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Xray the Enforcer

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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~~~~sinp~~~~

Very well said!

I hope that seeing as much of how we both view sansa's story is similar that discussion can be enriching. I know I appreciate it when I read another poster who isn't freaking out about her going along with LF's plans and wishing for her to instantly get away from him. because I see that this is her story, she is by LF's side in order to learn. I have every faith that this does not indicate she will be "darthsansa" in the long run, loosing her morality and warping into a cold blooded monster. It just means she has shit to learn from him.....for now.

I appreciate the bolded because I have alot of trouble with Sansa's story with LF. I have come to realize that her story with LF is similar to Arya's in Braavos with the HoBW and Bran with the BR. Each of these Stark children are with their mentors now. How grey to to dark the will finally get remains to be seen, but for me currently Sansa's journey is difficult to read because I hate LF so much.

However, I must admit, parsing through this thread and others has brought out detail and thoughts that make for a more interesting and fleshed out read of this chapter.

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Yeah, OK. I can appreciate your position, and thank you for explaining it! I still respectfully disagree - I don't deny that the attraction existed, mind you, I just think that ultimately, it has already served its narrative purpose (brought Sandor to a happy place, took Sansa through a pretty dark time). But I certainly can appreciate your position. And hey, can happen, why not. Shipping San/Pow means that, if, at the end of all things, Sansa is given and makes this particular choice, it's OK, too.

I mostly wrote that I 'laugh' at SanSans ~~~snip~~~

This where to me you come across as attacking the person, not the idea. I base this on other posts of yours I've seen that I've felt attacked the person.

Edited by LongRider

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I appreciate the bolded because I have alot of trouble with Sansa's story with LF. I have come to realize that her story with LF is similar to Arya's in Braavos with the HoBW and Bran with the BR. Each of these Stark children are with their mentors now. How grey to to dark the will finally get remains to be seen, but for me currently Sansa's journey is difficult to read because I hate LF so much.

However, I must admit, parsing through this thread and others has brought out detail and thoughts that make for a more interesting and fleshed out read of this chapter.

I agree with this - LF is meant to be Sansa's mentor, and so she will probably be at his side (and, I hope, just that!) for some time. And I hate LF too. I think here is the rub. LF is responsible for more destruction and more deaths of characters we, the readers, have come to care about, and he's a pervy creep to boot - in a way that the Kindly Man and Bloodraven are not. The deaths the KM is responsible for are not beloved characters like Ned; BR's interactions have been with those in the Dunk and Egg stories, and not everyone has read those. And we don't see either one perving on tween girls like LF did with Sansa when they first met. Arya's and Bran's mentors aren't personally loathsome (yet) in a way that Sansa's is. I see that as one of the main problems some have with the Sansa-learns-from-LF storyline. Bran and Arya are learning from ruthless men who have killed; so is Sansa, but LF is a weasel and a perv on top of everything else. The KM isn't asking for "fatherly" kisses from Arya, and, as for BR, it's hard for a tree to grope someone.

Edited by KittensRuleBeetsDrool

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I agree with this - LF is meant to be Sansa's mentor, and so she will probably be at his side (and, I hope, just that!) for some time. And I hate LF too. I think here is the rub. LF is responsible for more destruction and more deaths of characters we, the readers, have come to care about, and he's a pervy creep to boot - in a way that the Kindly Man and Bloodraven are not. The deaths the KM is responsible for are not beloved characters like Ned; BR's interactions have been with those in the Dunk and Egg stories, and not everyone has read those. And we don't see either one perving on tween girls like LF did with Sansa when they first met. Arya's and Bran's mentors aren't personally loathsome (yet) in a way that Sansa's is. I see that as one of the main problems some have with the Sansa-learns-from-LF storyline. Bran and Arya are learning from ruthless men who have killed; so is Sansa, but LF is a weasel and a perv on top of everything else. The KM isn't asking for "fatherly" kisses from Arya, and, as for BR, it's hard for a tree to grope someone.

What, never seen Evil Dead?

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What, never seen Evil Dead?

Well, no I haven't, but I have seen The Wizard of Oz.

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I agree with this - LF is meant to be Sansa's mentor, and so she will probably be at his side (and, I hope, just that!) for some time.

To be honest, I think she's already falling for him a bit. She's practically the only person in the books who calls him 'Petyr'. And the 'Petyr':'Littlefinger' ratio in the new chapter is very high.

To be even more honest, I think he's actually falling for her, too. Hence it feels to me like the people who continuously repeat that 'he's just playing her' are in denial that this is what's happening.

I have no idea why this bothers people so much, though. The closer they are, the more he opens to her, the easier it will be for her to destroy him.

Edited by ADanceWithCats 😸

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A terribly written chapter, slow and plodding. So disappointing.


