[Book Spoilers] EP501 Discussion

[Fiery Heart]

Valetudo, showing a gay man in a sex scene is not 'portraying him as gay', that is your subjective interpretation. Do you think D&D are intentionally emphasising the straight characters as straight every time they're intimate with another character? You are very much projecting your own meaning onto this. If people want to think Loras is 'that Gay guy' that's not because of D&D's writing that's because these people are essentially uncomfortable, or perhaps not familiar with, homosexuality. It should not matter at all how many scenes reflect his sexuality. And maybe some people actually like it that he's gay? Is that an inherently negative thing in your view?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Fiery Heart

[The Taxman]

Loras going to Dragonstone and sustaining major battle wounds in critical condition was the only time I paid attention or respected him in the books... and yet D&D couldn't even give him that.

And damn Dany... show a little bit more skin yeah? You're supposed to be showing half of your breasts every episode anyways.

[rayarts]

I wonder whether the whole Loras' sexuality will play a bigger part here than in the books, cause in the books it was no big deal, but here it is and so far we haven't seen Cersei take any action against Margaery. So far it is really hard to detect where the producers take it from here, but I smell differences coming up. Cant wait cant wait cant wait

[HouseHarrison]

If Loras' main purpose is to serve as a plot device to further Cersei's story then I say well done D&D! There's limited minutes people. We can only allow so many book characters to be fleshed out. I can sympathize with some of you thinking one of Loras' previous scenes was a tad offensive, but the fact that one of the above criticisms is that the Unsullied see Loras as the gay character is probably exactly what D&D want. It makes the power-play between Cersei vs. Margery more interesting and shocking IMO. You steal my boy? I'll steal your brother. I love the change and think it's an effective use of the TV medium. As I said before we only have so many minutes with these characters, so better to let the real players play their game and just use more of the secondary characters as the pawns they kind of already are in the books.

And yes, you may say Margery is more of a pawn in the books, but she's older and far more interesting in the show. Another change I welcome with open arms, because it makes the void created by the loss of Tywin and Tyrion far less detrimental to the KL politics.

-"We only have precious minutes to flesh characters out"

-Show spends tons of precious minutes on pointless Loras gay sex scenes/jokes

Bravo

[Arabian Knight]

Not bitchy. Depressed.

I have to say, I'm still not used to Sansa's new "tone".

That’s exactly why I’m not liking the direction this show is taking. they are changing whole allot of the personality of the char's. all of them have been changed unfortunately. in the book u get attached to the chars because its them they dont change and the storyline fits them and they is a direction clear for every character. but now with the show u like a person and next season they change his personality and u don’t like him anymore. in previous seasons its for 1-3 chars but in season 5 i feel its across the board. all of them have changed.

i dont know who i like now !! its really huge disappointment

[HexMachina]

Valetudo, showing a gay man in a sex scene is not 'portraying him as gay', that is your subjective interpretation. Do you think D&D are intentionally emphasising the straight characters as straight every time they're intimate with another character? You are very much projecting your own meaning onto this. If people want to think Loras is 'that Gay guy' that's not because of D&D's writing that's because these people are essentially uncomfortable, or perhaps not familiar with, homosexuality. It should not matter at all how many scenes reflect his sexuality. And maybe some people actually like it that he's gay? Is that an inherently negative thing in your view?

It's not just the sex scene though. Nearly every conversation in which Loras is mentioned has to make some allusion to his sexuality. Even his grandmother does so. His defining trait really is being gay. To contrast, you can look at Oberyn. Yes he was a very sexual character, and yes he had all those brothel scenes and there was quite a focus on his sexuality, but he was more than that too. Loras isn't. And, as I have said elsewhere, this is the second time his sexuality is being used against him/his family unnecessarily. Last time it was the Sansa betrothal, which I guess wouldn't have been so bad, if they had ACTUALLY dropped Dontos and not shoehorned him into 401.

