[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion

[HexMachina]

I always hated what GRRM did with the character of Mance rayder in adwd. mance just turned from a almost mythological world leader to stupid and silly underground secret agent for Stannis( I mean seriously you turned mance f$@#ing rayder to Roose boltons wedding bard?! Are you kidding me?!!).At least with the show they finish him off with some dignity and honor.

Mance was a bard though. And he had posed as a travelling singer before and visited Winterfell. Mance took a big risk by going to Winterfell, and I thought it was really quite a brilliant storyline (not necessarily the RattleMance bit, the actual Winterfell stuff, although personally I had no problem with the glamour plotline). Mance is charismatic and shrewd, that is how he got the Wildlings to band together in the first place. I don't think his character really changed at all in A Dance with Dragons.

I don't especially mind the show killing him off, much as I liked that part of the novels. I think the biggest disappointment that his death brings is that he had been so underused in the show, and as Hinds demonstrated in this episode, he really can fill this role so well.

[Ser Creighton]

You know if you think about the Varys scene plan according to Varys on the show, it goes like this.

I knew Robert was going to be a disaster. (Though Robert was preceded by the Mad kinig and followed by Joff, in which case Robert in comparison was an excellent ruler.)

So me and a group of Targaryen loyalists decided to save Westeros by putting a good ruler one the throne. (And who was that ruler going back to season one? Why it was none other than Viserys Targaryen, the Mad Kings mad son. And how to accomplish thiss task in order to protect the small folk. Why sell Dany to a Dothraki slaver and have an army of Dothraki slavers invade Westeros to put Viserys the Mad son on the throne.)

Well that is a great plan, I am sure a Dothraki slaver hoard led by Viserys would of done wonders for everyone in Westeros. Because that was actually the original plan because Robert was so bad that his entire rule was by and large marked by peace and good weather, while those that came before him and after him were total nightmares.

[Cas Stark]

You know if you think about the Varys scene plan according to Varys on the show, it goes like this.

I knew Robert was going to be a disaster. (Though Robert was preceded by the Mad kinig and followed by Joff, in which case Robert in comparison was an excellent ruler.)

So me and a group of Targaryen loyalists decided to save Westeros by putting a good ruler one the throne. (And who was that ruler going back to season one? Why it was none other than Viserys Targaryen, the Mad Kings mad son. And how to accomplish thiss task in order to protect the small folk. Why sell Dany to a Dothraki slaver and have an army of Dothraki slavers invade Westeros to put Viserys the Mad son on the throne.)

Well that is a great plan, I am sure a Dothraki slaver hoard led by Viserys would of done wonders for everyone in Westeros. Because that was actually the original plan because Robert was so bad that his entire rule was by and large marked by peace and good weather, while those that came before him and after him were total nightmares.

I guess the only justification is that Show Varys dumb plan is awfully close to Book Doran's dumb plan: wait until the Targs grow up to make an alliance while sitting on your duff and doing nothing to help them out. Though Vary's randomly believing that the Targs are going to be good rulers, despite the Mad King, and not having had any contact w/them is dumb, at least Book Doran's interest isn't good government, LOL.

[Fiery Heart]

I think the biggest influence on Season 5 feeling different to previous is that there are more characters, locations & storylines. Overall the pacing has a slower feel to it with the progression of narratives more spread out. Something we'll have to get used to!

Edited April 15, 2015 by Fiery Heart

[Danny Leary]

Why is everyone so certain that Mance is dead? I know he talked a bit, is it not possible that Melisandre could influence that as well?

[Colonel Green]

Why is everyone so certain that Mance is dead? I know he talked a bit, is it not possible that Melisandre could influence that as well?

Because the actor has said he's done with the show.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Colonel Green

[Lord Damian]

I think the show is going to throw some real loops for people but they say that they are headed in the same direction. I believe them.

[Lovely Lyanna]

I was watching episode 501 again last night when I noticed the clothing that Tyrion and Varys had on when Varys brought up Dany and Mereen. Those costumes looked like Mother and daughter matching outfits. That made me laugh out loud. I did not notice that the first time.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

I've had a few days now to think about it and I think the Loras' sex scene will prove to have been necessary in order to move Cersei's power struggle with the Tyrells along. Margery told Loras he needed to be more discreet and that line alone should be a big clue that he will be caught or seen by Cersei or her spies. After all....Cersei DOES NOT want to marry Loras and blackmailing him or framing him about his sexuality will be used against in some form or fashion to advance her agenda. If Cersei escapes the walk of shame then I will be extremely upset. Hope that hasn't been deleted or given to someone else, That would be a MAJOR CHANGE and most unwelcomed by this fan!