Edited by Sun

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To be honest, I think she's already falling for him a bit. She's practically the only person in the books who calls him 'Petyr'. And the 'Petyr':'Littlefinger' ratio in the new chapter is very high.

To be even more honest, I think he's actually falling for her, too. Hence it feels to me like the people who continuously repeat that 'he's just playing her' are in denial that this is what's happening.

I have no idea why this bothers people so much, though. The closer they are, the more he opens to her, the easier it will be for her to destroy him.

I think that she is warming to him, I wouldn't say falling for, there is nothing to indicate she feels remotely romantic towards him. Men & women can be platonic.

But he is falling for her, well he desires her. Not sure if he will ever love her, he seems more the obsessive possessive type. And his feelings for her is what will get him killed imo because whilst Sasna is seeing him more as Peytr & less as Littlefinger she isn't displaying any return of those feelings. And she is still wary of him, even if that wariness has dropped a lot. Besides I think her asking him how to flirt indicates that she is starting to play him a bit. Because this girl knows how to flirt, she's just been doing it out in the yard.

The more he opens up to her, the closer he lets her is, the easier it is for her to bring him down. IMO for her to kill him she needs to a; want to, and we all know there are certain pieces of information that if she discovered would give her that motive. & b; she has to have the power to do it. So either a fit of passion ie: self defense. I don't rule it out.

But I feel the higher probability is it playing out like the foreshadowing in the snowcastle scene. For which she has to be in a political position of power to have him arrested and be able to pass judgement on him. At which point his neck is on the block.

But in order for her to get to that position where she can arrest him, pass judgement and swing the sword, she needs him. So I think she and he are in it together for the time being. I don't think that means any sort of romance between them and I see nothing in her character which hints that she would.

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To be honest, I think she's already falling for him a bit. She's practically the only person in the books who calls him 'Petyr'. And the 'Petyr':'Littlefinger' ratio in the new chapter is very high.

"Petyr" is her father figure version of him, the one she likes. She's always assigned his overt sexual advances to "Littlefinger", who she doesn't like.

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In this chapter, I noticed that Alayne bends the truth more like Varys than lying like Littlefinger. When read carefully, she tells the Vale nobles that Littlefinger killed Lysa.



“Are there no singers?” asked Ben Coldwater.


“The little lord cannot abide them,” Ser Lymond Lynderly replied. “Not since Marillion.”


“Ah… that was the man who murdered Lady Lysa, yes?”


Alayne spoke up. “His singing pleased her greatly, and she showed him too much favor, perhaps. When she wed my father he went mad and pushed her out the Moon Door. Lord Robert has hated singing ever since. He is still fond of music, though.”


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"Petyr" is her father figure version of him, the one she likes. She's always assigned his overt sexual advances to "Littlefinger", who she doesn't like.

Well, that's what I think this chapter has achieved. She no longer maintains the strict dichotomy. I mean, there's really only one place where she sees him as Littlefinger - it's the one where he's explicitly pimping her out to Harry.

Otherwise:

It had fallen out just as Petyr said it would [...] He had smoothed her hair and kissed her forehead. [...] And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea

Petyr drew her close and kissed her on both cheeks.

Not much of a physical or mental aversion here.

And then, her reaction to the cake ("a splendid subtlety," lol - we all know how "subtle" it is):

For me, Alayne thought [...] Petyr had promised

She seems pretty happy about it, doesn't she? Of course, sometimes a cake is just a cake.

The way I see it, what happened is that Littlefinger toned himself down slightly between the chapters and gave her some space, and she responded by shortening the mental distance between them. Now, the outcome of how much she has shortened it probably really depends on the next chapters; she's still in transition. She really scorns Harry and the inexperienced boys-'knights of summer', though.

If I were a guessing poster, I'd guess that this chapter would represent a sort of a pivot, and that we'd see her get a bit more explicit in the next ones. But hey, that's for TWOW.

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In this chapter, I noticed that Alayne bends the truth more like Varys than lying like Littlefinger. When read carefully, she tells the Vale nobles that Littlefinger killed Lysa.

“Are there no singers?” asked Ben Coldwater.

“The little lord cannot abide them,” Ser Lymond Lynderly replied. “Not since Marillion.”

“Ah… that was the man who murdered Lady Lysa, yes?”

Alayne spoke up. “His singing pleased her greatly, and she showed him too much favor, perhaps. When she wed my father he went mad and pushed her out the Moon Door. Lord Robert has hated singing ever since. He is still fond of music, though.”

That's a nice catch! Like almost everybody, I read it in the way it was meant to be understood (Marillion went mad and murdered Lysa), but in isolation that sentence speaks perfectly about "father" too (he did go mad when he kissed "Alayne", in a way). And it's true that Lysa showed Marillion too much favour, but he wasn't the one who went mad.

