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[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion

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Well... a lot I really liked, some meh stuff, and some outright wtfery. IOW, hello GOT!



Really liked:



Kid Cers and the prophesy. Wish we'd got the 'your death is in this room' for Melara, but oh, well. As some have said, we may see that scene again.



Cersei: LH is killing it IMO, and her scene with Jaime was good; it had history and emotional weight, something I felt was missing between them last season.



Dany: much better, overall. Her scene with Daario reminded me of the Dany I liked back in S1. See? Emilia can pull off more than 'queen', if directed so. Felt bad about the Stalwart Shield business and unlike some of you lot, I found Missandei's curiosity plausible and relevant: she is aware Torqo Noro has some feels for her and she is fond of him; it felt natural for her to wonder.



Stannis: finally. Finally, we see the reason why Davos is so loyal to him... I squealed during the 'Bolton/spike=OTP' moment, I admit. Also, I liked that Stannis thinks of the wildlings; he's a seasoned general, it makes sense he'd suss that out. I also think DIllane is playing Stannis differently this season: less bitter/teeth-grinding, more calm purpose and that wry sort of glint in the eye that Stannis should have. So, yay.


Naming Rhaegal/Viserion + entire scene was great.



Meh:



Brienne passing Sansa felt too soapy, like those sledgehammer IRONY ALERT scenes soaps do (you know, X rhapsodies about Y's faithfulness at the exact moment Y is rutting with Z in a corner somewhere). Anyway, let's see what happens there.


Varys/Tyrion: great chemistry, but the scene felt off (as you lot have stated, due to Varys' motives).



LF/Sansa: SR fighting was cool, the rest not so much. I just can't shake the very strong Farya feeling now. And that is terrifying.


Loras Dorne: yawn. Still, I get the reasons (indiscretion=arrest).



WTF:



Mance. Like, I get Hinds may have wanted out, but come on! Make sense, D&D. And Hinds was brilliant in his scenes too.



Also, Mel Jon sexytimes=NO. Please. Please stop Mel being so SEXAY! She doesn't need to do all that shit, she's a beautiful, scary otherworldly woman, not a cougar. Uff!



Overall, I find myself optimistic and excited after the doubts I'd been having pre season. The story seems tighter, simpler and with more interaction, which is appropriate at this stage. The downside is an absence of that layered complexity we experience in-book but considering the medium, I'll take it.

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In the books he cuts down several of Renly rainbow guard after Renly is murdered .

Thanks for refreshing my memory. :)

I'd also like to add to the !BookLoras personality traits: hungry for glory, if somewhat foolishly so (his eagerness to lead the attack on Dragonstone and the way he probably rushed to his own death/mortal wounding + I think Jaime says he reminds him of his younger self), romantic (previously mentioned quote "if the sun has set etc."), genuinely loves his family.

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Why do you think D&D added these scenes (sex with olivar, talk about brooches, stare with Oberyn)?

Was it to add something to the character? Was it to advance the plot? No. They were added to remember the audience that yeah, he's gay.

It would have been the same if Loras was portrayed as a macho man and you'd replace Olivar by a female prostitute and his talk about brooches by a talk about boobs.

I understand what´s your point, but i disagree.

Of course, there have been many scenes emphasising his sexuality, and yes, his character is strongly reduced compared to the books.

But so are many.

And everyone will agree, that the show is WAY more sexually explicit than the books are (adding new naked prostitute-characters and changing the protagonists personalities).

So, what´s my point? I have read many posts complaining about stuff like "to much guy butts this episode", whereas all the naked women showing everything seem to be quietly tolerated. Same with Lora. Why can´t there be a Tyrion-like (remember the whores in season 1) gay character, who answers his losses (Renly) and uncomfortable situation (Cersei) in a foolish way (indiscrete sex)? Loras is not one of the main characters (even they get not enough screentime), but hey, this is a storyarc, not "just him beeing gay". Remember, he also had a scene talking with Cersei. Properly dressed.

