[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Avlonnic]

Lol. I seriously ship Leaf and Bran.

That's what I would call a Spring-Autumn romance (possibly even Spring-Winter.) Besides, Meera owns Bran's heart for the time being. Bran and Arya are crafted with a COTF bent (tree-climbing squirrels) while Sansa, it is clear, has always been the Andal, Faith of the Seven, Southron belle...duty-bound like her mother. I am hoping to see more falcon/bat imagery around her story arc in the next book...

[Mithras]

I don't think Sansa will be kidnapped and brought back to KL by Shadrich - or, if it does happen, it is bad writing, and here is why I think so:

1) Why should Sansa trust Shadrich? She learned that lesson with Dontos. (Who, btw, I think sincerely wanted to help her on some level at the same time he was in the pay of LF. I think Dontos trusted LF too well himself - LF probably told him, "I'm a dear, close friend of Sansa's mother and I only want the best for Sansa!") I don't think she's going to be sneaking off to meet Shadrich in the godswood, or wherever, anytime soon.

2) The circumstances are against it. As I and others have pointed out, it's not easy to sneak people into or out of the Gates of the Moon, especially now with LF having Gulltown's ports closed. The reason the Great Spring Sickness did not affect the Vale was that it is easy to cut off access in and out of it.

3) LF got Sansa out of KL by taking advantage of the pandemonium surrounding Joffrey's death, and he had help (Dontos, a boat, etc.). Sansa was unwatched and unguarded. "Alayne" is surrounded by Petyr, Sweetrobin, Myranda, and, soon, eight Winged Knights.

4) Speaking of which - if "Alayne" disappears, the tantrum Sweetrobin will throw will be heard all the way in Dorne. He is going to command those Winged Knights of his to "FIND ALAYNE! OR I WILL MAKE YOU FLY!"

5) Yet Another Hostage In KL Arc would be repetitive and, frankly, bad writing. We've been there and done that and the plot needs to move forward.

6) The only people who are interested in trying Sansa for regicide are dead (Tywin, Kevan) or imprisoned and disgraced (Cersei). I don't think the Tyrells want a trial, as they are too busy with rescuing Margaery, dealing with Ironborn, and propping up their own rule in the capital. If they want Sansa, it's to get her to marry Willas for real this time; as far as they know, she's still the heiress to Winterfell and potentially Riverrun as well. Shadrich's going to be mighty disappointed if he expects Lannister gold in exchange for Sansa.

If Shadrich is in the pay of Varys, then Sansa is not headed to Cersei and KL, but to wherever Aegon is, possibly for another Stark/Martell/Targaryen love triangle (oh please noooooo). Or, possibly, to Highgarden to marry Willas, if Varys is trying to get in the Tyrells' good books. GRRM has said we'll see Highgarden in TWOW - maybe it will be through Sansa.

Crossing my fingers for no backtracking to KL for Sansa...

Since I believe she will decide to go with Shadrich just after she slays LF when he tries to rape her, many of your points will be invalid.

1) With a dead LP in the room, she will not have much options. The cronies of LF will certainly not like the death of LF because it will deprive them of income. So, they will have no sympathy for Sansa. Besides, Sansa lied to them a lot. None of the Vale Lords will have much reason to trust her at that point, or at least Sansa will believe it so. She didnot trust them either, that is why she lied about Marillion.

2) I already argued why they can get out of the Vale secretly.

3) After the death of LF, a similar pandemonium will happen, especially if Harry is dead too.

4) Winged Knights will fly.

5) "To go forward you must go back." This time everything will be different. Sansa has to overcome her fear of Cersei and the only way to do that is to face her.

6) Sansa is too dangerous and precious to be left alone. Varys can make good use of her and Varys is in KL. Cersei not only offers gold but lordship as well.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^If LF dies, Sansa has the lord of the Vale in her pocket, and if Harry is still alive she has the heir too, that at least buys her a chance to explain everything to Bronze Yhon/Nestor. I cannot understand why you think Sansa would voluntarily leave. Everyone likes her, why would they all just turn on her because they found out her true identity?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

^If LF dies, Sansa has the lord of the Vale in her pocket, and if Harry is still alive she has the heir too, that at least buys her a chance to explain everything to Bronze Yhon/Nestor. I cannot understand why you think Sansa would voluntarily leave. Everyone likes her, why would they all just turn on her because they found out her true identity?