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I have to agree that Sansa being returned to KL makes no sense narratively at all, so If Shadrach is intending on abducting her, he will obviously fail. There is just no story for her in KL.


Her future lies in the North. It is clear that she will be the one to kill LF and I think personally that the Snowcastle scene is direct foreshadowing. IE: She'll remove his head at Winterfell and mount it on a spike.



So her going anywhere south just doesn't make sense to me. Not when her story arc is about gaining agency, learning how to play the game, using information to her advantage & becoming powerful in her own right. Being at the Mercy of Cersei, and frankly dead on arrival if she ever got her hands on Sansa again, is a dead end thematically.





I doubt Sansa's future lies in the north. As we know, the Vale has virtually been sealed off from the outside world, other than by boat (or dragon). Winterfell is in the midst of snowstorms right now and Sansa isn't near it. Nobody in the north (except Bran and Bloodraven, possibly) know where she is. And a campaign by Vale arms, into the north, isn't going to start while the winter has the land in its grip. LF's plans are longterm, IMO, and thus will not come to fruition due to events like Dance of Dragons v2.0 and invasion of the others.



I think Stannis will win the battle for Winterfell and take the castle, but he has been dismissive of "lady Lannister" and as we saw with Jeyne Poole, if he got either Stark sister he is likely to make a marriage for her (allthough ironically, since he recognises the marriage to Tyrion he might not do so for Sansa).



I don't think Sansa would have much use for her court experience and LF tutelage in Stannis' court, so I think she will remain in southern lands. Since she is in the Vale, which is also the breadbasket of westeros now (important! civil war + winter = hunger), I guess her story will develop there until Dany lands and she may be swept up in the "Dance". Tyrion also has some loose ends in the Vale, not just the clans but also LF and Sansa herself, I think there will be a confrontation of sorts if Sansa hasn't yet turned on LF. I could also see Sansa being the first Stark to deal with Dany; if there is any situation where Sansa's diplomatic skills can be put to good use it's in that arena. Dany is hostile to the Starks but can generally be reasoned with, and Sansa might be well placed to deflect the initial hostility and forge an alliance of sorts.



It will be interesting to see, in relation to the books, if Sansa would return south at the end of S5, or end up with Stannis. Based on what I wrote above, I think it more likely that the journey north will turn out to be a side-step with her returning to the south (river lands of Vale) in late S5 or early S6. If she doesn't, I may have to revise my book predictions as it seems unlikely to me the character arc would diverge so much from the books.


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I see her going North she expresses a constant desire to return to Winterfell. Winter makes travel difficult for sure, but I doubt impossible. There are still boats sailing, they could sail from Gulltown to White harbour, and then travel overland. Travel being difficult doesn't mean it is impossible. And moving an Army is much harder than moving a mid sized party of people.



I don't think her returning South is at all a likely idea, she desperately wants to go home.




ETA: I think Stannis dies.


Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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It will be interesting to see, in relation to the books, if Sansa would return south at the end of S5, or end up with Stannis. Based on what I wrote above, I think it more likely that the journey north will turn out to be a side-step with her returning to the south (river lands of Vale) in late S5 or early S6. If she doesn't, I may have to revise my book predictions as it seems unlikely to me the character arc would diverge so much from the books.

I'll be also interested to see what the show does, but we're not supposed to discuss it here. Maybe the mods will create a show-spoiler book discussion subforum after this season.

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I see her returning North as well, but she could have 'side trips' along the way. She has allies in Greywater Watch which isn't that far from the Vale, Bri and possibly Jaime, possibly the BWB and who knows, there are 'womens quarters' on the Quite Isle. The Manderlys in White Harbor would help her and even many lords of the Vale as well.



So going North could be a very interesting journey of our girl Sansa.


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I see her returning North as well, but she could have 'side trips' along the way. She has allies in Greywater Watch which isn't that far from the Vale, Bri and possibly Jaime, possibly the BWB and who knows, there are 'womens quarters' on the Quite Isle. The Manderlys in White Harbor would help her and even many lords of the Vale as well.

So going North could be a very interesting journey of our girl Sansa.

I think the entire KL-centered Iron Throne story represents "how we got here" background to the central story of "Ice and Fire," which is a story of the North and the Long Night and the Old Gods and Winter. If this is the case, action is moving north for the last two books. So if Sansa were to return to KL it would put her out of the main trajectory of the story. Maybe that will happen to preserve her to take part in post-War of Winter rebuilding. Or maybe she goes North because she and her remaining siblings have a role to play when Winter has come.

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The Vale has food. I think this will be very important once winter is fully present and the Others attack.



