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[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion

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Isn't it amazing how the dragons have grown by a multiple of 10 after, what, a couple of months of being chained in a dungeon??


They go in the size of St. Bernards and they're now the size of fucking T-Rexes.



Also LMAO when Dany pissed herself and ran for her life. Visenya she ain't !! :D


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Why does Varys in Pentos/Mereen bother people so much? He was completely absent during AFfC and ADwD and only showed up at the end to murder a few important people. Varys went into hiding immediately after Tywin was killed, so him not going back to KL really isn't that big of a detour. Replacing Illyrio with Varys was pretty expected - lots easier (on the Unsullied) than bringing back a character who was in two episodes at the beginning of Season 1.

I'm totally on board with the criticism of Varys spilling the beans on his entire scheme in 13 seconds, but him being in Essos doesn't really affect anything, I don't get the beef.

Because it means he is not observing everything going on in KL so as to adjust to the pieces moving around the board.

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Because it means he is not observing everything going on in KL so as to adjust to the pieces moving around the board.

Not being there doesn't mean he doesn't know what is going on. I'm sure he'll be well informed in Essos.

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Why does Varys in Pentos/Mereen bother people so much? He was completely absent during AFfC and ADwD and only showed up at the end to murder a few important people. Varys went into hiding immediately after Tywin was killed, so him not going back to KL really isn't that big of a detour. Replacing Illyrio with Varys was pretty expected - lots easier (on the Unsullied) than bringing back a character who was in two episodes at the beginning of Season 1.

I'm totally on board with the criticism of Varys spilling the beans on his entire scheme in 13 seconds, but him being in Essos doesn't really affect anything, I don't get the beef.

Yes, but Varys claiming to be a Targ supporter might be lost on some people because he has never shown any support thus far, people will remember how he sent word for Dany to be poisoned in Series 1. By having Illyrio, people would recognise the one person who was offering Dany and Viserys safe haven, when they were wanted felons.

Having Illyrio present, would help people acknowledge that he and Varys operate on the same page, rather than him suddenly saying "Oh, by the way, I'm actually a Targ supporter"

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Yes, but Varys claiming to be a Targ supporter might be lost on some people because he has never shown any support thus far, people will remember how he sent word for Dany to be poisoned in Series 1. By having Illyrio, people would recognise the one person who was offering Dany and Viserys safe haven, when they were wanted felons.

Having Illyrio present, would help people acknowledge that he and Varys operate on the same page, rather than him suddenly saying "Oh, by the way, I'm actually a Targ supporter"

What Varys said is consistent with his previous statements. As for killing Dany, just like in the books, at that point Dany was a pawn to be sacrificed so Drogo would invade and, thus, Viserys could become king.

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Sorry if already covered. Any idea why the valonqar was not included in Maggy the Frog's prophecy?? Will it come out in another prophecy? Is that being cut as well?

thought the same but was admittedly a little drunk so thought maybe I missed it. Could do without multiple flashbacks which is what I think we're unfortunately going to get. They're really pushing Cersei this season.

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Sorry if already covered. Any idea why the valonqar was not included in Maggy the Frog's prophecy?? Will it come out in another prophecy? Is that being cut as well?

Because Cersei's valonqar is end-game foreshadowing... and on tv foreshadowing like that 2-3 seasons ahead doesn't work. What we saw just puts the two middle game concerns of Cersei to the forefront ths season: safety of Myrcella in Dorne, Tommen in KL, rivalry with Margaery. Having the foreshadowing this season may not bode well for Tommen and Myrcella this season methinks.

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Because Cersei's valonqar is end-game foreshadowing... and on tv foreshadowing like that 2-3 seasons ahead doesn't work. What we saw just puts the two middle game concerns of Cersei to the forefront ths season: safety of Myrcella in Dorne, Tommen in KL, rivalry with Margaery. Having the foreshadowing this season may not bode well for Tommen and Myrcella this season methinks.

Fair enough. They may find another way to slip the valonqar in...

