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[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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As a matter of fact it just occured to me that Sansa might have unexpectedly unpleasant wedding night with Harry the Hair, somehow resembling what we saw on TV series, the trick being that in case of Ramsey on the show we knew what he wascapable of, while it would be an unpleasant surprise if it turns out that Harry can be more than arrogant jerk. This actually could be the controversial chapter of Sansa in TWOW.

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I sadly think that Sansa will be a casualty in the end, i don't think she'll be alive at the end of the books.

But i hope from all my heart i'm wrong and she'll make it.

Agreed. I used to think it would be either Sansa or Arya if another Stark died, but I'm increasingly convinced it will be Sansa.

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As a matter of fact it just occured to me that Sansa might have unexpectedly unpleasant wedding night with Harry the Hair, somehow resembling what we saw on TV series, the trick being that in case of Ramsey on the show we knew what he wascapable of, while it would be an unpleasant surprise if it turns out that Harry can be more than arrogant jerk. This actually could be the controversial chapter of Sansa in TWOW.

No, the "controversial" chapter has been confirmed by Ran to be the one recently released by Martin (the one discussed in this thread).

Remember, Sansa is taking a part of Jeyne's role in the books. Harry is not Ramsay. What may happen though, is that Sansa will have

sexual contact at some point, possibly with Harry.

The marriage to Tyrion is also noted as a serious obstacle in the books. The show ignored it, because they wanted her to take Jeyne's story. In the books, no such concerns are present.

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Little Finger sucks, true, but I would really really like to see him suffer--maybe get the treat of a POV in his head. It could be as much fun as Cersei. Yeah, dead is too easy an out for him. I hope GRRM gives LF his just rewards. Reminds me of the 1st read when I thought LF and Varys were adversaries. Maybe Varys will kick his butt after all. I've learned to adore Cersei--can't help but love her insanity and vanity..one of the cool girls in high school. The more I read LF the more I hate him. The more the show sweetens him the more nauseous I get listening to my unsullied friends talk about how good he is. Yuck. He needs something painful and debasing and he never saw coming.

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So according the show LF is taking the knights of the Vale to Winterfell in the aftermath of the Stannis/Bolton conflict to claim Winterfell. Is this a spoiler for the books. Is that what LF and Sansa will actually do?

At first I would not have thought so since it initially appears that LF is playing a long game, but now I wonder if things might go much faster. Could the tourney be a guise for a wedding? A wedding that could lead to war? If Harry agrees to marry why wait?

Everyone of importance is at this tourney, the pageantry and largeness is wooing the Knights of Summer. The focus of the gifts, food, celebrations could easily be romanticized to the whole event, tourney included, happening because of the wedding. The charming and beautiful Princess Sansa of House Stark marring the idealized lord Harry the Heir could send these young falcons to begging for war to take back Winterfell for them.

Oswell could have arrived on his lathered horse with news of an annulment. LF could be storing the food to feed an army and he could be closing ports and seizing ships to transport that army.

Of course there are plenty of wildcards that could mess up any plans and this was all just something new that crossed my mind recently. I want to read relevant chapters again but I thought I'd see what you guys had to say first. Is this a silly idea?

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I had a bit of a scary brain fart today that fits with some of the speculation here. What if Sansa ends up marrying Black Walder Frey in the books? I know...but hear me out.

Say the weather really is an insurmountable obstacle as far as Sansa going North goes? I am not sure it is, but say people who argue that are right. Sansa Frey would end up happening something like this:

1. Many Freys die, from Stoneheart, Nymeria, infighting, and Northern resistance. Black Walder survives, takes control of the Twins and Riverrun. LF's status as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands is in jeopardy as a result of the power Black Walder accumulates. Black Walder's grandmother was a Royce, very possibly Myranda Royce's great-aunt.

2. Harry dies at the tournament OR Myranda Royce tells Bolton-Frey axis of evil (Redfort-Waynwood) that Sansa is in the Vale to get rid of her competition for Harry.

3. Lannister power collapses in KL. Myrcella or Tommen may still be on the Throne, but Cersei is destroyed or preoccupied by Aegon and Euron and Sansa is free to emerge from hiding.

4. Sansa is given to Black Walder to quiet rebellion in the Riverlands.

5. Black Walder dies. Sansa marries LF. Pair secures control of Riverlands, Vale and North. Sansa kills LF.

Edited by Hippocras
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Every so often I poke in on these forums and I find a gem that I had never thought about. Brienne in the vale? BRILLIANT! Especially with the show Brienne/Sansa arc going the way it is. I know they are changing things but those things can only be changed ever so slightly as the ending/major strokes will remain the same.

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Shadrich has no clear way to get himself and Sansa out of the Vale. He cannot go through the mountains as the passes are already closed (and it would be utterly stupid to take that road without a strong escort anyway). This would leave only a way by ship, and he is hundreds of leagues away from the coast. Even if he could reach a port he would also have to chance upon a ready ship - which could be possible if he works with Varys/Illyrio - but he cannot possibly hope to get her from the Gates to a port without being caught days before he arrives there. It just doesn't make any sense logistically. Now, if the gang goes to Gulltown or closer to the coast in future chapters things might change and real opportunities for such a thing may arise. But right now they are effectively impossible.