[Valetudo]

Valetudo, showing a gay man in a sex scene is not 'portraying him as gay', that is your subjective interpretation. Do you think D&D are intentionally emphasising the straight characters as straight every time they're intimate with another character? You are very much projecting your own meaning onto this. If people want to think Loras is 'that Gay guy' that's not because of D&D's writing that's because these people are essentially uncomfortable, or perhaps not familiar with, homosexuality. It should not matter at all how many scenes reflect his sexuality. And maybe some people actually like it that he's gay? Is that an inherently negative thing in your view?

I understand that showing him in a sex scene is not the same thing as portraying him as gay and I've not said so. But if you believe that D&D are not trying to emphasize his sexual orientation, then you're being a little naive in my opinion. I'll try to prove my point comparring book Loras to show Loras.

On the books, Loras as a strong relation with Renly. After his death, he decides to stop having romantic relations (when the sun has set no candles can replace it).

On the show, during season 1 an 2, we see him having the same relation with Renly. There are sex scenes between them that seemed very normal and in place in the story.

In season 3, after Renly's death, we see him in a dinner scene with his sister, Joffrey and Cersei and then at Sansa's wedding where he has an awkward discussion with Cersei after their marriage has been arranged. Like before, totally normal scenes. But in between, we saw him having sex with his sparring partner (Olivar), then having a dialogue with Sansa about brooches. On season 4, he appear on the purple wedding where he has a discussion with Jaime, preceded by a long intense stare at Oberyn. On these seasons, he is also the subject of various gay jokes between other characters ( a sword swallower through and through).

Why do you think D&D added these scenes (sex with olivar, talk about brooches, stare with Oberyn)?

Was it to add something to the character? Was it to advance the plot? No. They were added to remember the audience that yeah, he's gay.

It's the same problem we had last year with the way they portrayed Oberyn as the brothel living kind of guy. This is not something I'm projecting because I'm uncomfortable with homosexuality. As a matter of fact, one of my best friend is gay and also find these scenes ridiculous.

For the last episode scene, I understand that it was necessary as a way to go on with the plot. But it was so criticized because people (and I'm certainly not alone thinking it) are tired of it.

It would have been the same if Loras was portrayed as a macho man and you'd replace Olivar by a female prostitute and his talk about brooches by a talk about boobs.

The problem is not that Loras is gay. The problem is that most of his screen time ( and everytime he is talked about by someone else) revolves around it. Imagine if Tyrion was only defined by his relation with Shae.

When you say that people may like that he's gay, then you are being homophobic. Do you like Melissandre because she's straight? That doesn't make any sense.

We like or dislike a character for what he/she is, not for his/her sexual orientation. And the thing is, show Loras isn't much at all,apart from being that guy that has sex with other guys.

[Nibbio]

It's not just the sex scene though. Nearly every conversation in which Loras is mentioned has to make some allusion to his sexuality. Even his grandmother does so. His defining trait really is being gay. To contrast, you can look at Oberyn. Yes he was a very sexual character, and yes he had all those brothel scenes and there was quite a focus on his sexuality, but he was more than that too. Loras isn't. And, as I have said elsewhere, this is the second time his sexuality is being used against him/his family unnecessarily. Last time it was the Sansa betrothal, which I guess wouldn't have been so bad, if they had ACTUALLY dropped Dontos and not shoehorned him into 401.

I really don't like that tbh

[Renhet]

The show is shinier, prettier and looks more and more expensive, yet the characters and plots are becoming thinner and more obvious. It seems D&D are worried that their growing audience will not be able to understand suttle hints and clever storylines. A shame indeed. The first season set the tone, a massive world with great many political twists turns and realtionship drama. What do we have now? The plots just thrown away, the characters and events re-molded by D&D- who we all know, are not half as good as storytellers as GRRM.

As someone mentioned, you can't blame budgeting issues on not including Griffs or ironborn when screentime is wasted on non-plot characters like Greyworm and Missandei, and gay sex with Loras again. I agree that Loras is an interesting character in the books, but the show is just using him as "the gay sex" guy. Shame. I am personally against all the use of sex in the show, I know why they use it but it's getting old.