So, while i widely agree with all the complains towards Loras, everone should check potential double moral standards. The show hungers for sex scenes, and others like Daario are also reduced in this way. We may be more familiar with him an Dany making out, because it was part of the books, but come on: The scene when he spoke of his past in the pits was about showing him naked. Ellaria was reduced to be the naked woman besides Oberyn. What was the purpose of Ros? :-D

To come to an end: I am not a prude and i enjoy the show. We all will see more of Loras beeing gay, and (very propable) Loras getting problems because of beeing gay. Cause that is the way, the show works.

Edited by Lemorecake

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For those who think that the show misses a lot of plots and other twists, I would like to add the following:



You all have to understand that putting all the hints about for instance Jons true parentage is a lot harder in a show. Because you are watching + listening (+ maybe reading the subtitles) it’s a lot harder to get every detail that is shown/told.



I watch the show together with my GF, and she basicly only remembered the main characters since the last episode (about a year ago). 90% of the time, characters are shown and their names are not told (but in the books they often are). So knowing the names of people like Shireen, Mance, Tormund is a lot harder.



I don’t think there are (m)any people on this forum that didn’t read the books. And I’m sure that if any of us did, they wouldn’t have any idea of Jons parentage either. And remembering all those names after you’ve heard them once is really hard too (I know other people who have only watched the show, and they don’t remember names either. And I do, even though I am terrible with names).



So yes, for a book reader it isn’t really fun to see those things removed, but for the show on itself I think it’s better.


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Man, that whole Loras thing is getting blown out of proportion here, it's not even funny. I'm just glad I wasn't here when the Cersei/Jaime-Rape thing happened. Yes, it was a stupid sex-position scene, like, really stupid, but come on, the character isn't that important. Who really cares? There is so much significant stuff. Like how they basically destroyed the whole WTF-Moment of Varys killing Kevan and all of the ambiguity of his motivations. That's the thing that honestly pissed me off the most about the episode. Besides that there is small stuff I didnt like too much, like Stannis constant smiling kind of irritated me. But overall I'm pretty happy. The cinematography got really good in the past four years and I'm quite happy that they are going to strike that whole boring first half of Tyrions aDwD chapters. I'm really worried about the Winterfell/Sansa/LF stuff, especially cause I loved all the Reek/Theon stuff in the book, but I'll give em the benefit of the doubt. And yes, I will stay upset about the lack of LSH for at least another season or two. :D But at that point we can give up. It ain't happening.


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Man, that whole Loras thing is getting blown out of proportion here, it's not even funny. I'm just glad I wasn't here when the Cersei/Jaime-Rape thing happened. Yes, it was a stupid sex-position scene, like, really stupid, but come on, the character isn't that important. Who really cares? There is so much significant stuff. Like how they basically destroyed the whole WTF-Moment of Varys killing Kevan and all of the ambiguity of his motivations. That's the thing that honestly pissed me off the most about the episode. Besides that there is small stuff I didnt like too much, like Stannis constant smiling kind of irritated me. But overall I'm pretty happy. The cinematography got really good in the past four years and I'm quite happy that they are going to strike that whole boring first half of Tyrions aDwD chapters. I'm really worried about the Winterfell/Sansa/LF stuff, especially cause I loved all the Reek/Theon stuff in the book, but I'll give em the benefit of the doubt. And yes, I will stay upset about the lack of LSH for at least another season or two. :D But at that point we can give up. It ain't happening.

We don't know if that'll happen. Varys and Tyrion will separate in episode 3 when they are in Volantis and we will propably see him in the finale killing both Pycelle and Varys.

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Brienne is depressed over what happened in the last season finale. She didn't think one of Lady Cat's daughters would choose the Hound over her and run. She will snap out of it (next week, since the previews show her fighting someone).