Not that I believe Shadrich wants to abduct Sansa. I really hope those whole abduction plot lines are over now.

On Littlefinger's motivation regarding Sansa:

We should note that Petyr already wanted to marry Sansa once - back after Ned was disgraced (Cersei remembers that in ADwD). I don't think he has lost that wish/desire. While Sansa is still Alayne, his daughter, he may be able to keep his desire in check but I really don't see him actually giving Sansa Stark's hand away in marriage. Especially not to Harrold Hardyng. That would be my main reason for the assumption that he may have 'other plans' for Harry.

I'm also not inclined to believe he wants to have sex with Sansa prior to their marriage. That would spoil the fun as he cannot want her to deliver his bastard - if he actually cares about fathering a dynasty. With a character like him that's far from clear. He may actually only care becoming a great man himself not necessarily the father of a dynasty, although that would be the usual mindset of a nobleman. And he is very aware of his own heritage.

Surprise guests:

I doubt that Sandor or Brienne/Jaime will show up in the Vale. It seems as if major stuff is going to happen in the Riverlands (which is why I think Brynden Tully is not going to pay the Vale a visit, either), and I see Jaime/Brienne returning to/be drawn into events in KL rather than someplace else. And Sandor should be drawn to KL, too, when he learns about the abomination his brother has become.

chance we see the blackfish at this?

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I think BF could show up, less as a participant in the melee, and more behind the scenes to verify Alayne's identity. With his extended ties to the Vale, how "close" is he to the best "swordsman" in the land in Lyn Corbray? Are they familiar?

Also wondering, regardless of Mad Mouse's ultimate plan, does he represent that Varys' intelligence can reach the Vale and, thus, his gold could influence the likes of Lyn Corbray?

I'm also into speculating that LF is somehow linked to/is the Great Other, is in league with Crow's Eye in some way, and that Harrenhal is part of his plan with Crow's Eye possibly wanting to resurrect Harren the Black's Iron Born rule of the castle.

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Also wondering, regardless of Mad Mouse's ultimate plan, does he represent that Varys' intelligence can reach the Vale and, thus, his gold could influence the likes of Lyn Corbray?

The Mad Mouse is entirely irrelevant for that question. He doesn't work for Varys. Varys most likely doesn't even know that he exists. He just knows that there is a public bounty on Sansa and wants to collect, that's it.

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The Mad Mouse is entirely irrelevant for that question. He doesn't work for Varys. Varys most likely doesn't even know that he exists. He just knows that there is a public bounty on Sansa and wants to collect, that's it.

I think it's relevant. MM knows there's a bounty re: Sansa and he is in the Vale. It's analogous to the bounty put on Tyrion. Sure, Sansa is a lot more difficult to identify than Tyrion, but eventually, the information can find it's way to Varys.

As the news/rumor of a bounty for Sansa creeps closer to her actual location, the odds of someone identifying her increase. That's the point I'm making.

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My impressions/theories :

Harry the Heir + Sansa :

HH looks like some pick up artist having mastered the "neg" strategy, starting by calling Alayne "bastard" (as well as the bragging strategy speaking about his past conquests).

She counter-attacks with her owns mocking his excuses and asking him about his bastard.

IMO both seduction attemps worked and each is now asking him/herself what he can do to seduce the other (and in a more sincere way than most people here seem to think).

HH may look like an awful womanizer to modern readers I don't think he's some kind of sadist. If they get to have time for that may make a lovely couple for a while, sadly I don't think HtH is set to live that long (nor Sansa to stay that long in the Vale).

Littlefinger :

Looks like he did exactly what he mocked Cersei for, forgetting that some pieces sometimes refuse to do what you want or tend to move by themselves (MadMouse, Lyn Corbray, SweetRobin and his Winged Knights, even Myranda, nearly every piece around seem ready to blow his plans and Petyr doesn't look like he cares focused he is on a bigger picture involving food trade, realm scale projets or other secret plans).

It may end very badly for him (or at least will force him to change his plans.)

The Winged Knights and SR :

Making knights swear an oath to protect someone you are poisoning may not be the best idea LF ever had.

What if SR has an attack and the maester reveal to these sworn guards that LF/Alayne insisted he was given sweetmilk against his advice ?

Making knights swear an oath to serve someone who want to marry a girl you are promising to someone else, may not be a good idea either.

What if SR uses his knights to do something against HtH ? Won't he be able to find the local Mandon Moore to get rid of his rival ?

Only positive point for LF is the WK can only matter after they are chosen, at the end of the tourney, and the action is likely to unfold before.

But if everything work until their nomination, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends a bad move.

(would be fun after all the digs at knighthood if LF fail due to his lack of belief in chivalry, due to those knightguards taking their oaths seriously)

Lyn Corbray :

If Petyr has any plan involving Lyn he will probably botch it.