We also have to consider that the wall will likely be breached, and probably much of the north will be overrun (though maybe not Winterfell, with its handy central heating system). I think that leading a heroic resistance is right up Jon's (and possibly Stannis') ally, with Rickon possibly acting in a figurehead capacity. I don't see much use for Sansa in such a situation; politicking down south, getting potential allies to act (like with the food of the Vale - very handy if a Stark could exert some control over that) and befriending potential enemies (within reason, of course) is what I would expect her to be doing. Sansa has "southern" skills, IMO. As much as she misses Winterfell, she may be better suited to, say, Highgarden than to the harsh north.

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The Vale has food. I think this will be very important once winter is fully present and the Others attack.

We also have to consider that the wall will likely be breached, and probably much of the north will be overrun (though maybe not Winterfell, with its handy central heating system). I think that leading a heroic resistance is right up Jon's (and possibly Stannis') ally, with Rickon possibly acting in a figurehead capacity. I don't see much use for Sansa in such a situation; politicking down south, getting potential allies to act (like with the food of the Vale - very handy if a Stark could exert some control over that) and befriending potential enemies (within reason, of course) is what I would expect her to be doing. Sansa has "southern" skills, IMO. As much as she misses Winterfell, she may be better suited to, say, Highgarden than to the harsh north.

I see her returning North as well, but she could have 'side trips' along the way. She has allies in Greywater Watch which isn't that far from the Vale, Bri and possibly Jaime, possibly the BWB and who knows, there are 'womens quarters' on the Quite Isle. The Manderlys in White Harbor would help her and even many lords of the Vale as well.

So going North could be a very interesting journey of our girl Sansa.

If she stays south it will most likely be in the Riverlands and not King's Landing, which is likely to go up in flames, either through wildfire or dragons...take your pick. This is also the closest population in need of food, but between the show and what a lot of have seen foreshadowed in the books, I'm still saying she is headed toward Winterfell.

In this chapter, I noticed that Alayne bends the truth more like Varys than lying like Littlefinger. When read carefully, she tells the Vale nobles that Littlefinger killed Lysa.

“Are there no singers?” asked Ben Coldwater.

“The little lord cannot abide them,” Ser Lymond Lynderly replied. “Not since Marillion.”

“Ah… that was the man who murdered Lady Lysa, yes?”

Alayne spoke up. “His singing pleased her greatly, and she showed him too much favor, perhaps. When she wed my father he went mad and pushed her out the Moon Door. Lord Robert has hated singing ever since. He is still fond of music, though.”

Great catch and I'm a native English speaker who totally missed that.

Well, that's what I think this chapter has achieved. She no longer maintains the strict dichotomy. I mean, there's really only one place where she sees him as Littlefinger - it's the one where he's explicitly pimping her out to Harry.

Otherwise:

Not much of a physical or mental aversion here.

And then, her reaction to the cake ("a splendid subtlety," lol - we all know how "subtle" it is):

She seems pretty happy about it, doesn't she? Of course, sometimes a cake is just a cake.

The way I see it, what happened is that Littlefinger toned himself down slightly between the chapters and gave her some space, and she responded by shortening the mental distance between them. Now, the outcome of how much she has shortened it probably really depends on the next chapters; she's still in transition. She really scorns Harry and the inexperienced boys-'knights of summer', though.

If I were a guessing poster, I'd guess that this chapter would represent a sort of a pivot, and that we'd see her get a bit more explicit in the next ones. But hey, that's for TWOW.

The only time in this chapter I have seen her express a genuine sense of affection toward anyone was when she hugged Lothor Brune after he reaffirmed her first impressions of Harry...and he's the one who reminds her most of Sandor. Even if you don't like the romantic part of the Sandor and Sansa pairing, he is one person in King's Landing who helped her keep it real along with advising her how to maneuver through the politics.

Nothing with Littlefinger or Petyr is sustainable since the entire relationship is based on lies. How soon she starts putting the pieces together is anyone's guess at this point, but she's already showing great caution in what she says, who she says it to and how she says it.

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The Vale has food. I think this will be very important once winter is fully present and the Others attack.

We also have to consider that the wall will likely be breached, and probably much of the north will be overrun (though maybe not Winterfell, with its handy central heating system). I think that leading a heroic resistance is right up Jon's (and possibly Stannis') ally, with Rickon possibly acting in a figurehead capacity. I don't see much use for Sansa in such a situation; politicking down south, getting potential allies to act (like with the food of the Vale - very handy if a Stark could exert some control over that) and befriending potential enemies (within reason, of course) is what I would expect her to be doing. Sansa has "southern" skills, IMO. As much as she misses Winterfell, she may be better suited to, say, Highgarden than to the harsh north.

How does Sansa's skills being in the area of politics exclude her from The North? All I'm hearing is sansa is too Southern to ever go back to WF. Which is absolute :bs:

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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