So the show has clearly established Dany has no control over the Dragons, which seems to lead to her scene was Drogan down the road. It also opens the door for the Dragon Horn. How do they introduce the horn if they even bother without the Grey Joys? The Martells?

The horn could be accomplished quite easily without a Greyjoy or a Martell

Somewhere between Pentos and Meereen, Tyrion crosses paths with a Red Priest who has a horn that he claims controls dragons. Tyrion could steal it or kill the priest and take it, or wager it away from him. Perhaps the priest is old and dying (greyscale?) so he gives Tyrion the horn knowing that he(the priest) isn't going to make it all the way to Dany. Tyrion gives the horn to Dany or blows the thing himself right before Dragon-geddon

Edited by Aryakills

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Another question, is the actor playing Kevan staying on the entire season now? Will he become Hand? If not, who will D&D place as Hand? Was it mentioned in ep1 at all?

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Regarding the angst over showMaggy's age..



BookMaggy was/is the grandmother (or great g'ma) of Jeyne Westerling so Maggy had to be old. Since the Westerlings do not exist in the show, Maggy can be however old they want her to be.



Besides that the description of bookMaggy comes from a ten year old. Anyone over 20 is old to a ten year old. lol


Edited by Aryakills

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Battle scenes are expensive and don't add very much if overused. GRRM seems to have written Loras out by sending him to Dragonstone. D&D seem to be setting him up to use him to raise the stakes in the Ayatollah/High Sparrow plotline.



Until this scene there was no indication that a man might need to be discrete about gay sex.


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I understand what´s your point, but i disagree.


Of course, there have been many scenes emphasising his sexuality, and yes, his character is strongly reduced compared to the books.


But so are many.


And everyone will agree, that the show is WAY more sexually explicit than the books are (adding new naked prostitute-characters and changing the protagonists personalities).



So, what´s my point? I have read many posts complaining about stuff like "to much guy butts this episode", whereas all the naked women showing everything seem to be quietly tolerated. Same with Lora. Why can´t there be a Tyrion-like (remember the whores in season 1) gay character, who answers his losses (Renly) and uncomfortable situation (Cersei) in a foolish way (indiscrete sex)? Loras is not one of the main characters (even they get not enough screentime), but hey, this is a storyarc, not "just him beeing gay". Remember, he also had a scene talking with Cersei. Properly dressed.



So, while i widely agree with all the complains towards Loras, everone should check potential double moral standards. The show hungers for sex scenes, and others like Daario are also reduced in this way. We may be more familiar with him an Dany making out, because it was part of the books, but come on: The scene when he spoke of his past in the pits was about showing him naked. Ellaria was reduced to be the naked woman besides Oberyn. What was the purpose of Ros? :-D



To come to an end: I am not a prude and i enjoy the show. We all will see more of Loras beeing gay, and (very propable) Loras getting problems because of beeing gay. Cause that is the way, the show works.




I guess you got me wrong if you believe that I'm OK with the woman nudity. I think it is as bad as their portrayal of Loras. If you read my complete opinion of the episode, I also criticize the Mereen brothel scene where we see girls naked just because ... boobs!


It just happens that the conversation as been more directed to Loras's case. I wish to believe that it's because he's a more important character than a slave prostitute and not because he's a guy and not a girl.



I had the same problem last year with their portrayal of Oberyn and Ellaria for example, and I think I've said so in a previous post.


Yes, Loras has scenes that are not about his sexuality, but Ros also had some. It is not by having some minor scene where he is not being presented on a sexual perspective that his portrayal ceases to be one sided.


Really, if you think about Ros, do you first think of her as the lieutenant of LF or as the omnipresent whore of Westeros? The same applies to Loras.



It is sad, when we know the sacrifices they have to make in order to compact everything into so few screen time, to have to waste time on characters that are so one dimensional and so different of the vision GRRM had of these characters, just because D&D believe that the audience is too dumb to understand that a character can be many things at the same time. (to be clear, this isn't about last episode Loras's scene that I understand will be important for the progression of the story, but for his portrayal in general.)