If the theory where LF is fixing the tourney is true, I see him having been asked to lose against HtH, and killing/maiming him instead (yeah I'm not really confident HtH will have a bright future).

May also decide to take his pay in little boys, this one being SR of course.


A big unknown factor.

Show!Myranda made me wonder if book!Myranda could be a jealous antagonist secretely more interested in HtH than in LF.

Add the old theories about her having an idea of Sansa true identity she may well decide to use to get rid of her.

It's another piece with potential moves LF+Sansa haven't seen coming.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if she's just Myranda some young noble girl liking to gossip, and the showrunners just used her name to troll the readers.

Lord Declarants

I'm not a fan of the Great Vale Conspiracy theory, as I don't believe in high lords succeding to plot against LF without him realising.

He may have forgoten to make sure small pieces like Lyn Corbray, MadMouse or Myranda are under control, or failed to take SR feelings for Alayne/HtH into account, but it's precisely because he sees the danger coming from Yohn Royce side.

That doesn't mean that once the small pieces will have ruined LF plans the LD won't add to his problems by accusing him to be responsible.

IMO, if something like SR or HtH biting the dust happen, LF will be forced to play his card sooner than he wanted, revealing Sansa (eventually getting a free pass due to her support like in show ! LF trial).

That's if Sansa is still there of course because there is also...


Likely will make an attempt to kidnapp Alayne before the end of the tourney.

No idea if it will succeed or be just an occasion to make something happen (like Sansa identity being revealed when he is interrogated,.or someone being injured/killed while stopping him - may be one more potential death for HtH, if MM attacks happen when he's out with Sansa for some intimacy- ; or even for LF if it would be a bit anticlimatic).

If it does, their only route out of the Vale will be through the mountains. I eventually see some encounters with the clans there. But the most interesting thing that may happen if the story follow this route , is Sansa reaching the Riverlands (be it with MM or with clansmen protecting the Imp's wife), with LF pursuing them, and him being finally reunited with Lady Stoneheart (which I think is the definitively best candidate to kill him - Ok it's far fetched considering Brienne, Jaime, will kill LSH before, and she'll also be busy with weddings).

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What if Sweet Robin makes Harry the Heir a Rainbow knight? Is it like the kingsguard meaning he would not be allowed to marry Sansa/Alayne or be allowed to inherit?

They serve for 3 years and aren't allowed to marry in this time iirc. They still can inherit I think. So it would delay the wedding.

ps : thinking about it LF has no reason to want that HtH becomes one, except if he lied to Sansa about his plan, or wants to wait for the spring to reveal her and act (which is likely to take long to come).

Edited by Lord Freypie
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Would be interesting if the "mystery knight" follows a similar path of The Mystery Knight and Aegon shows up.

Aegon is not going to show up. He has a war going on in the Reach and possibly KL, he cannot afford to make an idle voyage to the Vale. There are plenty of marriage candidates for him in the south, besides the one his mentors want him to marry (Dany).

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Book Sansa is very, very coveted by LF for himself. However, he cannot deny that she is potentially worth a lot to him so long as she is the sole heir to the North and Winterfell. There are though, several obstacles that must be removed in the books

1- she is wanted for assasination of a King.

Answer - The current regime must be removed for this warrant to be removed = Aegon VI must win the iron Throne

2- she is married to Tyrion Lannister but there is an "out clause"

answer - Tyrion never consummated the marriage and Sansa (as best to everyone's knowledge) has an intact hymen/maidenhead, the High Septon can undo the marriage pending problem 1 is removed

3- For #1 to be accomplished, it is very likely that Aegon will need Vale military support to acheive this, all the while, Sansa cannot be married until #1 and #2 are completed.

answer - If you are LF, the North might already be in Rickon Stark's hands so you cannot march the Vale up there but you may be able to help take the Riverlands and KL and marry Sansa to a king rather than Harry the heir or even Sweet Robin, if he wants to marry her off to anyone other than himself at all. Also, if Sansa gets word that her family is in charge of Winterfell, what power does he have over Sansa anymore? His being an uncle through marriage is flimsy as her brother Rickon and his regent (maybe Manderly or Osha or Davos) would have dominion over Sansa. A lot can happen here, not withstanding the implications of "The Mad Mouse" on the hunt but unless Sansa "complies" with LF wishes, she has more power than she currently realizes, in the books that is.

I think Sansa will be Aegon VI Queen.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone
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Something just struck me about Sansa's dialogue with SweetRobin, when he tells her he wants to marry her, she says that she cannot because she is a bastard and cannot marry him as he is a Lord. Well, Littlefinger plans on Sansa (so he says) coming out to marry Harry the Heir AS Sansa Stark and not Allayne. If she is free and able to come out as Sansa than SweetRobin can marry Sansa, his first cousin, a high trueborn fit for Lord of the Vale, who he currently thinks is Allayne. I do no know if or how this plays out but the end of the sample chapter, It looks like Lord Arryn is about to do something. He does seem to care/puppy love for her.

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