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Yes, but Varys claiming to be a Targ supporter might be lost on some people because he has never shown any support thus far, people will remember how he sent word for Dany to be poisoned in Series 1. By having Illyrio, people would recognise the one person who was offering Dany and Viserys safe haven, when they were wanted felons.

Having Illyrio present, would help people acknowledge that he and Varys operate on the same page, rather than him suddenly saying "Oh, by the way, I'm actually a Targ supporter"

I don't recall him being the one to have Dany executed. In fact Robert ordered it, and Varys agreed, but it was Littlefinger who sent the assasin and Varys who warned Jorah that they would try and kill her but Varys didn't know how. Jorah guessed it was the wine seller. Of course Varys has to agree with Robert while in front of him. But I don't recall him in the show or the books trying to have her killed. He always sends that letter to Jorah warning him about the attempt.

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Regarding the Illyrio and Varys connection......I always assumed they had been communicating with each other the whole time since Season 1 when Ayra spied on Varys and Illyrio (or his messenger) beneath the castle. If a Targarygen on the throne had been their plan all along then why the need to send Jorah Mormont to spy and send assassins after her? This seems like slobby writing to me within the series separate from the book.

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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Also, I officially christen that blond guy 'Gay Roz'.

He's the Multitasking Prostitute for me...

Sorry if already covered. Any idea why the valonqar was not included in Maggy the Frog's prophecy?? Will it come out in another prophecy? Is that being cut as well?

Because Unsullied will start naming their babies Valonqar believing that's Peter Dinklage's character's real name, just like Khaleesi... :dunno:

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Regarding the Illyrio and Varys connection......I always assumed they had been communicating with each other the whole time since Season 1 when Ayra spied on Varys and Illyrio (or his messenger) beneath the castle. If a Targarygen on the throne had been their plan all along then why the need to send Jorah Mormont to spy and send assassins after her? This seems like slobby writing to me within the series separate from the book.

My impression is that show Varys initially supported Viserys, and then when Viserys was killed Varys maybe switched to supporting Drogo/Dany (the foiled poisoning being an attempt to enrage Drogo into action, or maybe Varys had given up on that plan and didn't care about Dany at that point). Then Varys punted for a while dealing with the civil war while Dany wandered around. Then Dany got an army and Varys started thinking that maybe Dany could be the ruler that Westeros needs. It is also possible / probable that Varys isn't telling Tyrion the entire truth at this point. Anyway, Varys' plan has been changing in response to the situation.

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To be honest, overall I found the episode jarring and in some ways underwhelming. A lot of the character's arc kinda still followed the pace of the books in the previous 4 seasons, which to the book readers is a long story set up. We've arrived at the middle game for every main character, but the first episode gave me the impression that the show seems to head to the start of the end-game by the finale. And it seems that with Sansa they intent to skip the middle arc altogether. A part of me does not like that, but on the other hand we've had 4 seasons almost of Sansa being stuck at KL, and it might let her story flaunder if she'd be stuck in the Vale.



I found the Loras' mole scene kinda boring and too silly to make me even watch it while I was doing something else, except when Margaery entered.



I don't mind the non mention of the Valonqar or dropping the murder of her friend. That young actress mimicked adult Cersei's mannerisms and arrogancy so well, that it didn't make me sympathize with her at all. Just made me think, "she was always like that". Kudoz to the young actress for that.



I agree with others that lots of the convo was lame, including Cersei-Jaime convo. But it did help in one way... At the end of S4 I wondered about how Jaime and Tyrion parted on good terms, but at least that scene made clear that Jaime will not have any good feelings left for his brother. I don't mind it yet all that much that there is no rift yet between Cersei and Jaime. Just like the Valonqar prophecy it might be too early for both their end game to show that now. As long as it happens.