The Varys-Tyrion arc was one that I was most exited about, then Varys just blatantly comes out as Targ loyalist and Tyrion doesn't even seem to care. This is in my view a complete change of Tyrions character. Very strange. The lack of Illyrio is troublesome, I hope we will find him as the season passes. But surley not. Let's not confuse the viewers-seems to be D&D's.

Concering Maggie the frog, why is she pretty? The prophecy might still come up, in relations to the walk maybe we will se it. I hope.

Good things? Jon Snows political ambitions, Stannis, Shireen making an apperance. Kevan, Lancel. Alot more extras in Kingslanding. About time.

Horrible as someone mentioned:

Sansa, the kid that killed Ygritte, no stench on Tywin.

[Valetudo]

It's not just the sex scene though. Nearly every conversation in which Loras is mentioned has to make some allusion to his sexuality. Even his grandmother does so. His defining trait really is being gay. To contrast, you can look at Oberyn. Yes he was a very sexual character, and yes he had all those brothel scenes and there was quite a focus on his sexuality, but he was more than that too. Loras isn't. And, as I have said elsewhere, this is the second time his sexuality is being used against him/his family unnecessarily. Last time it was the Sansa betrothal, which I guess wouldn't have been so bad, if they had ACTUALLY dropped Dontos and not shoehorned him into 401.

Exactly what I think.

Some people are trying to make it look like it's perfectly normal and that we don't like it because we don't like gays. That doesn't make any sense.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The Maggy the Frog scene should have been cut altogether, but at least it did us a favour by cutting the valonquar nonsense. Now Cersei retains her organic reasons for disliking Tyrion.

My impression of this season, based off one episode? The producers have realised the fourth and fifth books are rubbish, so are going their own way. Good on them.

[Valetudo]

The show is shinier, prettier and looks more and more expensive, yet the characters and plots are becoming thinner and more obvious. It seems D&D are worried that their growing audience will not be able to understand suttle hints and clever storylines. A shame indeed. The first season set the tone, a massive world with great many political twists turns and realtionship drama. What do we have now? The plots just thrown away, the characters and events re-molded by D&D- who we all know, are not half as good as storytellers as GRRM.

Yeah. Everything that made the show so good in the first place is being dumbed down. It seems that instead of keeping the good things they've done in the past (characters portraits and relationships) and cutting the bad (sexposition), they're doing the opposite.

[ADanceWithCats]

Was it to add something to the character? Was it to advance the plot? No. They were added to remember the audience that yeah, he's gay.

For all the talk about 'thinning' the characters (granted, not from you), you've still managed to miss the obvious. That scene does not just show Loras as gay. It shows Loras as gay and getting open, even indiscreet, about that. It shows Loras getting a 'nobody cares' attitude in a society that, actually, does care, very much, if they want to.

That's plot advancement, actually.

e:

The problem is not that Loras is gay. The problem is that most of his screen time ( and everytime he is talked about by someone else) revolves around it. Imagine if Tyrion was only defined by his relation with Shae.

OK, but what're the showrunners to do with him? Loras is basically defined as three things: -good in combat; -a bit dumb politics-wise (or just depressed and not caring); and - gay; and there's nothing for him to fight about right now (though if he survives to S6, I can see him taking over from book Randyll Tarly). I mean, he's not a leading character. Among the Tyrells, the smart genes are definitely passed in the female line.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ADanceWithCats 😸

[igrewupinKL]

Mance was kind've hippocritical. At one stage he says "fuck my pride" and then he says "i will not kneel" wtf?!?! Jon was absolutely right in calling him out on that.

I agree giving Loras a 'im gay, no really i am and i don't care if anyone finds out' storyline because he has nothing to do is really annoying. Make him kingsguard Cersei. Solves all your problems. But no, he is the heir to highgarden. they don't seem to care that much about continuity so why don't they just add in Willas and stop this nonsense. It makes Loras seem really superficial when in the books he was devoted to Renly and a D&M kind of guy.