Sadly, their portrayal of different characters seems to me to have become just that, one dimensional.


Today, the rage concerns Loras's character, but I'm sure I will be as vindictive when they show us the bad-ass/strong/avengers Sand Snakes, if the reviews of the first 4 episodes are indicative of the final result.


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Oh, disappointing, I came to this topic especially to read your oppinions :)). Anyway I won't write my own thoughts, just like you, because I don't feel there's any need, this episode brought nothing new and it left me feeling underwhelmed. I would probably be a lot more forgiving with it if I hadn't already watched the first 4 episodes. Maybe I've become jaded, don't know.... I'll watch the unsullied reactions in the next couple of weeks. If they're still excited I guess D&D are doing a good job.

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The horn could be accomplished quite easily without a Greyjoy or a Martell

Somewhere between Pentos and Meereen, Tyrion crosses paths with a Red Priest who has a horn that he claims controls dragons. Tyrion could steal it or kill the priest and take it, or wager it away from him. Perhaps the priest is old and dying (greyscale?) so he gives Tyrion the horn knowing that he(the priest) isn't going to make it all the way to Dany. Tyrion gives the horn to Dany or blows the thing himself right before Dragon-geddon

Or the whole Iron Islands plot can take place in Season 6.

Putting the horn on a boat and sending it off into the nether never made a lick of sense. Just wait for Danny to show up with the dragons.

The horn itself does not need to show up until it is going to be used. And anyone can drop a mention of it. Or they can ask a Maester how to deal with Danny's dragons.

The big question that has not yet been answered is whether there will be seven seasons or more. I would bet the pressure is on to make an eighth already.

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I would bet the pressure is on to make an eighth already.

The decision is most likely made at this point. As we speak, they are already writing the scripts of S6, and they have decided what will be included and what not.

So, since they have only left material for the final season, I don't think it's feaseible to strecht it to two whole seasons. The most I can see is an extended last season aired during two years (as with Breaking Bad or Mad Men).

I think Petyr Baelish will be the hand and will be killed by Varys at the very end of the season, this is my own thought process.

That's a very interesting idea. I think it's a likely possibility!

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I guess you got me wrong if you believe that I'm OK with the woman nudity. I think it is as bad as their portrayal of Loras. If you read my complete opinion of the episode, I also criticize the Mereen brothel scene where we see girls naked just because ... boobs!

It just happens that the conversation as been more directed to Loras's case. I wish to believe that it's because he's a more important character than a slave prostitute and not because he's a guy and not a girl.

I had the same problem last year with their portrayal of Oberyn and Ellaria for example, and I think I've said so in a previous post.

Yes, Loras has scenes that are not about his sexuality, but Ros also had some. It is not by having some minor scene where he is not being presented on a sexual perspective that his portrayal ceases to be one sided.

Really, if you think about Ros, do you first think of her as the lieutenant of LF or as the omnipresent whore of Westeros? The same applies to Loras.

It is sad, when we know the sacrifices they have to make in order to compact everything into so few screen time, to have to waste time on characters that are so one dimensional and so different of the vision GRRM had of these characters, just because D&D believe that the audience is too dumb to understand that a character can be many things at the same time. (to be clear, this isn't about last episode Loras's scene that I understand will be important for the progression of the story, but for his portrayal in general.)

Sadly, their portrayal of different characters seems to me to have become just that, one dimensional.

Today, the rage concerns Loras's character, but I'm sure I will be as vindictive when they show us the bad-ass/strong/avengers Sand Snakes, if the reviews of the first 4 episodes are indicative of the final result.

I totally agree with that.

They changed his personality a lot, maybe cause there are´nt so many sexscene-suitable male characters left (rob had to earlier).

