[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Harry the Hair]

8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No it looks nothing like that, how the hell does that benefit LF? What is best for LF is everyone is happy families until Sansa takes in Harry and they're married and then Robert can die tragically, quietly and blamelessly.

Except maybe he has no intention of marrying her to Harry and a happy family is exactly what he doesn’t want since it will definitely cost him his lord Protector status?

[chrisdaw]

12 minutes ago, Harry the Hair said:

Except maybe he has no intention of marrying her to Harry and a happy family is exactly what he doesn’t want since it will definitely cost him his lord Protector status?

Yeah sorry I wasn't aware you were making posts with the assumption everyone understood your extra-textual out of nowhere theorised motivations for LF. My bad.

[The Bard of Banefort]

34 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No it looks nothing like that, how the hell does that benefit LF? What is best for LF is everyone is happy families until Sansa takes in Harry and they're married and then Robert can die tragically, quietly and blamelessly.

The ignoring of Robert and his ideas about Harry is what's going to come to fuck over someone, maybe Sansa herself but more likely LF, it is a parallel to everyone ignoring what LF was feeding Joffrey in KL which lead to Joff executing Ned and ruining everyone's plans.

It's a question of if the person feeding Robert (I'll take Lyn for now) really has a thought out long term plan or if they just have an axe to grind with LF and are throwing spanners into the works wherever they may to fuck with him.

I really hope we start to see LF’s luck run out in TWOW. He has so much plot armor that it’s ridiculous he’s even made it this far.

[chrisdaw]

Sansa and LF's solution to the inconvenience of Robert being a person/child with feelings, thoughts, voice and behaviour runs back to how Tywin immediately dealt with the same issue with Joff.

Quote

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

"Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace," Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off. "Ser Kevan, I can see the king is tired. Please see him safely back to his bedchamber. Pycelle, perhaps some gentle potion to help His Grace sleep restfully?"

"Dreamwine, my lord?"

"I don't want any dreamwine," Joffrey insisted.

Lord Tywin would have paid more heed to a mouse squeaking in the corner. "Dreamwine will serve. Cersei, Tyrion, remain."

Having Sansa/LF parallel Tywin in this shows two things, competency and dubious morality.

In that same scene Tywin immediately hits the nail on the head as to what should be the underlying issue with Joffrey,

Quote

 

"Father, I am sorry," Cersei said, when the door was shut. "Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . ."

"There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid. 'A strong king acts boldly?' Who told him that?"

"Not me, I promise you," said Cersei. "Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . ."

 

Who is in his ear telling him this? Who is influencing him? Cersei says Robert B and Tyrion backs it up and it seems the likely answer, Robert's dead so that's that. Of course it wasn't Robert and we'll find out soon enough who it was, but that's beside my immediate point, which is who is in the kid's ear matters, as GRRM has the ever competent Tywin immediately identify.

Quote

 

“I hate that Harry,” Sweetrobin said when she was gone. “He calls me cousin, but he’s just waiting for me to die so he can take the Eyrie. He thinks I don’t know, but I do.”

“Your lordship should not believe such nonsense,” Alayne said. “I’m sure Ser Harrold loves you well.” And if the gods are good, he will love me too. Her tummy gave a little flutter.

“He doesn’t,” Lord Robert insisted. “He wants my father’s castle, that’s all, so he pretends.” The boy clutched the blanket to his pimply chest. “I don’t want you to marry him, Alayne. I am the Lord of the Eyrie, and I forbid it.” He sounded as if he were about to cry. “You should marry me instead. We could sleep in the same bed every night, and you could read me stories.”

 

And here Sansa is doing a bit of a Cersei in not being alert to the danger of someone getting in under her and framing Robert's opinions/thoughts. In addition to being inexperienced Sansa is perhaps too preoccupied with her own task, tummy flutters and all, to pay enough attention. LF should know, but probably he's left Robert's care almost entirely to Sansa and the maester.

The way it plays out could start the chain of realisation in Sansa that leads to her understanding what LF did. Now what Littlefinger did is one part established and one part theory,

1. Established is that he is the savage giant of Sansa's WF scene. He deliberately brought WF into the WOT5Ks by having Lysa poison Jon Arryn and send Catelyn the secret message blaming the Lannisters.
2. Theory is he had Joffrey's ear and manipulated him into executing Ned. We'll find out that the "soft hearts of women" and "treason shall never go unpunished" were LF's words, put directly into Joffrey's head.

Now if something comes of the ideas in Robert's head about Harry, like Robert orchestrates Harry's end (perhaps an accident at the tournament), when Sansa does a retrospective of what happened she may see a pattern in what happened with Joffrey, leading her to piece together what LF did.

And LF's undoing may come because he isn't paying attention to the raising of the child whose care he is entirely responsible for and should be his primary focus. And maybe due to a treacherous act passed off as an accident at a tournament.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa and LF's solution to the inconvenience of Robert being a person/child with feelings, thoughts, voice and behaviour runs back to how Tywin immediately dealt with the same issue with Joff.

Having Sansa/LF parallel Tywin in this shows two things, competency and dubious morality.

