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[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion


Ran
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I guess you got me wrong if you believe that I'm OK with the woman nudity. I think it is as bad as their portrayal of Loras. If you read my complete opinion of the episode, I also criticize the Mereen brothel scene where we see girls naked just because ... boobs!

It just happens that the conversation as been more directed to Loras's case. I wish to believe that it's because he's a more important character than a slave prostitute and not because he's a guy and not a girl.

I had the same problem last year with their portrayal of Oberyn and Ellaria for example, and I think I've said so in a previous post.

Yes, Loras has scenes that are not about his sexuality, but Ros also had some. It is not by having some minor scene where he is not being presented on a sexual perspective that his portrayal ceases to be one sided.

Really, if you think about Ros, do you first think of her as the lieutenant of LF or as the omnipresent whore of Westeros? The same applies to Loras.

It is sad, when we know the sacrifices they have to make in order to compact everything into so few screen time, to have to waste time on characters that are so one dimensional and so different of the vision GRRM had of these characters, just because D&D believe that the audience is too dumb to understand that a character can be many things at the same time. (to be clear, this isn't about last episode Loras's scene that I understand will be important for the progression of the story, but for his portrayal in general.)

Sadly, their portrayal of different characters seems to me to have become just that, one dimensional.

Today, the rage concerns Loras's character, but I'm sure I will be as vindictive when they show us the bad-ass/strong/avengers Sand Snakes, if the reviews of the first 4 episodes are indicative of the final result.

From the people I've talked to, proclaiming the Sand Snakes to be "B-movie bad girls" because of their opening scene is entirely unfair and completely misses the mark. How fair is it to draw a conclusion on three characters we have seen for 2 minutes in one TV scene versus their book counterparts which we have been allowed to read and disect over multiple chapters? Edited by TheWhiteRabbit
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From the people I've talked to, proclaiming the Sand Snakes to be "B-movie bad girls" because of their opening scene is entirely unfair and completely misses the mark. How fair is it to draw a conclusion on three characters we have seen for 2 minutes in one TV scene versus their book counterparts which we have been allowed to read and disect over multiple chapters?

I do think judging a character on first impressions is quite reasonable, actually. It sets up your expectations and opinions for the rest of their scenes. Take Oberyn's introduction last year. While I had my issues with it, it worked well as it established:

a) He's not one for formalities and decorum, and is quite happy to flaunt the rules.

b) He's a very sexual individual but has a loving,moped relationship with his paramour

c) He's a grudge to bear against the Lannister's

d) He loved his sister very much

e) He's a bit of a badass.

So if (having not seen it, I can't pass my own judgment) the Sand Snakes come across as B-movie bad girls, it is a bit of a problem. Yes they might be better in later episodes, but if that is how they appear in this first impression, then it's a fair comment to make.

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I have lots of stuff to say about the episode (or at least had, should have already written something down yesterday).

Overall, a good episode but there was something missing as is often case with season openers. I'm sure now that we're warmed up, next week's episode will be a bit better in that sense. Hopefully the story will then begin to slow down.

Random thoughts:
- The opening scene. Young Cersei was spot on, Maggy the Frog less so. I was disappointed when I realised the Valonqar part was missing but as many have pointed out it seems that the most crucial part will be revealed a bit later. Hopefully.
- Something was off with the conversation Cersei and Jaime had in the Sept. Maybe it's because Jaime seems to be going down a different path than his book counterpart. I do hope this will change soon.
- Liked Kevan. Seems like a really good casting. Looking forward to his dealing with Cersei... I think also Lancel's new appearance was handled well.
- "Holy shit, Ghost is on steroids" was my first reaction with the Wall scene. Also interesting interaction with Jon and Stannis. Mannis nails it once again.
- I don't like the show's version of Sweetrobin that much, mainly because he's been aged up so much. But luckily I don't have to see him that much, as Sansa and Creepyfinger leave for a roadtrip to... what seems to be Winterfell?
- I think by now D&D have renamed the Knight of Flowers "Loras Gayrell", as it seems to be the only thing that matters to them.