Yes. Many of the Vale lords will have known Ned Stark (who was fostered in the Vale), and they have no reason to love the Lannisters. In fact, most of them wanted to enter the war on Robb Stark's side against the Lannisters - who they believe killed Jon Arryn. If "Alayne" is unmasked as Sansa, the first reaction would be to shield her from the evil Lannisters. "Ned's little girl" and all that.

We really don't know how many of the lords are truly won over by LF, either. The feast at the Gates of the Moon seems an obvious indication that he's buying their allegiance - and there are so many warnings about sellswords and sellsails turning on their employers once the money runs out, I don't think LF's cash is going to buy him immunity forever.

[Colonel Green]

1) With a dead LP in the room, she will not have much options.

What about blaming his death on someone else, seeing as there'd be no particular reason to suspect her of the killing, unless somebody actually arrived immediately after, in which case they would clearly see the signs of a violent assault on her and have reason to believe her story? (and incidentally, the idea that the story with Sansa and LF is just going to end with him losing control and trying to rape her is so ridiculously anticlimactic that it's not, to me, at all a credible ending for a story that has been all about political intrigue and Sansa's conflicting perceptions and attitudes)

I especially don't see why Sansa would decide to go with some random hedge knight over chancing with people who've actually demonstrated some attachment to her family in the past.

5) "To go forward you must go back." This time everything will be different. Sansa has to overcome her fear of Cersei and the only way to do that is to face her.

Cersei is not the main villain in Sansa's story, nor even a particularly prominent part of it after a certain point. After the Battle of the Blackwater they hardly interact at all; those chapters said pretty much everything there was to say on that dynamic.

And, again, everything will not be different. Cersei would have Sansa executed immediately.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Colonel Green

[Ghosts Lunch]

Catelyn already gave Brienne two missions. The first was find Sansa, the second take the sword and kill the kingslayer. There is no reason to expect Catelyn to give Brienne any more missions.

Depends if she specifically used the term "Kingslayer" or Jaimie Lannister

Kingslayer can just as easily be a reference in Briennes mind to Stannis (or rather his shadow) killing Renly

Indeed this will make sense, as Brienne learns of Jaimies act of honour in the bathtubs of Harrenhall of all places while Stannis killing Renly via Bloodmagic was devoid of honour

So Oathkeeper IMO relates to Jaimie fetching Sansa out of the Vale on behalf of LS, and then to fulfilling Briennes oath to killing Stannis - The "Kingslayer"

Just on Alayne, my thoughts have evolved

Basically people have whinged about lack of Sandor, what they need to understand is "Direwolf with bat wings". Sandor became a substitute for Lady, but like Arya and Cats this chapter was about setting up the link to Bats. In this case the Bat or winged creature is Sweetrobin and the chapter points out his obsessive loyalty to her (almost like a dog or warg animal).

From the perspective Sweetrobin is an anti-Bran, we have to think back to the dead Bats in the CoTF cave up north as clue

Long story short people have to consider the term Gravedigger is obviously ominous with death also

Long story short my thoughts have evolved Sansa/Alayne is slowly ascending to becoming some kind of Death Queen based in Harrenhall and presiding over the combined Black Kingdom of Vassal Kingdom of the Vale led by anti-Tommen Sweetrobin and the destroyed Riverlands (Blackfish is the clue linking the two areas, but the fact Lady died in place of Nymeria which was named after a Queen is symbolic).

Obviously Sweetrobin will rule in the Vale and Sansa will put those hoarded food resources to good use, Blackfish out of Riverrun where Nymeria pack which indirectly spawned out of the death of Lady will act as a power projection and the Gravedigger will do her bidding in Harrenhall, probably fetching the sacrifices and disposing of the bodies etc as part of her blood sacrifices involving her own Queens blood- all done silently too which will be a cool twist on his new vows

I have been cynical of Sansa taking over LS role in the show but given I am now starting to think of Lady Stoneheart as a precursor to Alayne Stone the death Queen I would be more understanding

There's some larger issues, the Black Dragon head turning up on that island and the link to the Gravedigger, plus black hair by the fires (Blackfyre), plus the Lemons for the Lemoncake coming from Dorne are all hinting at this new Black Kingdom being aligned with the Blackfyres/Dornish.

