Sansa is not headed to Cersei and KL, but to wherever Aegon is, possibly for another Stark/Martell/Targaryen love triangle (oh please noooooo). Or, possibly, to Highgarden to marry Willas, if Varys is trying to get in the Tyrells' good books. GRRM has said we'll see Highgarden in TWOW - maybe it will be through Sansa.



Crossing my fingers for no backtracking to KL for Sansa...


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6) The only people who are interested in trying Sansa for regicide are dead (Tywin, Kevan) or imprisoned and disgraced (Cersei). I don't think the Tyrells want a trial, as they are too busy with rescuing Margaery, dealing with Ironborn, and propping up their own rule in the capital. If they want Sansa, it's to get her to marry Willas for real this time; as far as they know, she's still the heiress to Winterfell and potentially Riverrun as well. Shadrich's going to be mighty disappointed if he expects Lannister gold in exchange for Sansa.

Mace pretty clearly believes that Sansa tried to kill Margaery, as do his bannermen. If they got Sansa in their custody, they would execute her (and if they learned about the secret Tyrell conspiracy, that's double motive to do it, to keep things quiet).

In any event, it's looking like Cersei is going to be back in power soon, based on "Mercy" (though I frankly don't understand how).

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