- Dany's Unsullied seemed to be in a much more interesting role this time. Liked the brothel scene although it had a less happy ending... Also dragons are throwing a tantrum, yikes!

- Saving my favourite part for last: I absolutely loved the scenes with Varys and Tyrion. What a brilliant battle of wits and dry humour... laughed quite a lot. These two should have a spinoff.

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There's been lots of talk about differences between show and books, especially this season. But I was more struck about the differences in ''feel'.



The first episode seemed like a whole new show to me, but I cant really put my finger on it. As if there were a new director or something.



People say that nothing really happened (that it was a bit slow), but I had the subjective feeling that the pace was signifcantly higher, that the editing was more 'modern' and that some dialogue and character development was a bit more cliche and sensational.



For me, there was already a clear divide between S1, S2, S3, S4 on one hand and S5 on the other hand. And it had nothing to do with book alterations.


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There's been lots of talk about differences between show and books, especially this season. But I was more struck about the differences in ''feel'.

The first episode seemed like a whole new show to me, but I cant really put my finger on it. As if there were a new director or something.

People say that nothing really happened (that it was a bit slow), but I had the subjective feeling that the pace was signifcantly higher, that the editing was more 'modern' and that some dialogue and character development was a bit more cliche and sensational.

For me, there was already a clear divide between S1, S2, S3, S4 on one hand and S5 on the other hand. And it had nothing to do with book alterations.

I had that same feeling and I can't put my finger on it either

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How is Ann Boelyn Marg on the show "complicated"? She's a social climbing schemer who uses her sexuality in an obvious manner. That is literally all there is to her in the show. Just because she gets a lot of screen time doesn't mean she's complex or more complex than in the books.

I should have been more specific. I find TV Cersei more complex than her cartoonish book counterpart and the proactive TV Margery more interesting than the harmless book Margery. At least show Margergy is pursuing something, but maybe we can have a scene of her hawking like in the books to make her a more complex character. I can see this doing wonders for her character development. But in seriousness isn't that what all the lemoncakes want? For Sansa to become more of a player than the played?

I do think judging a character on first impressions is quite reasonable, actually. It sets up your expectations and opinions for the rest of their scenes. Take Oberyn's introduction last year. While I had my issues with it, it worked well as it established:

a) He's not one for formalities and decorum, and is quite happy to flaunt the rules.

b) He's a very sexual individual but has a loving,moped relationship with his paramour

c) He's a grudge to bear against the Lannister's

d) He loved his sister very much

e) He's a bit of a badass.

So if (having not seen it, I can't pass my own judgment) the Sand Snakes come across as B-movie bad girls, it is a bit of a problem. Yes they might be better in later episodes, but if that is how they appear in this first impression, then it's a fair comment to make.

That's a fair argument, but my main point was the people I've spoken with that have viewed the episode did not think the Sand Snakes came off as corny. Edited by TheWhiteRabbit
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I cannot wait until the fifth episode. The leak has made this board a bore and completely stifled conversation. And for little reason at that. You do not see Matthew Weiner handing out screeners for any episodes besides the premier and I do not find the writing about his show to suffer from any lasting consequences as a result. The way I see it, the reviewers and recappers should simply watch the show at the same time as everyone else.


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I'm not sure if it's just because I've read the books, but for a first episode, I felt like it didn't really show the aftermath of Tywin's death as well as the opener to season 4 showed the aftermath to the Red Wedding. Rather than opening up with the prophecy (or still doing that but following with this scene) I feel like it would have been more impactful to start with the scene immediately after Tyrion leaves and we see everyone in the Red Keep panicing over Tywin's death. Cersai being woken out of her bed in a panic to find out her father was dead would have worked better than going straight to the funeral. Would have worked as a way to keep the energy high for the first episode, and as a reminder to people that Tywin's death is a big deal. I mean it was her first chapter in Feast after all.


