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[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion

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Well I liked the opening with young Cersei, did hope they showed her friend biting it, maybe later.


I for one like the darker Sansa not because people call it Darth Sansa but Sophie Turner is much older then book Sansa and can't really do the naive thing all the way in as the book, at the age she's playing the deaths of her family, the knowing of everybody around her is a potential threat would make anyone darker in their thoughts , she is freer now and internally can plot and hopefully counter plot, she is not naive as younger Sansa, but not skilled enough yet to beat Petyr at his game.



I did think it was funny that Pod did not notice house Arryn banners as the escorts went by him and Brienne.



Liked Jon Snow and the wall.



Tired of brothel scenes and everyone needing to stab some woman or guy .



Liked Jon defying Stannis in his way.


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When laying in bed with another men is the most important thing he does in the show, it becomes stereotypical. When other people talk about him, the thing they talk about is his sexual orientation. Even his grandmother! When he has some dialogue, his most important lines of the show were fucking marriage fashion tips. If you still believe this is not a gay stereotype, I don't know what is.

Try asking book readers or show viewers what is the first thing they think about Loras. Book readers will tell you how good a jouster he his, how loyal he his,... and some will tell you that he's gay. Show viewers will almost unanimously tell you: "that's Margaery's gay brother, right?".

Show Loras only exists on the show to be the gay guy.

I'm a book reader who thinks Book!Loras is a murderer who got away for his crimes because of his daddy. I hardly think a man who kills his sworn brothers is loyal. He was just in mourning in the books.

I won't "reprimand" Show!Loras for not staying in mourning forever nor having sex without love.

And besides, even in the books, Loras is no more than a summer knight. He participated in two battles only, the only one he lead, he turned into a butchery. He's a fancy, entitled, wealthy murderer.

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I'm a book reader who thinks Book!Loras is a murderer who got away for his crimes because of his daddy. I hardly think a man who kills his sworn brothers is loyal. He was just in mourning in the books.

I won't "reprimand" Show!Loras for not staying in mourning forever nor having sex without love.

And besides, even in the books, Loras is no more than a summer knight. He participated in two battles only, the only one he lead, he turned into a butchery. He's a fancy, entitled, wealthy murderer.

That's a fair point about book Loras. Apart from his Rainbow Guard Rampage being all the way back in ACOK, I think the reader gets so immersed in the culture of the series and the sheer amount of strange things that occur that they end up starting to accept some of the events as simply things that happen just as the people living in the society might.

Another thing that probably makes Loras in particular and the Tyrells in general look better than they are is that we see them as the foil for Cersei, one of the most unambiguously evil characters.

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I'm a book reader who thinks Book!Loras is a murderer who got away for his crimes because of his daddy. I hardly think a man who kills his sworn brothers is loyal. He was just in mourning in the books.

I won't "reprimand" Show!Loras for not staying in mourning forever nor having sex without love.

And besides, even in the books, Loras is no more than a summer knight. He participated in two battles only, the only one he lead, he turned into a butchery. He's a fancy, entitled, wealthy murderer.

You proved my point: You think of Loras as a character and judge him for his actions. I don't care if you see him as good or bad. I just used the terms loyal and good jouster because they are terms that I've seen a lot on different threads about him.

Show Loras is only the gay guy, nothing else

Edited by Valetudo

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I don't think Loras' scene with his lover was included just to remind the view that he is gay. It was to emphasize his lack of discretion. Cersei will use his sexuality to publicly prevent their marriage and possible to cause his imprisonment, so the writers inserted this scene to lay the groundwork for this plot. Margery commented that she is working on something to "remove" Cersei from her interfering presence in King's Landing. Margery will act against Cersei to bring about the Walk of Shame and Cersei will act against the Tyrells which will bring about Margery's and/or Loras' downfall.



The use of Littlefinger's brothel worker likely sets the scene for Olenna's confrontation of Littlefinger. A random guy wouldn't work for this plot.


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You proved my point: You think of Loras as a character and judge him for his actions. I don't care if you see him as good or bad. I just used the terms loyal and good jouster because they are terms that I've seen a lot on different threads about him.

Show Loras is only the gay guy, nothing else

Well, you got me there, but what else is Loras going to do in the show? The war is over, they are not going to go around playing tournaments and he is the heir of Highgarden (and with Mace Tyrell to set an example). At this point, he's a rich gay playboy.