I am highly confident now that it will be Sansa who will be the "younger and more beautiful Queen" of Cerseis prophecy, I reckon Sansa will kill Myrcella, quite fitting that Myrcella the subject of a Queenmaker plot is killed by a Black Death Queen. From this perspective if Jaimie does fetch Sansa out of the Vale in WoW and the North in season 6, having him do the same for Myrcella in Dorne is a good thematic nod to him toing and froing between Kingslayer and Jaimie, Cersei and Brienne, Princess Myrcella and Princess Sansa (she is Robbs sister remember) match up which is why Sansa is fitting

I suspect Aegon will get Tommen, the one-eared Cat and the notion of Rhaenys having warged it suggests she and by extension the Targs is symbolically stalking Tommens position when ser Pounce chased the "bad cat" away, implies Aegon will march on KL before long

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ghosts Lunch

[Tharvot]

We can speculate for days on what we think will happen, but one thing seems pretty certain:

The Mad Mouse is hot on Sansa's trail and most likely knows who she is. His little quote about being a hedge knight when Alayne mentions the melee is pretty telling:

“A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

A not so subtle clue that he knows who is in front of him. How he tries to remove Sansa from the Vale and the chances of his success are up for debate...until the book comes out of course. Perhaps he will gain the favor of Lyn Corbray, who also has need of some coin. It's not inconceivable that LF has been double crossed by someone he has paid off.

[ADanceWithCats]

A not so subtle clue that he knows who is in front of him. How he tries to remove Sansa from the Vale and the chances of his success are up for debate...until the book comes out of course. Perhaps he will gain the favor of Lyn Corbray, who also has need of some coin. It's not inconceivable that LF has been double crossed by someone he has paid off.

There's also the other possibility: he'll serve as proof of Sansa's identity. Sansa reveals herself => Shadrich says, "yes, actually I was sent out from KL to find this girl, this is she".

[ChillyPolly]

Depends if she specifically used the term "Kingslayer" or Jaimie Lannister

Kingslayer can just as easily be a reference in Briennes mind to Stannis (or rather his shadow) killing Renly

LS did use the term "kingslayer". The word Brienne shouted ("sword") represented the oath LS demanded of her ("take the sword and kill the kingslayer").

And yes, this does echo her earlier oath to take a different sword (Renly's) and kill a different kingslayer (Stannis).

[Colonel Green]

There's also the other possibility: he'll serve as proof of Sansa's identity. Sansa reveals herself => Shadrich says, "yes, actually I was sent out from KL to find this girl, this is she".

Shadrich has never met Sansa before, so I'm not sure what proof he could offer, other than that he thinks she's Sansa. There are people in the Vale who've actually met Sansa and/or her mother, who would be able to form much more reliable opinions on the matter.

[cassidyaj]

Shadrich has never met Sansa before, so I'm not sure what proof he could offer, other than that he thinks she's Sansa. There are people in the Vale who've actually met Sansa and/or her mother, who would be able to form much more reliable opinions on the matter.

I agree. Plus, he is a sellsword... So people may take what he says as a truth or lie as it best fits their purposes. And he would lose the opportunity to take her back to KL as I am sure some one more noble would do it himself or put a stop to allowing a gently born maiden/noblewoman from being taken by someone such as him.

[HexMachina]

Shadrich has never met Sansa before, so I'm not sure what proof he could offer, other than that he thinks she's Sansa. There are people in the Vale who've actually met Sansa and/or her mother, who would be able to form much more reliable opinions on the matter.

I was kind of hoping we'd get to see Willas Wode again, if only because he offers a connection to Harrenhal

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

snip

:lmao:

And then the Aliens land.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I have to agree that Sansa being returned to KL makes no sense narratively at all, so If Shadrach is intending on abducting her, he will obviously fail. There is just no story for her in KL.

Her future lies in the North. It is clear that she will be the one to kill LF and I think personally that the Snowcastle scene is direct foreshadowing. IE: She'll remove his head at Winterfell and mount it on a spike.

So her going anywhere south just doesn't make sense to me. Not when her story arc is about gaining agency, learning how to play the game, using information to her advantage & becoming powerful in her own right. Being at the Mercy of Cersei, and frankly dead on arrival if she ever got her hands on Sansa again, is a dead end thematically.

Again work with what is in the text, She is more confident, has built relationships in the Vale, wants to go along with LF's plan because she wants to return North, but doesn't fully trust him, is aware that he desires her and is beginning to use that to her advantage, She is developing her own ideas, and managing SR whom she does not want to kill, but she doesn't seem to yet grasp that LF intends to have the boy die, the dots are not connected yet. We also know from this chapter that She is ever more beautiful, that many men desire her, that Harry is falling into that camp, that Randa also wants harry, that Randa may be forced into another marriage she doesn't want, that there will be a winged guard, that Lyn Corbray is not for certain loyal, but has exceptional martial prowess, and that Shadrach probably knows who she is and may enter the melee, where it looks as if Lyn will be the victor, given his skill at arms. We also know LF has displayed largesse, and distributed daggers, is flattering Harry, and probably rigging the lists so the heir wins a place on the winged guard. We know Sansa whilst following LF's direction has lines she won't cross and wants to make sure the relationship happens on her terms. And that she is well aware that her husband lives and so the marriage is not imminent.