So cringe at Sansa and LF. Those people who keep saying 'sansa is playing LF' are wrong imo. she didn't even get close to playing him in her scenes in ep 1.

[Valetudo]

For all the talk about 'thinning' the characters (granted, not from you), you've still managed to miss the obvious. That scene does not just show Loras as gay. It shows Loras as gay and getting open, even indiscreet, about that. It shows Loras getting a 'nobody cares' attitude in a society that, actually, does care, very much, if they want to.

That's plot advancement, actually.

You see that in the first sex scene between Loras and olivar on season 3? Well, that's more than I sow in it. To me, it seemed a typical bad movie sex scene, with the cringe worthy "I would like to see you spar with a worthy opponent" followed by the two of them having sex.

I wasn't talking about last episode scene, that was, as I've said in the previous post, justified.

[ADanceWithCats]

You see that in the first sex scene between Loras and olivar on season 3? Well, that's more than I sow in it. To me, it seemed a typical bad movie sex scene, with the cringe worthy "I would like to see you spar with a worthy opponent" followed by the two of them having sex.

I wasn't talking about last episode scene, that was, as I've said in the previous post, justified.

Nah, I saw it now. The previous one was about Loras being a bit dumb and falling for Littlefinger's spy upon learning that, hey, being an heir in a medieval society means that, even if you're gay, you're supposed to have sex with women at least long enough to get them pregnant. A sentiment I, as a modern person and not bound like this, sympathise with as much as I sympathise with Sansa's position when she married Tyrion.

The way I see it, they need a different Loras than the one that's in the books - they need Loras who is somewhat a wee bit dumber and a bit of a liability for Margaery and Olenna. Just like they needed Mance who was more of a leader and less a singer. I'm fine with that, because to me these are secondary characters and exist more in service to the plot than the primary movers.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ADanceWithCats 😸

[Holymoly]

Am I correct in thinking that this series is where they begin to diverge from the books for dramatic licence (seeing that the later books have become terribly dull.......and err non existent)? As such, presumably some of the things people are bleating on about being deleted may make an appearance in some other form later on?

[Zehde]

So, after seeing this episode, I am rather underwhelmed.

I have to say I liked the scene in Kings Landing. As TV characters can't talk to themselves, I take no offense that the things that go through Jamies mind in the books are adressed by Cersei in the show. An elegant way to do it.

I also liked everything around the wall. Great buildup of Jon as a good an Melisandre as an evil character through the strong scene with Mance burning.

Maybe it's not THAT bad, that they left out the glamour swap of Mance and Rattleshirt.

The waste of screentime for ol' gay Loras and the Unsullied in the brothels made me quite angry.

As the first episode is set up, I doubt we will see anything of:

- Aegon

- Quentyn

- Euron und Victarion

- The Valonqar

This is really sad.

I seriousely hope, the show doesn't leave out the Iron Islands and Dorne as a whole.

And should they really have the audacity to replace FArya Jeyne Poole with Darth Sansa, the show will massively fall from my favour.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Zehde

[protar]

Valetudo, showing a gay man in a sex scene is not 'portraying him as gay', that is your subjective interpretation. Do you think D&D are intentionally emphasising the straight characters as straight every time they're intimate with another character? You are very much projecting your own meaning onto this. If people want to think Loras is 'that Gay guy' that's not because of D&D's writing that's because these people are essentially uncomfortable, or perhaps not familiar with, homosexuality. It should not matter at all how many scenes reflect his sexuality. And maybe some people actually like it that he's gay? Is that an inherently negative thing in your view?

You know a lot of us here complaining about Loras' portrayal are in fact LGBT right? Don't assume that we're simply uncomfortable with homosexuality.

[The Deans of Qarth]

I'm a book reader who thinks Book!Loras is a murderer who got away for his crimes because of his daddy. I hardly think a man who kills his sworn brothers is loyal. He was just in mourning in the books.

Could you elaborate on that plz? Or point me to where this is discussed? :)