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Well, you got me there, but what else is Loras going to do in the show? The war is over, they are not going to go around playing tournaments and he is the heir of Highgarden (and with Mace Tyrell to set an example). At this point, he's a rich gay playboy.

Loras is a minor character that only has so much screen time because he is gay. He isn't doing anything since the end of season 2. He serves as comic relief. They could have easily sent him to Highgarden or stopped showing him but no, we have to show this guy from time to time because, you know, he's gay.

I don't think Loras' scene with his lover was included just to remind the view that he is gay. It was to emphasize his lack of discretion. Cersei will use his sexuality to publicly prevent their marriage and possible to cause his imprisonment, so the writers inserted this scene to lay the groundwork for this plot. Margery commented that she is working on something to "remove" Cersei from her interfering presence in King's Landing. Margery will act against Cersei to bring about the Walk of Shame and Cersei will act against the Tyrells which will bring about Margery's and/or Loras' downfall.

The use of Littlefinger's brothel worker likely sets the scene for Olenna's confrontation of Littlefinger. A random guy wouldn't work for this plot.

I don't think there is really a problem with this episode scene either (excepting the mole part that was really unnecessary). I understand that'll be an important scene for the progression of the story.

The problem is that, as always on the show, Loras is present because he's gay. I understand that this may work well with the sparrows and all, but enough is enough. D&D needed another reason for the sparrows to mess with Margaery and, instead of thinking of something to compromise her personally, they just remembered: "Hey! She has this gay brother! Lets use him! And we'll have some gay sex scenes too, so we'll fill our quotas of sexy time and prove that we like diversity too!"

If Loras had been used properly since the beginning of the series (I'm ok with his scenes on season 1 and 2, maybe send him away after or at least no fucking gay jokes or fashion tips every time he's talked about on season 3 and 4), it would have been OK.

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Loras is a minor character that only has so much screen time because he is gay. He isn't doing anything since the end of season 2. He serves as comic relief. They could have easily sent him to Highgarden or stopped showing him but no, we have to show this guy from time to time because, you know, he's gay.

I don't think there is really a problem with this episode scene either (excepting the mole part that was really unnecessary). I understand that'll be an important scene for the progression of the story.

The problem is that, as always on the show, Loras is present because he's gay. I understand that this may work well with the sparrows and all, but enough is enough. D&D needed another reason for the sparrows to mess with Margaery and, instead of thinking of something to compromise her personally, they just remembered: "Hey! She has this gay brother! Lets use him! And we'll have some gay sex scenes too, so we'll fill our quotas of sexy time and prove that we like diversity too!"

If Loras had been used properly since the beginning of the series (I'm ok with his scenes on season 1 and 2, maybe send him away after or at least no fucking gay jokes or fashion tips every time he's talked about on season 3 and 4), it would have been OK.

Why? What was wrong with the original story of Cersei trying to frame her for adultery and Cersei getting caught her in own trap?

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Why? What was wrong with the original story of Cersei trying to frame her for adultery and Cersei getting caught her in own trap?

Nothing, but based on the trailers where we see a scene where Loras seems to be accused of something and now this scene where Margaery tells him to be more discreet, I guess that this is going to replace the "Margaery is not a virgin" part of the story. Maybe because Tommen is older and will certainly consummate the marriage.

Edited by Valetudo

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Why? What was wrong with the original story of Cersei trying to frame her for adultery and Cersei getting caught her in own trap?

Well, it's a bit contrived and needs plenty of characters. "Loras is gay, kill him" is far simpler.

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Loras is a minor character that only has so much screen time because he is gay. He isn't doing anything since the end of season 2. He serves as comic relief. They could have easily sent him to Highgarden or stopped showing him but no, we have to show this guy from time to time because, you know, he's gay.

The thing is, he doesn't do anything in the books either, at least until the fall of Dragonstone, which will not be happening in the show.

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The thing is, he doesn't do anything in the books either, at least until the fall of Dragonstone, which will not be happening in the show.

But on the books, he doesn't appear every now and then to give us fashion tips or to be the recipient of some gay joke.

I don't care about Loras character on the books or on the show, it's the usage they're making of him that I don't like.

Edited by Valetudo

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Well, it's a bit contrived and needs plenty of characters. "Loras is gay, kill him" is far simpler.

What is contrived about it? It seems to me much less contrived than "I'll out Loras as gay and this will destroy Margery as Queen". It doesn't need as many characters as the book, only 1 accomplice actually, who would be the 'lover'.