[Dofs]

I always hated what GRRM did with the character of Mance rayder in adwd. mance just turned from a almost mythological world leader to stupid and silly underground secret agent for Stannis( I mean seriously you turned mance f$@#ing rayder to Roose boltons wedding bard?! Are you kidding me?!!).At least with the show they finish him off with some dignity and honor.

Literally the first time we ever see Mance, Jon mistakes him for a simple singer. That's the way Mance always was.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

You know if you think about the Varys scene plan according to Varys on the show, it goes like this.

I knew Robert was going to be a disaster. (Though Robert was preceded by the Mad kinig and followed by Joff, in which case Robert in comparison was an excellent ruler.)

So me and a group of Targaryen loyalists decided to save Westeros by putting a good ruler one the throne. (And who was that ruler going back to season one? Why it was none other than Viserys Targaryen, the Mad Kings mad son. And how to accomplish thiss task in order to protect the small folk. Why sell Dany to a Dothraki slaver and have an army of Dothraki slavers invade Westeros to put Viserys the Mad son on the throne.)

Well that is a great plan, I am sure a Dothraki slaver hoard led by Viserys would of done wonders for everyone in Westeros. Because that was actually the original plan because Robert was so bad that his entire rule was by and large marked by peace and good weather, while those that came before him and after him were total nightmares.

Seriously.....Varys argument is STUPID and you would think Tyrion was smart enough not to fall for Varys' motive. Varys and Littlefinger do not care one iota about the realm, the small folks, or who they hurt while playing THE GAME OF THRONES. They are going to betray and switch loyalties whenever they see a chance for self aggrandizement.

If Baristan Selmy or Jorah Mormont survive long enough to meet up again when Varys and Tyrion see Daenerys.....then I hope they spill the beans on what a jerk Varys is. He would make a good meal for Drogon!!!!

Edited April 15, 2015 by TheFirstofHerName

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

You know if you think about the Varys scene plan according to Varys on the show, it goes like this.

I knew Robert was going to be a disaster. (Though Robert was preceded by the Mad kinig and followed by Joff, in which case Robert in comparison was an excellent ruler.)

So me and a group of Targaryen loyalists decided to save Westeros by putting a good ruler one the throne. (And who was that ruler going back to season one? Why it was none other than Viserys Targaryen, the Mad Kings mad son. And how to accomplish thiss task in order to protect the small folk. Why sell Dany to a Dothraki slaver and have an army of Dothraki slavers invade Westeros to put Viserys the Mad son on the throne.)

Well that is a great plan, I am sure a Dothraki slaver hoard led by Viserys would of done wonders for everyone in Westeros. Because that was actually the original plan because Robert was so bad that his entire rule was by and large marked by peace and good weather, while those that came before him and after him were total nightmares.

THIS^

Because the actor has said he's done with the show.

Just because the actor is done with the show, doesn't mean the character is gone for good.They could still use the glamouring plotline but...it's highy unlikely.

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

You know if you think about the Varys scene plan according to Varys on the show, it goes like this.

I knew Robert was going to be a disaster. (Though Robert was preceded by the Mad kinig and followed by Joff, in which case Robert in comparison was an excellent ruler.)

So me and a group of Targaryen loyalists decided to save Westeros by putting a good ruler one the throne. (And who was that ruler going back to season one? Why it was none other than Viserys Targaryen, the Mad Kings mad son. And how to accomplish thiss task in order to protect the small folk. Why sell Dany to a Dothraki slaver and have an army of Dothraki slavers invade Westeros to put Viserys the Mad son on the throne.)

Well that is a great plan, I am sure a Dothraki slaver hoard led by Viserys would of done wonders for everyone in Westeros. Because that was actually the original plan because Robert was so bad that his entire rule was by and large marked by peace and good weather, while those that came before him and after him were total nightmares.

This so much.

[Fez]

I think having Mance be glamoured would undercut the weight and impact of the burning scene to an enormous degree, enough so that, were that to happening, they wouldn't have spent so much time on it and it wouldn't have closed out the episode.

