Wouter Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) So, regardless of what pairings you want to happen, I don't see how you can argue for Tyrion/Sansa as a potentially positive development for Sansa (more political power and fun court life) and GRRM's endgame without dissecting and exploring who he has become. If you said Tyrion/Sansa will happen and they will both be more miserable then ever, I would agree that is definitely possible! But the idea that they will be partners in power like "Alysanne and Jaeharys" and that he will "yearn for her love", is something I disagree with. Not that is a bad opinion, it isn't, I just disagree. The reason the rape is important isn't because I think someone will catch him and geld him, but because I believe if he was alone with Sansa he might try to rape her. And I don't see how they could have any semblance of a happy marriage if he rapes her. [...] So I suppose, I just want to know how these character development effect your understanding/belief in Tyrion/Sansa as a political team/potentially successful marriage.People tend to view the potential continuation of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in black or white terms: either both would be as miserable as they were during the brief time they were married in KL, or they would suddenly come to marry for love. There are other possibilities, though. I'm thinking more in the line of a classic Westerosi arranged marriage; both families (Dany for Tyrion and Jon or Bran for Sansa, IMO - though Sansa could negotiate for herself, much like Dany did with Hizdahr) come to some sort of agreement that it would be in their interests for the marriage to continue. This would be different from the actual marriage because that was an entirely one-way arrangement where the Lannisters forced Sansa to marry without even informing her or her family beforehand, with the whole thing designed to be a Lannister powergrab in Winterfell. Presumably, an arranged marriage would have benefits of some form for the Starks/the north (or Riverlands and Vale, even) as well. I also think that Sansa would have acted differently in KL if she didn't have Dontos' escape plan. She could afford to keep Tyrion at a safe distance because it was only for a few weeks. If she had seen no escape, I suspect she would have seriously considered to either kill herself or to make an attempt to make the best of it while influencing Tyrion as much as she could to go against his own family. As for Tyrion raping Sansa; if the marriage is renewed/confirmed, presumably it would not be to go back to the farce that it was in the first place; it seems unlikely to me that Tyrion would accept a continued marriage without sex, better to annul the whole thing then. If Tyrion can get sex the normal way, it would seem unlikely that he would jeopardise that with rape (even in the sense of Robert raping Cersei). As you say, we don't know what the author will write. That goes for Tyrion's future state of mind as well. I do note that the show has been whitewashing him though - one effect of which is that his relationship with Sansa is quite a bit better on the show - and one possible reason for that is to not upset the TV audience if he would end up triumphant in the end. I also note that the author has some pretty f*cked up marriages turn into relative successes: Dany and Drogo is an example from the books (considering it started with him buying and then raping Dany) and from the world book, the marriage between Orys Baratheon and the daughter of the last Storm King was striking. The last one started the Baratheon line as we know it in ASOIAF; I wonder how Argella felt about being married to the man who succesfully invaded her lands, who killed her father and who took her captive. Allthough the Dany/Hizdahr marriage was not succesfull in the end, it is a good example of an arranged marriage entered for mutual gain though Dany did not want to marry him (and probably vice-versa). It is a bit different though, because Dany negotiated for her own hand and she also had more power in the marriage than Hizdahr did. Both in show and books, Sansa has shown a willingness to enter in arranged marriages at the behest of LF. The chapter being discussed sees her playing alone with LF's scheme. So the concept of marriage for political gain is not lost on her. :agree: I agree with this completely! I know I will sound redundant if I write this, but no one wants to take Sansa south in the story except Shadrich so he can collect on the bounty on her head. Sansa wants to go North. LF want her to go North (with HtH and an army from the Vale). Brienne wants to bring her to family (that means North). Jaime would bring her as far from KL as possible. Ned died wanting his daughters to go back North. Could Shadrich bring her south again? I guess he could, yes. But I see her going north because that is where her power originates (with loyal vassal lords and her brothers) since if she is in the North being a Stark will protect her, anywhere else in the kingdom and being a Stark/Tyrion's wife/accused of regicide will be a one-way trip to the gallows. And the North is where all the major characters appear to be headed for the final conflicts.I agree with Colonel Green that book-Sansa will likely do her politicking in the Vale; it's the place where she's being "trained" (much like Bran and Arya at their respective places) and where she has her own supporting cast of characters. When Dany/Tyrion arrive in Westeros, things will be shaken up and who knows how things will progress. Well, Martin hopefully, and probably D&D and Cogman plus Hill, but not us. I think Sansa may go back to KL at some point (if it is still standing then), but by that time Cersei would probably have been long removed from power. Dany had a dream in ASOS that IMO indicates she will fight the Others, possibly as far south as the Trident: That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.Though Dany is thinking about Robert, his host was obviously not armored in ice => this indicates Others. If Dany may possibly fight the Others in the Riverlands, then not everyone has to assemble in the north in order to impact that fight. Edited June 29, 2015 by Wouter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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