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What is contrived about it? It seems to me much less contrived than "I'll out Loras as gay and this will destroy Margery as Queen". It doesn't need as many characters as the book, only 1 accomplice actually, who would be the 'lover'.

Yeah, but they have to go for the shock value. Loras is gay is so much bad-ass!

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If Loras' main purpose is to serve as a plot device to further Cersei's story then I say well done D&D! There's limited minutes people. We can only allow so many book characters to be fleshed out. I can sympathize with some of you thinking one of Loras' previous scenes was a tad offensive, but the fact that one of the above criticisms is that the Unsullied see Loras as the gay character is probably exactly what D&D want. It makes the power-play between Cersei vs. Margery more interesting and shocking IMO. You steal my boy? I'll steal your brother. I love the change and think it's an effective use of the TV medium. As I said before we only have so many minutes with these characters, so better to let the real players play their game and just use more of the secondary characters as the pawns they kind of already are in the books.

And yes, you may say Margery is more of a pawn in the books, but she's older and far more interesting in the show. Another change I welcome with open arms, because it makes the void created by the loss of Tywin and Tyrion far less detrimental to the KL politics.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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If Loras' main purpose is to serve as a plot device to further Cersei's story then I say well done D&D! There's limited minutes people. We can only allow so many book characters to be fleshed out. I can sympathize with some of you thinking one of Loras' previous scenes was a tad offensive, but the fact that one of the above criticisms is that the Unsullied see Loras as the gay character is probably exactly what D&D want. It makes the power-play between Cersei vs. Margery more interesting and shocking IMO. You steal my boy? I'll steal your brother. I love the change and think it's an effective use of the TV medium. As I said before we only have so many minutes with these characters, so better to let the real players play their game and just use more of the secondary characters as the pawns they kind of already are in the books.

And yes, you may say Margery is more of a pawn in the books, but she's older and far more interesting in the show. Another change I've welcomed with open arms.

I understand that this may simplify the problem but in my opinion, like I've said before, it's too much.

I believe that one of the things that hooked people in the first place to the show was the way that it treats its characters. In the first seasons, almost all of them seemed complex and believable as persons. Now, the show is tending to simplify them and almost making them one dimensional (We've got Gay Loras, Slutty Margaery, Cersei the bitch, Bad-ass Aria, Darth Sansa, Manipulating LF, ...)

The show became quite big and it is difficult for people who only watch each episode once to remember everybody, but I don't think that stripping the characters of so much is the solution. If D&D really believe that their audiance is too dumb to understand something with a minimum of subtlety, then I think they choose the wrong books to adapt.

People remember that Loras is gay. There was no need to repeat it every time he appeared on the show in order to use his sexuality now. Even if that was their plan all along (and I don't think it was), I believe that one hint in season one and now a reminder in season 5 would have been sufficient. The time they used to repeat over and over again that he his gay could have been used for something else.

Then show viewers would have seen Loras not as "That gay guy" but as "That guy who happens to be gay", and that is for me a big difference.

Edited by Valetudo

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I'd say it's the second or third best season premiere, definitively beats nr 2 while falling behind number 1. As for the discussion above about Loras, I'm fairly certain his main role in this season is to somehow get the ball rolling with regards to the trial of Margery, and then go die or get injured at Dragonstone or somewhere else to leave her without a champion.

I also wrote a more detailed review, that anyone interested can find here: https://promethiumwings.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/game-of-thrones-a-review-of-the-season-5-premiere/

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We have not seen Margaery with any of her handmaidens or that whole lesbian plot that plays out in the books, but what we do see is her warning her brother on not beeing discreet with his man-affairs. Also, everyone knows Stannis is at the wall, so there would be no reason to send Loras to Dragonstone, if Dragonstone is empty.



Now, we saw the Tyrells get screentime in the first episode, so something is going to go down. I don't think any Tyrells will be imprisoned, but i do think Lancel will snitch on Couger-Cersei, and she will be the only one arrested. Lannisters Lion is dead, their debt to big, and now Tyrell is the wealthy family left in Kings Landing. We still don't know where the Tyrell army and we have not seen any of Tarly at all, so i don't think that any Tyrells will be imprisoned. But if one of them is, it must be Loras, can't be Margaery, as she is quite innocent from what we have seen. But her warning is not from the books from what i can remember, and if someone are to be put to the black cells, it must be Loras. But i highly doubt it.



You would be a fool to arrest the best fighter in the Reach, maybe even the seven kingdoms, now that Jamie is missing his swordarm.


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