[boojam]

You know if you think about the Varys scene plan according to Varys on the show, it goes like this.

I knew Robert was going to be a disaster. (Though Robert was preceded by the Mad kinig and followed by Joff, in which case Robert in comparison was an excellent ruler.)

So me and a group of Targaryen loyalists decided to save Westeros by putting a good ruler one the throne. (And who was that ruler going back to season one? Why it was none other than Viserys Targaryen, the Mad Kings mad son. And how to accomplish thiss task in order to protect the small folk. Why sell Dany to a Dothraki slaver and have an army of Dothraki slavers invade Westeros to put Viserys the Mad son on the throne.)

Well that is a great plan, I am sure a Dothraki slaver hoard led by Viserys would of done wonders for everyone in Westeros. Because that was actually the original plan because Robert was so bad that his entire rule was by and large marked by peace and good weather, while those that came before him and after him were total nightmares.

Where does the 'Targaryen loyalist' association come from?

That is more in the books than the show. Varys and Illyrio may have associates in the books GRRM has not reveled yet.

Yeah George is inconsistent about what Viserys was REALLY going to do, and in all practicality the Dothraki would not have gotten onto ships , at least not 50,000 of them with horse!

I can see Varys becoming fond of Westeros , and that seems to be the way GRRM has it, but why Illyrio? Still that's in the book too, at least implied.

Why did the Lannisters want Robert dead? He seemed to favor Cersei's issue to the point of thinking they were his , or he didn't care. So the realm was well enough off under Robert and even Joffrey was in a better situation as an heir than a monarch!

My way of thinking is only one entity wanted really wanted Robert gone the Iron Bank. If he didn't work get another who would. I don't think the IB anticipated everything would go to hell.

Maybe they did and really wanted a Trag back, did they have better experience with them?

Varys and Illyrio may really be in the employ of the Iron Bank!

Edited April 15, 2015 by boojam

[Colonel Green]

Why did the Lannisters want Robert dead? He seemed to favor Cersei's issue to the point of thinking they were his , or he didn't care. So the realm was well enough off under Robert and even Joffrey was in a better situation as an heir than a monarch!

The Lannisters didn't want Robert dead. Cersei wanted Robert dead, because she hated him. Tywin, Kevan and the Casterly Rock people most likely had no idea about any of it.

[LadySoftheart]

Cersei needed Bob dead before Ned had the chance to spill the incest beans: she hated Robert for most of their marriage (at least in the books though perhaps not so much on the show) but it was Ned's ultimatum to leave Westeros with her children or he would tell Robert that the kids were Jaime's that sealed Robert's fate.

[ShadowKitteh]

Here's the weekly "Why Game of Thrones sucked tonight"

1.) They left out the entire fucking point of the Maggy the Frog prophecy scene, the Volanqar. Why bother with the flashback if you're going to cut the most important part?!

2.) No stench at Tywin's funeral, way to take out the fucking best part.

3.) No Illyrio despite staying at his fucking house

4.) Varys just casually revealing his organization and its motives to Tyrion, fuck off D&D. And what's this defending the downtrodden nonsense from him? He's a fucking Targ loyalist. Not to mention they're having him go off on Tyrion adventures instead of staying in King's Landing and owning shit up like he should. Fucking character assassination.

5.) Missandei and Grey Worm bullshit STILL. STILL. STILLLLLLL. Really D&D?! You have to cut Euron, Victarion, Wyman, Aegon, Connington, and nearly everything else that makes the most-ASOS books interesting yet you still have the time to include fucking Missandei and Grey Worm scissoring?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?

6.) Characterizing the Faith Militant has some sort of fanatical homophobic ISIS instead of the charitable people's army of war refugees they are in the book. D&D are unable to place themselves in a medieval society, instead inserting the "Hurrrr religion bad" 2015 worldview into somewhere it doesn't even belong. Believe it or not, the Faith Militant/Sparrows are not meant to be antagonists unless you're Cersei.

7.) Oh look, it's Loras. I wonder how long until D&D reference that he's gay. Oh, that was about 1 minute. You realize in the books it's just heavily implied Loras is gay and he has an actual personality/character traits besides being a running gay joke/reference? D&D are unable to take characters outside of their diversity quota mold.

8.) Brienne actually ran into BOTH Stark girls by sheer coincidence. Do D&D think Westeros is the size of Disneyland or something?!