Brienne's scene with Podrick seemed unnecessary filler, and Brienne's attitude to Podrick irked me. She reverted back to her attitude to him when she had just left off with Pod in S4. And Sansa driving past them in her cart with LF felt like banging my head in with foreshadowing. Kinda like, "These two are bickering pointlessly about Arya on the side of the road doing nothing and filling air-time, and lo and behold Sansa drives past. Hey Brienne! There's still Sansa to consider, now that Arya wanted nothing to do with you." At least with Arya and Sandor, Arya always arriving too late was ironic and Arya in the end had a fit of laughter about it.



Tyrion at Illyrio's home with Varys and NO Illyrio! I know some people truly love that character (show or book), but I found it at the very least a candidate for the most boring and most predictable scene of the whole episode. Ok, so tha's supposed to be Tyrion becoming dark? Being grumpy for being stuck in a box, talking about pushing his faeces through an airhole of the box and puking. And then Varys thumping my head in with another club by dumping all of his motivation on the viewer, while it's pure retconning him in light of his actions of S1. What?



Mereen: good they dropped the Yunkai trouble. Dany responds stunted as usual surrounded with plenty of people to advize her, but never really listening. Liked the Daario-Dany bed scene and conversation, except for the wig (jarred and distracted me). I liked the murder scene. Didn't need the explanation that the Unsullied go to brothels to be hugged, saw that clearly. Felt sorry for the man who got killed by the Harpy's son. The MessWorm scene was jarring: not the appropriate setting for her to inquire with him over that. And silly, pointless answer.



The Wall: Ghost gnawing bones!!! Awkward scene with Jon and Mel. Mel doesn't know subtle, does she? You can see her coming from a mile off. Overall good. Kinda irked me they reduced it to "he has to bend the knee" instead of punishing him for abandoning the watch. OTOH, I' not sure anymore whether the show revealed it to us that Mance used to be a brother of the NW. I'm pretty sure Unsullied wouldn't remember that, so it makes sense they altered it to Stannis demanding another King claimant subjects himself to his authority, even if he's a claimant of a part of land North of the Wall. If Mance and his wildlings want to live South of the wall, without being regarded as enemies, they must accept they're part of the 7 Kingdoms and thus subjects of the King of those 7 Kingdoms. But that conversation with Jon and Mance was lame. Good on Jon for mercy killing Mance, but I kinda thought that last shot wof Jon was a bit too much of a hero trope. It felt like the show hammerig my head again with "Hey, he's the hero!"



So, good start up, some very jarring moments, some very boring moments and lots of banging my head in with the obvious. And there were a few really awful cringeworthy scenes: Loras' mole, Brienne bitching at Pod, Tyrion at Pentos, Mance-Jon convo. And for me Tyrion's scene wins out of those 4.


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A decent set up episode. Obviously nothing too crazy. I do wonder if they are going down the book route with Mance or if he's actually dead. They might feel the whole glamour thing is too esoteric for the show, as they remove a lot of the magic from the books. Interested in where Sansa's story is going. Was genuinely quite hurt that the cuddle-prostitute was in on the murder.


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I enjoyed the pacing. Some interesting changes that cause me to continue down the road of assuming the books and show will diverge more than most expect. Bad acting by some but overall fun.

Grey Worm romance is a complete waste of time. Make it stop.

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OTOH, I' not sure anymore whether the show revealed it to us that Mance used to be a brother of the NW. I'm pretty sure Unsullied wouldn't remember that, so it makes sense they altered it to Stannis demanding another King claimant subjects himself to his authority, even if he's a claimant of a part of land North of the Wall

Show did reveal that, more than once, including in Mance's final words yesterday that Castle Black was once his home.

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Show did reveal that, more than once, including in Mance's final words yesterday that Castle Black was once his home.

If they mentioned it again in the episode, they could have used it for a reason with Stannis too.

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I really hope that they include Loras teaching Mommy how to joust and fighting at Storm's End. A gifted fighter needs something better to do than be token gay guy. They did the same thing with Oberyn last year, defining him by his sexuality. I do like that he's friendly to Cersei. I remember thinking in the books that Margaery should defer more to the queen regent like her brother does, if she wants to stay alive.

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