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Right in the book...sorry......anyways in the book everyone is freaking the fuck out like "what do we do now Tywin is dead!" Cersei is searching everyone cutting off dwarf heads left and right, Jaime is on his fake hunt and no one knows how the hell to handle the situation. So far it's been like "well he's dead that's a big bummer." Idk they could have made it seem more desperate maybe that's to come though.

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Have you guys noticed they're trying to make us like Cersei and understand her motives.

First they give some of the bad things she does to Joffrey (killing all of Roberts bastards and having Mandon Moore try to kill Tyrion)

Then they make the Lannisters broke so she would have a reason not to pay back the Iron Bank.

And now they're making it look like Maergary is scheming to get rid of Cersei so she would have a reason to be paranoid.

Also, why would young Cersei waste one of her questions asking if she would be queen right after Maggy said she would marry the king????? Isn't that sort of implied that if you marry the king then you will be queen lol

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Brienne Pod scenes completely wasteful kill them both and be done with it.

I agree, i would mind seeing Roose flay Brienne out of pure spite. I like Pod, so he can become Stannis's squire. Don't kill Pod, he has not taught us how he pleased them womens yet.

I liked the hound, but he got beaten by a women. Not that women are weak, but i did consider the Hound to be the Man of all Men and was/ is hoping for the Cleganebowl. Pretty sure Sandor would kill Gregor in an even 1 vs 1.

Sandor might also be the only one in the seven Kingdoms that would not be afraid in a fight vs the Mountain. Well Oberyn was not, but he got killed by Gregor.

Any other belives that Qyburn will use a Dwarf head on Robert Strong?

Edited by Hannibalurg
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I always hated what GRRM did with the character of Mance rayder in adwd. mance just turned from a almost mythological world leader to stupid and silly underground secret agent for Stannis( I mean seriously you turned mance f$@#ing rayder to Roose boltons wedding bard?! Are you kidding me?!!).At least with the show they finish him off with some dignity and honor.

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I always hated what GRRM did with the character of Mance rayder in adwd. mance just turned from a almost mythological world leader to stupid and silly underground secret agent for Stannis( I mean seriously you turned mance f$@#ing rayder to Roose boltons wedding bard?! Are you kidding me?!!).At least with the show they finish him off with some dignity and honor.

"Hated" is too strong a word for how I felt about it but for the most part ... :agree:

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For those who think that the show misses a lot of plots and other twists, I would like to add the following:

You all have to understand that putting all the hints about for instance Jons true parentage is a lot harder in a show. Because you are watching + listening (+ maybe reading the subtitles) it’s a lot harder to get every detail that is shown/told.

I watch the show together with my GF, and she basicly only remembered the main characters since the last episode (about a year ago). 90% of the time, characters are shown and their names are not told (but in the books they often are). So knowing the names of people like Shireen, Mance, Tormund is a lot harder.

I don’t think there are (m)any people on this forum that didn’t read the books. And I’m sure that if any of us did, they wouldn’t have any idea of Jons parentage either. And remembering all those names after you’ve heard them once is really hard too (I know other people who have only watched the show, and they don’t remember names either. And I do, even though I am terrible with names).

So yes, for a book reader it isn’t really fun to see those things removed, but for the show on itself I think it’s better.

:agree:

I have to admit: Maggy The Frog was more like Maggy the MILF. :leer: :blush:

Eww. She needs a scrub down in a lye bath, a crewcut, and a good, strong toothbrush.

The way I see it, the reviewers and recappers should simply watch the show at the same time as everyone else.

:agree:

Any other belives that Qyburn will use a Dwarf head on Robert Strong?

My first thought, to be honest.

mance just turned from a almost mythological world leader to stupid and silly underground secret. At least with the show they finish him off with some dignity and honor.

:agree:

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