My first intention when hearing of the missing greyjoy-arc was: But i´m sure we´ll see ALL the kettlebacks with Cersei. It seems i was wrong and it´s now Loras.

Even so, that "we know he´s gay"-thing may be some kind of overreaction cause we are more used to sexualised women than men. I don´t remember many complainers when they changed Daarios first visit at night to another dany-boobs!-moment.

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Loras going to Dragonstone and sustaining major battle wounds in critical condition was the only time I paid attention or respected him in the books... and yet D&D couldn't even give him that.

And damn Dany... show a little bit more skin yeah? You're supposed to be showing half of your breasts every episode anyways.

We do not really know if that is the case (Loras being severely wounded), or if it is a ruse to further manipulate Cersie

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Another question, is the actor playing Kevan staying on the entire season now? Will he become Hand? If not, who will D&D place as Hand? Was it mentioned in ep1 at all?

He should stick around and become protector of the realm during Cersei's trial, until his death.

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I understand that this may simplify the problem but in my opinion, like I've said before, it's too much.

I believe that one of the things that hooked people in the first place to the show was the way that it treats its characters. In the first seasons, almost all of them seemed complex and believable as persons. Now, the show is tending to simplify them and almost making them one dimensional (We've got Gay Loras, Slutty Margaery, Cersei the bitch, Bad-ass Aria, Darth Sansa, Manipulating LF, ...)

The show became quite big and it is difficult for people who only watch each episode once to remember everybody, but I don't think that stripping the characters of so much is the solution. If D&D really believe that their audiance is too dumb to understand something with a minimum of subtlety, then I think they choose the wrong books to adapt.

People remember that Loras is gay. There was no need to repeat it every time he appeared on the show in order to use his sexuality now. Even if that was their plan all along (and I don't think it was), I believe that one hint in season one and now a reminder in season 5 would have been sufficient. The time they used to repeat over and over again that he his gay could have been used for something else.

Then show viewers would have seen Loras not as "That gay guy" but as "That guy who happens to be gay", and that is for me a big difference.

I think you're exaggerating a lot of your points. I find Cersei and Margery to be far more complex characters on the show, and I believe Arya (my favorite book character) is written and acted exceptionally.

I know it's hard as a book reader to think this way, but the majority of viewers are casual fans. People that know who the main characters are, but can still have trouble keeping track of the vast amounts of secondary characters. I mean the show just brought back someone we haven't seen since the second season, three years later and he looks completely different. I can't even imagine how hard it must be for the casual viewer that doesn't want to spend the time going to Wikipedia every time they see a character they don't recognize.

The show is not perfect, but I believe its total sum is more than enough to make up for the few weak links. The show still captures the heart of the book series and IMO is the most compelling and entertaining series on TV currently. As a fan of the books I am more than satisfied with what is being produced and believe a lot of these criticisms from my fellow readers are a little harsh.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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I think you're exaggerating a lot of your points. I find Cersei and Margery to be far more complex characters on the show, and I believe Arya (my favorite book character) is written and acted exceptionally.

I know it's hard as a book reader to think this way, but the majority of viewers are casual fans. People that know who the main characters are, but can still have trouble keeping track of the vast amounts of secondary characters. I mean the show just brought back someone we haven't seen since the second season, three years later and he looks completely different. I can't even imagine how hard it must be for the casual viewer that doesn't want to spend the time going to Wikipedia every time they see a character they don't recognize.

The show is not perfect, but I believe its total sum is more than enough to make up for the few weak links. The show still captures the heart of the book series and IMO is the most compelling and entertaining TV show currently. As a fan of the books I am more than happy with what I'm seeing and believe a lot of these criticisms from my fellow readers is a little harsh.

How is Ann Boelyn Marg on the show "complicated"? She's a social climbing schemer who uses her sexuality in an obvious manner. That is literally all there is to her in the show. Just because she gets a lot of screen time doesn't mean she's complex or more complex than in the books.

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