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[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion

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That's why I don't think he'll 'call her up and tell her he's breaking with her'. More like 'accept the inevitable, and not bother anymore' - which means that he'll be free to choose a new, positive direction for his life. How's that meaningless?

Accepting the inevitable is passive, you're rolling with it, she don't love me no more, I gots to move on.

That's very different than making an active choice to cut ties with someone who is toxic, which is a positive step, recognizing the relationship is destructive and moving away from it.

In the show, if anything, that recognition and decision has gone to Cersei, a complete role reversal. Perhaps they're going to redeem her instead of him.

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In the show, if anything, that recognition and decision has gone to Cersei, a complete role reversal. Perhaps they're going to redeem her instead of him.

I'm not sure. I think that Cersei is in more or less the same 'I'd like to stay, but we're too different now' place. She chose to be with Jaime as recently as 410, remember? And then, their differences showed up again.

But then, the relationship had never struck me as particularly toxic. Just one that ran its way, without especially putting blame on either side. I think that you've let yourself be suggested too much by the books, maybe. The show is different.

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I'm not sure. I think that Cersei is in more or less the same 'I'd like to stay, but we're too different now' place. She chose to be with Jaime as recently as 410, remember? And then, their differences showed up again.

But then, the relationship had never struck me as particularly toxic. Just one that ran its way, without especially putting blame on either side. I think that you've let yourself be suggested too much by the books, maybe. The show is different.

The show is billed as an adaptation. The double Ds have said they intend to end it the same way the books end. And while it now resembles something much closer to 'inspired by' than 'adaptation' the showrunners seem to believe they are faithful to the basic characterizations in the books.

But, just in evaluating the show, I'm unclear in the show what those "differences" are, actually. In the books there were many clashes over Cersei's decision making once she gained power. None of this exists in the show. In the show she basically rejects him because 'he took too long' and now everything is different or some such. It's quite random. She spent her time pining for her brother's return, and then when he returns, still besotted with her, in love with her, not questioning her, she rejects him out of hand for no discernable reasons that are articulated in the show.

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The show is billed as an adaptation. The double Ds have said they intend to end it the same way the books end. And while it now resembles something much closer to 'inspired by' than 'adaptation' the showrunners seem to believe they are faithful to the basic characterizations in the books.

I think that's because the characters and stories are basically faithful - i.e. when you compare them at the end of all things, they will be, within an epsilon margin, similar. Show Jaime will straggle for some seasons more, but I'm pretty sure that eventually, he'll make his choice. Similarly, I think that Balon will eventually die. Although Ellaria will probably take on the character of Arianne and there will be no Aegon, Dorne will have a similar position in the game in the show as in the books, i.e. will support a non-Daenerys, non-Cersei, non-Tyrell pretender. And so on and so forth.

But, just in evaluating the show, I'm unclear in the show what those "differences" are, actually.

Well, not to be a smartass, but that's your problem.

e: Wait, that still did sound smart-assy. I meant more something like, "I'm sure you are, to me they are clear, but I'm not interested in discussing this further, especially since it's probably been rehashed a hundred times already."

Edited by ADanceWithCats 😸

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Wow you truly are cat crazy aren't you? How did you get that cat head next to your nick name? :D

I followed Good Guy Garlan's description of how s/he got their rose. Essentially, go to getemoji.com, copy the emoji and paste into your 'display name'.

I'm currently experimenting. e: also, my kitten got catnapped while suntanning in my garden a week ago, so whenever I'm not desperately walking around the neighbourhood calling for him, I'm in mourning. That's outside of the scope of the discussion, though. Please don't laugh.

Edited by 😸

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I followed Good Guy Garlan's description of how s/he got their rose. Essentially, go to getemoji.com, copy the emoji and paste into your 'display name'.

I'm currently experimenting. e: also, my kitten got catnapped while suntanning in my garden a week ago, so whenever I'm not desperately walking around the neighbourhood calling for him, I'm in mourning. That's outside of the scope of the discussion, though. Please don't laugh.

except I see yours but not Garlans, except in my Nexus where I see both.