9.) What the fuck is with this bullshit Sansa-Winterfell storyline. You know they're going to Winterfell based on the trailer. So Stop trying to force "Dark Sansa" (I didn't even coin this fucking bullshit cringey term) down our throats and stop making LF out to be an idiot. Fucking strong independent women Sophie Turner bad acting bullcrap.

10.) Mereen ALREADY FUCKING SURRENDERED. BRAVO D&D. There goes the entire battle of book 5 and half of its material. Why even bother with the Sons of the Harpy when Yunkai is doing nothing?! This is so nonsensical, first they're desperate for Dany material to adapt then they take out her biggest fucking challenge after arriving in Slaver's Bay. I guess this season will just be Dany bitching about MUH DRAGONS again.

11.) That fucking stupid kid that killed Ygritte is a recurring character now? Oh fuck off with that crap. I bet they'll have him kill Stannis, Jon, and the Night's King while they're at it.

12.) There's no indication or foreshadowing that really wasn't Mance, like in the books. If they killed him off for good, fuck you D&D.

Don't worry folks, I'll be here all season, reminding you why the books are better.

While I disagree with many of your points, I love your writing, and laughed, loud, because I understand them. Bravo, Ser.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I could honestly take or leave missandei and Grey Worm. Don't care either way.

[Fylimar]

I liked the episode.There were some minor things, I didn't liek that much, but mostly, it was a good episode. here some topics, that stick out for me:

Maggie

I hope, that they will give us the second half of Maggies prophecy in a later episode, but I liked the scene - the two young girls were really well casted (the young Cersei looked, like she could be related to Lena - and she played her so well. Maggie was too young and too beautiful, but since she is a minor character (in screentime, not in importance), I'm ok with it.

Daenerys

I was really positively surprised by Daenarys. I read the fifth book again last year and although Dany will never be my favorite character, I guess, I can understand her better. I liked, that they bring in her insecure side, while trying to deal with her dragons. I don't know about you, but when reading the books, I tend to forget, that she is merely a child then and very inexperienced in dealing with all those things, she has to deal with (teenage dragons, wars, ruling a city, keeping the people satisfied...) - the books has some nice scenes to remember us and I'm glad, they do it in the show too. Her asking Daario for advice, her being terrified of her dragons, because she has no idea, how to control them. That was a great scene for Emilia Clarke too. She had to play the powerful queen for too long, it's time,s he get to show some of the other sides of her character. I hope, they keep it up.

Tyrion and Varys

While I find Varys being in Penthos with Tyrion still irritating, I really like the scenes with those two. After the brillant Charles Dance is gone (apart from Flashbacks, I guess), those two are my favorite actors in the show (and that says something, there are a lot of really great actors around) - they own every scene, they're in. But I, too, am a little worried about Aegon - is it really possible to leave him out?

The Wall

It was a shock to see, that they really would kill off Mance. Although I couldn't pictureTVMance as playing a joyful bard :lol: , he was played by a good actor... and btw: as much as I like Tormund, he is an even more unlikely joyful bard (and don't get me started by Rattleshirt). I guess, we wont get Abel at all.

I loved the scene, where Jon killed Mance, so he don't has to suffer. The dialogue between those two before was well played by both actors, but it was a little odd. I still didn't really get, why TVMance would not give in - his arguments didn't make sense to me at all.

Sansa/Littlefinger

So they would really swap Sansa for f!Arya? I don't know, how I find that. It does make sense, if they don't want to cast new people for minor roles, but considering what Ramsay does to f!Arya, I am a bit worried about Sansa. And I really want Manderly and the Fry pies...

Loras

I have no problems with same sex love scenes, but it gets a little repetetive here. I guess, it will be important later on, since there is no more mention of the Kettlebacks or any other possible suitor for Maergary, Cersei will probably try to frame Loras instead of Maergary (someone mentioned in an earlier post, that there was a preview hinting in that direction too) and so they want make sure, every casual tv watcher remembers that detail and him being so open about it. LBut his show portrayal adds to Lady Starks remark about the careless summer knights imo, so it is kind of fitting.

Edit:

I forgot about Grey Worm and Missandei: Although I have no problem with those characters, I have to agree with other posters here, that their lovestory only take time from already existing (in book or/and tv) storylines. I'm waiting for Lady Stoneheart and even the Greyjoys

Edited April 16, 2015 by Fylimar