Nothing in here indicates any of the absurd suggestions being made, the only thing which can be speculated on is Ser Shadrich, who may try to abduct her, based on what he said to Brienne and the bag of dragons comment. But as has been pointed out, her story needs to move forwards not back. And her returning to KL is pointless. I would buy the possibility of him taking her forcibly to Varys (because she has absolutely no reason at all to go with him voluntarily) if not for the fact it does not tie in with the themes in her character arc.

Which is mainly breaking away from the idea of princesses in towers helplessly awaiting rescue and swooning at the feet her handsome hero prince/dutifully wedding the hero. Sansa is the antithesis of the princesses as prizes trope, so abducting her in order to have her given to Aegon Targaryen like some fairground prize is the wrong direction to assume her character is going.

Maybe just maybe he takes her to Varys and she outwits him and escapes. But where would that leave our snowcastle prophecy? No she is remaining with LF for the time being, and will be slaying her own savage giant, rather than screaming with delicate femininity whilst her knight in shining armour wins the day.

Edited April 15, 2015 by The Weirwoods Eyes

[Mithras]

Narratively, Sansa becoming a ruling queen and a player does not make sense. It is only seeing things that are not there in Sansa's story. She didnot accomplish anything, she didnot learn anything, she didnot show any light. LF is simply toying with her.

"You are such a little fool" is in fact directed to Sansa Alayne in this chapter.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Mithras

[LongRider]

:lmao:

And then the Aliens land.

Awesome!!!

[LongRider]

Narratively, Sansa becoming a ruling queen and a player does not make sense. It is only seeing things that are not there in Sansa's story. She didnot accomplish anything, she didnot learn anything, she didnot show any light. LF is simply toying with her.

"You are such a little fool" is in fact directed to Sansa Alayne in this chapter.

Becoming a player makes sense, becoming a Queen, no. I don't see Sansa as a Queen, especially not in KL wed to fAgeon, Jon or Tyrion. She is however, a rather high born lady and I do see her becoming Lady Sansa once again. That may well be in WF with Rickon. Sansa becoming more than a pawn makes sense, being the forever hostage does not.

Shadrich may or may not be in the pay of Varys, but either way, mice are common enough creatures that his sigil and mouse identity could be unrelated to Varys. I know, crazy talk, but I still think that he's not Varys's man.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Narratively, Sansa becoming a ruling queen and a player does not make sense. It is only seeing things that are not there in Sansa's story. She did not accomplish anything, she did not learn anything, she did not show any light. LF is simply toying with her.

"You are such a little fool" is in fact directed to Sansa Alayne in this chapter.

Can you please explain how you see her story then? And why? As in, what is there in the actual text to support your reading of her particular arc.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

As for that line "You're such a little fool." I read that as Sansa berating her former self.

Who was such a little fool to believe in happy endings. Which KL cured her of. She no longer dreams of one true love and gallant knights and fair maids. But Robert does.

She is reminded of her former self (who was 11, as Robert is now 8, it is very much a childish belief in fairy tale endings.) And the beration is to herself, for ever having believed.

[Mithras]

Can you please explain how you see her story then? And why? As in, what is there in the actual text to support your reading of her particular arc.

I posted how she will slay LF here and in many places including this very thread, I posted how she will end up in KL and what she can do there.

As for how Sansa's story in KL will be tied up along with other major characters, I posted this in another thread:

Part 1: Jaime kills Cersei

“Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

“Now you sound like Aerys.”

Her nostrils flared. “Guard your tongue, ser.”

“I love you too, sweet sister.”

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me.

She thought of Joffrey, clawing at his neck. In his last moments he had looked to her in desperate appeal, and a sudden memory had stopped her heart; a drop of red blood hissing in a candle flame, a croaking voice that spoke of crowns and shrouds, of death at the hands of the valonqar.

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into her neck. “For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman’s hands are warm,” he said.

“No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better.” Jaime would happily have strangled the woman [sybell Westerling] with her seashell necklace.

Note that a single hand is enough to strangle someone with a necklace. Jaime will strangle Cersei with the Hand's chain necklace.

Part 2: Cersei kills Jaime

I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze.

“Prince Aemon the Dragonknight [parallel to Jaime] cried the day Princess Naerys [parallel to Cersei] wed his brother Aegon,” Sansa Stark said, “and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk died with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound.”