In that same scene Tywin immediately hits the nail on the head as to what should be the underlying issue with Joffrey,

Who is in his ear telling him this? Who is influencing him? Cersei says Robert B and Tyrion backs it up and it seems the likely answer, Robert's dead so that's that. Of course it wasn't Robert and we'll find out soon enough who it was, but that's beside my immediate point, which is who is in the kid's ear matters, as GRRM has the ever competent Tywin immediately identify.

And here Sansa is doing a bit of a Cersei in not being alert to the danger of someone getting in under her and framing Robert's opinions/thoughts. In addition to being inexperienced Sansa is perhaps too preoccupied with her own task, tummy flutters and all, to pay enough attention. LF should know, but probably he's left Robert's care almost entirely to Sansa and the maester.

The way it plays out could start the chain of realisation in Sansa that leads to her understanding what LF did. Now what Littlefinger did is one part established and one part theory,

1. Established is that he is the savage giant of Sansa's WF scene. He deliberately brought WF into the WOT5Ks by having Lysa poison Jon Arryn and send Catelyn the secret message blaming the Lannisters.
2. Theory is he had Joffrey's ear and manipulated him into executing Ned. We'll find out that the "soft hearts of women" and "treason shall never go unpunished" were LF's words, put directly into Joffrey's head.

Now if something comes of the ideas in Robert's head about Harry, like Robert orchestrates Harry's end (perhaps an accident at the tournament), when Sansa does a retrospective of what happened she may see a pattern in what happened with Joffrey, leading her to piece together what LF did.

And LF's undoing may come because he isn't paying attention to the raising of the child whose care he is entirely responsible for and should be his primary focus. And maybe due to a treacherous act passed off as an accident at a tournament.

While I'm open to the idea that LF encouraged Joffrey to execute Ned, I took this scene to mean that Cersei is the one who told Joffrey that a strong king acts boldly, and now she's trying to pin it on Robert. Tyrion only backed her up to needle his father and get in another dig about Joffrey's (and therefore Cersei's) stupidity:

Quote

"The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert." Tyrion didn't want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

 

[chrisdaw]

16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

While I'm open to the idea that LF encouraged Joffrey to execute Ned, I took this scene to mean that Cersei is the one who told Joffrey that a strong king acts boldly, and now she's trying to pin it on Robert. Tyrion only backed her up to needle his father and get in another dig about Joffrey's (and therefore Cersei's) stupidity:

I don't agree because it's all going to be from the same source and the rest sure wasn't coming from Cersei.

Quote

But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished.

. . .

"You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."

Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.

Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.

"Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

Someone understands and is using how Joff idolises his father. I think of the conversations as having gone something like;

"your betrothed and mother will ask you to spare him, with their soft womanly hearts. And maybe you should if gentle is the type of king you wish to be. Myself, I always liked the way your father ruled, a true strong leader, never did treason go unpunished whilst he was king."

"Your grandfather has returned. A great man to be sure, but I do wonder . . . no never mind I shouldn't say it. Ok if you insist . . . it was said during Aerys's reign that Ser Tywin Lannister thought himself the real king, and went about ruling the realm without informing the king of many a decision he ought to have known. Your own father would have none of that and sent him away during his reign. Remember it was your father who truly won this throne of yours, he killed Prince Rhaegar while your grandfather hid under Casterly Rock. A strong king was your father, he acted boldly, he didn't just talk like your grandfather."

Edited January 31, 2022 by chrisdaw

[The Bard of Banefort]

Has Cersei’s Walk of Shame happened yet at the time of this tourney? 

[Harry the Hair]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:56 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

While I'm open to the idea that LF encouraged Joffrey to execute Ned, I took this scene to mean that Cersei is the one who told Joffrey that a strong king acts boldly, and now she's trying to pin it on Robert. Tyrion only backed her up to needle his father and get in another dig about Joffrey's (and therefore Cersei's) stupidity:

 

I always read it as LF manipulating Joffrey in to executing Ned by reminding him of his father's brash nature. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Harry the Hair

[The Bard of Banefort]

I finally found this quote from George from way back in 2002 about how Littlefinger was going to run into trouble in the Riverlands because he doesn't have an army: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2002/08

Assuming this is still relevant twenty years later (damn), I'm wondering what this will mean for TWOW? It's also interesting that GRRM mentions here how Emmon Frey, Genna's husband, aspires to be the lord paramount of the Riverlands. 

[chrisdaw]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I finally found this quote from George from way back in 2002 about how Littlefinger was going to run into trouble in the Riverlands because he doesn't have an army: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2002/08

Assuming this is still relevant twenty years later (damn), I'm wondering what this will mean for TWOW? It's also interesting that GRRM mentions here how Emmon Frey, Genna's husband, aspires to be the lord paramount of the Riverlands. 

It's interesting and does suggest LF will outlive their stay at the Vale, but it's hard to take much literally given it's a report and not his own words. It could have been something like LF rules in name but without an army he would run into trouble pressing his claim in the Riverlands.

My main take away from that report is come the second dance when the realm splits and neighbour and family bitterly fight neighbour and family (as a constant point is made about happening in the first), Riverrun and the Twins are going to fight on opposite sides.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:57 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sansa dancing with every notable man at the feast, and many of them trying to hit on her beforehand, reminds me a bit of Ashara at Harrenhal. I doubt this tourney will end the same for Sansa as it did Ashara, but George does seem to be setting her up as this bewitching young woman who catches the eye of every man she meets.

Nice.