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I followed Good Guy Garlan's description of how s/he got their rose. Essentially, go to getemoji.com, copy the emoji and paste into your 'display name'.

I'm currently experimenting. e: also, my kitten got catnapped while suntanning in my garden a week ago, so whenever I'm not desperately walking around the neighbourhood calling for him, I'm in mourning. That's outside of the scope of the discussion, though. Please don't laugh.

Thank you! I'm going to have to remember to thank Good Guy Garlan, as well. :)

ps: sorry to hear about your kitten. :grouphug:

Edited by roxWolfox 🍁

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Darrio mentions fighting like a Norvoshi Priest, boy that's obscure, but then, we will meet Areo Hotah E2.

Hotah is from Norvos but don't know if he was priest? (The bearded priests.)

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When Viserion and Rhaegal act peckish Dany says "Easy, easy" in common tongue , well what the heck they don't understand that, she forgot to use Valyrian!

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Jaime's feelings started dramatically changing in the books after he learned from Tyrion that Cersei had been sleeping around. He dwelled on it from that day forward. ShowJaime doesn't know that yet. Maybe he'll find out soon about Lancel and that will be the turning point for him.

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Alright so this is my first official post ever on a forum of any kind. Been lurking here since season1 but just didn't feel a need to write. So Hya all:))) I'll apologize in advance for bad English and no spellcheck setup on my PC.



I actually did like the kickoff of this season and I kinda think that I will enjoy this season on a level that I haven't been able to enjoy the previous ones. The thing is.. well the written material is, imo, not as good as for the previous books, no HUGE events and HUGE expectations for those events. I expect the pacing to be way slower and I only hope that they use the screentime for more character developement, and maybe flashbacks, history, etc, cause I feel like they finally may have some space to do so. I might as well take this season to be the compete oposite of season 3, where almost EVERYTHING was a setup to the famous Red Wedding, so much so that they made mistakes I wasn't able to forgive or forget, especially with the Cait/Rob/Talisa arc :crying: . This season we won't have such an event and basically they don't have to rush, or setup, or assassinate charaters for a pupose of a big event to come.For once I get the feeling I will be able to just sit back and enjoy the season. I wonder if anyone here feels the same.



Things I liked:



- The young Cersei. The flashback itself was just great to see. For me, all I could think of was... okay. they are doing flashbacks... ok, when the time comes I might get to see Raegar, Lyanna, the Rebellion... dare I say Arthur Dayne... :drool: so the flashback gave me much to hope for and look forward to. I didn't care how the witch looked like, the imporant thing was "they are doing flashbacks". We need that. :bowdown:



- All of the Jon/Mance/Stannis scenes. It's one of those cases when good acting casts the shadow over the poorly written dialogue.



- The Dany payoff. Like many readers/viewers I found her boring from the begining of the story. Even the Drogo plot. Everything about her. She is a late game character and this episode is officially the first one where I can finally say I am being entertained. That little inner circle of her advisors and seeing her making political decisions finally makes her look like she DOES have some power. Like she could go up against Westeros. Which up to this point completely was lost on me, book and show wise.



- Kevan and Lancel. The obvious discomfort on Cersei's face to see a ghost from the past :devil:



- On a similar note, Cersei+Loras. You just gotta love how she is doing her best not to turn around and slap his face. Almost gives me the same pleasure as when Tyrion wasn't so able to compose himself with Joff. :drunk: Almost...



- My man Tyrion explaining how you shit from a barrel. You never know when you're gonna need to know that. I just need a tip on what to use to wipe your hands, that's all I'm saying. But, seriously, Varus and Tyrion can read the phone book for an hour every week and it would still be one of the better shows on tv.