Part 3: Jaime and Cersei must die together

I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.

“My queen,” said Qyburn, “have you... forgotten? Ser Jaime has no sword hand. If he should champion you and lose...”

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it. “He will not lose. Not Jaime. Not with my life at stake.”

“Jaime? Have you had word?”

“None. Cersei, you may need to prepare yourself for—”

“If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me.”

Part 4: Operation Free the Bird

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together.”

“True knights.” The queen seemed to find that wonderfully amusing. “No doubt you’re right. So why don’t you just eat your broth like a good girl and wait for Symeon Star-Eyes [parallel of Brienne] and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight [parallel of Jaime] to come rescue you, sweetling. I’m sure it won’t be very long now.”

Sansa turned toward the sept. Two stableboys [foreshadowing to Arya and Pod] followed, and one of the guards whose watch was ended [foreshadowing to Jon]. Others fell in behind them.

“If it is Sandor Clegane that we encounter, what would you have me do?”

Pray hard, Jaime thought, and run. “Send him to join his beloved brother and be glad the gods made seven hells. One would never be enough to hold both of the Cleganes.”

Near the kennels a group of men-at-arms were fighting a pair of dogs. Tyrion stopped long enough to see the smaller dog tear half the face off the larger one, and earned a few coarse laughs by observing that the loser now resembled Sandor Clegane.

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords [Arya] and dogs [sandor] and horses [brienne]... and for her, his twin.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound [=Sandor]... Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful [=Jaime]... Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood [=UnGregor].

“I’ve heard his lordship say this war began when the Hand sent him out to bring the king’s justice to Gregor Clegane, and that’s how he means for it to end.”

So, here is my take for the great showdown (although I am still thinking about the details):

1. Dany will defeat Dorne as the last stronghold of fAegon and ride to the KL.

By this time, Cersei and Myrcella will still be in charge at the KL. Neither Dany nor fAegon will have the opportunity or desire to take the KL while their rival lives.

Sansa will be a hostage of Cersei.

The Mad Queen will reactivate the wildfire plot of Aerys.

Arya (having killed Varys in KL already and see UnGregor), will assemble a rescue team to get Sansa out of there before it is too late. UnGregor will be a serious problem.

Since they will know that UnGregor is a serious problem, Arya will recruit Sandor to face him. Brienne and Pod will also be in the team. Jaime will help them from inside. I think Cersei will also command Jaime to slay the intruders, especially Brienne whom she will be rightfully suspicious of having an affair with Jaime. I am not completely sure whether Jon will join this team but I will not be surprised if he does. After all, UnGregor is a creature of necromancy, a threat to the Realm and his vows allow him to deal with this monster.

Arya will lead the team through secret passages. They will manage to slay UnGregor but Sandor will not survive the fight, though he will have his revenge. Pod will slay another KG (Osmund perhaps) but he will also take mortal wounds and die upon Sansa's feet.

Jaime will go into the throne room and strangle Cersei. Since he only has a single hand, Cersei will manage to draw his dagger and mortally wound him.

This time, the rescue team will not be able to stop the pyromancers.

The KL will burn.

I will not be surprised if Arya dies in the confrontation, possibly staying by the wounded and dying Sandor while the wildfire rages around them and the ceiling collapses over them.

“Prince Aemon the Dragonknight cried the day Princess Naerys wed his brother Aegon,” Sansa Stark said, “and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk died with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound.”

“Be quiet, or I’ll have Ser Meryn give you a mortal wound,” Joffrey told his betrothed.

If this quote is foreshadowing, I fear Sansa might get a mortal wound too, though perhaps Bran might save her.

Ned tried a swallow. “Dregs.” He felt as though he were about to bring the wine back up.

“All men must swallow the sour with the sweet. High lords and eunuchs alike. Your hour [The Hour of the Wolf] has come, my lord.”

“My daughters…”

It was late at night, during the hour of the wolf, when the remaining lords departed the council chamber, leaving Maegor to brood alone. Early the next morning, he was found dead on the throne, his robes sodden with blood, his arms slashed open by the barbs of the Iron Throne.

Lord Cregan Stark held sway at court. This came to be known as the Hour of the Wolf.

Ned was concerned for his daughters. Ned’s spirit might ask Jon to save them when the time comes. The Hour of the Wolf represents a Stark coming down to the KL, kicking ass, doing justice and leaving. Also noteworthy that Maegor (Cersei's parallel) was last seen alive during the hour of the wolf.