Things I didn't like:



-Grey Worm and Missandrei..... just please please please make it stop... :ack:



- Yes, women have been complaining that there isn't enough male nudity on the show from season one. I am a woman, and I must say I would rather prefer seeing Loras holding a sword than, well, Olyvar or whatever his name. But again, they are just continuing what they started with Loras since he was first introduced. And yet I'd rather have non book readers say "it's the queen's kickass knight bother", than "it's her gay brother"... :frown5:



- Mance's argument. Still waiting to get one. Oh, wait, that isn't gonna happen...




Things I was ok with: Sansa/Littlefinger, Arya, Brienne/Pod. Those are going somewhere so they are just reminding us who has a plot this season. I like the dark Sansa, but they are overdoing it a tiny bit. As for Brienne/Pod I must say I will be seriously SERIOUSLY angry if we don't get Lady Stoneheart. For me, she was "The North Remembers" before "The North Remembers" she give me the same rush and the same thirst for revenge as the latter. And hope. We need Frey blood and I hope the show doesn't take that away from us...



That's it for now, but I hope to join you guys from now on :cheers:

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Welcome Morgainelesad and I liked your post very much.

Me too. Interesting point about acting vs. dialogue. And I dare say there will be Frey blood sooner or later.

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Jaime's feelings started dramatically changing in the books after he learned from Tyrion that Cersei had been sleeping around. He dwelled on it from that day forward. ShowJaime doesn't know that yet. Maybe he'll find out soon about Lancel and that will be the turning point for him.

Hmm, I thought it started earlier than that. My reading was that Jaime had gone through the opening stages of a change in his philosophical mentality in his experiences with Brienne. As a result, not only does Cersei recognise and dislike this change, Jaime in his new mentality finally starts to see Cersei for what she really is. I got the impression he didn't let himself believe what Tyrion told him. It obviously bugged him as he kept thinking about it, but he always seemed to make himself believe it couldn't be true.

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Thank you guys for the welcome :)






Welcome Morgainelesad,



You can set spell check up in your browser.





Actually it's a huge mess.. don't even have english setup as a language option for setup anywhere on the pc. My native language was previously set up for work, but i don't mind since I should work on my spelling anyways.





Me too. Interesting point about acting vs. dialogue. And I dare say there will be Frey blood sooner or later.





Well as said the guy playing Mance is a terrific actor, I've seen some of his BBC stuff from the early 90 where he was quite a charmer so I also think he could have pulled of the original jolly bard Mance from the books. Stannis and Jon also are played by good actors, but unlike previous seasons, Jon isn't made out to look stupid and Stannis is finally made out to be not so evil. :))


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Because it means he is not observing everything going on in KL so as to adjust to the pieces moving around the board.

What are all his little birds for, if not to observe?

EDIT: Meh, that was a pretty unecessary response after a full week. Oh well.

Edited by vividox

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Thoughts while watching:



- If you're going to have a scene of Cersei growling at Jaime "I've told you [Tyrion] was the enemy for years" so soon after the flashback, you might have included the warning about the valonqar in the flashback.



- Not sure why they changed Mance's fate, but they executed the scenes well.



More thoughts:



- I have a feeling that, every time there's a scene between Missandai and Grey Worm, I'm going to think of that quote David and Dan gave for cutting so much out of this season: "We don't want to shortchange Arya for some character we just met." And I also have a feeling that, whenever there's a scene between Missandai and Grey Worm, I'm going to think: "But you'll shortchange Bran to make room for sh*t like this?"



- I have mixed feelings about the expanded role of the Tyrells in the show. To be perfectly frank, they've never struck me as being that important in the books. That's not to say that they're unimportant, but none of them have served as POV characters thus far, their interactions with POV characters has been limited (we're as likely to read about a POV character observing or recollecting a Tyrell as we are to see them conversing with a Tyrell), and their role seems very much a supporting one. Were I producing the show, my instincts would have been to leave them in the background and retain, say, more of the houses intriguing in the North. On the other hand, I have enjoyed ShowMarg's expanded role, and most of ShowLady Tyrell's scenes. Loras sleeping with an agent of Littlefinger's is sure to have a payoff later on, but I do agree with many of the objections to how the show has handled his sexuality.


Edited by Fisch

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