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Risto

[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XII - New direction

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I really have a bad feeling about this season. This Internet leak is a major industrial crime. HBO will lose a lot of money. Since I hated the way the show has been butchering the books, I'd say it was a divine justice, but I wouldn't dishonour such a wonderful cast and crew by making such a comparison. I really feel for them. This may be the beginning of the end of this TV show. Had I been a TV executive in charge, the whole season would be released on Netflix and the next season's budget slashed to the bare minimum necessary to somehow finish the plot. Really sad.

It's certainly one option. The other (and they could choose both) is that they no longer send copies to reviewers but rather host a mini event for them to show them the first episodes in a controlled setting. Is it customary for TV channels to send out almost half the season maybe even across the world before the series airs? If so, it's surprising this show is the first to get leaked.

All I know is D & D need to do some fancy dancing to explain why LF would marry Sansa off to the Bolton's?

If she's there as Alayne that's another matter, but still sketchy.

On the surface, they join their armies. How many armies are really theirs is a matter of political intrigue. In reality, well, you don't think Ulysses gave a giant wooden horse to the Trojans simply because he liked them and wanted to give them a gift, right? We know for the trailer that Littlefinger will tell Sansa to avenge her family - ie, kill the Boltons, somehow, or die trying.

So, what's sketchy? The Boltons get someone with the right family name to help them secure the North, they get additional men to fight Stannis, the Lannisters can't do anything about it because they aren't in a position to invade the North. Littlefinger gets something out of the deal. Everyone thinks they've won, until plans go to hell in a very GOT way.

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Just to clarify for anyone confused. The show's airing is now simulcast. Therefore, the time for it is always the same for everyone now. (which is pretty cool) That being 9pm EST. (6pm PST. 1am GMT. Wow....rip Europe.)

We don't even get it in England until tonight at 9. Simulcast it to the rest of the world, just not the country where half the actors come from? They wonder why it's the most pirated show in the world...

Anyway, original topic: I'm not enjoying how much Sansa seems to trust LF. At least there weren't any creepy make-out scenes. In terms of Sansa herself, I actually like her. She's not terrified of everyone and everything anymore.

TWOW

So they've moved down to the Gates of the Moon, right? Does anyone else think that having Sweetrobin training for battle means they're going to include the tourney for his Winged Knights, and therefore probably Harry the Heir, in this season?

Has there been anyone cast for Harry the Heir, or are they going to merge him with someone, or cut that story completely, or what?

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We don't even get it in England until tonight at 9. Simulcast it to the rest of the world, just not the country where half the actors come from? They wonder why it's the most pirated show in the world...

Anyway, original topic: I'm not enjoying how much Sansa seems to trust LF. At least there weren't any creepy make-out scenes. In terms of Sansa herself, I actually like her. She's not terrified of everyone and everything anymore.

TWOW

So they've moved down to the Gates of the Moon, right? Does anyone else think that having Sweetrobin training for battle means they're going to include the tourney for his Winged Knights, and therefore probably Harry the Heir, in this season?

Has there been anyone cast for Harry the Heir, or are they going to merge him with someone, or cut that story completely, or what?

I don't think they'll include HtH. I'll be surprised if Robin Arryn even appears later on. I don't think Sansa trusts Littlefinger, I think she sees him as her best option so far, among a large set of bad options. She is asking him if he even trusts the carriage driver, she's certainly not trusting him.

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Roose wouldn't be interested in Ramsay marrying LF's bastard daughter Alayne, only a Stark daughter. In the books it's fArya, the show can make a short cut and race ahead by using real Sansa Stark. And for the show it makes sense, as Sansa gets repeatedly married off or bethroted to men that make you cringe, but it always remains unconsummated. Remember that the Stark children were already cast to be older from the get go, than GRRM has them in the books. GRRM was going to solve the age issue, by jumping 5 years ahead, but then dropped that idea for some of the needed narrative of a few POV characters. And because of dropping the 5 year gap, he needed to drag in subplots for the other POV characters to give them storytime and development as well. The show cast older Stark children, so they can afford to skip subplots (even if we find it interesting: no Aegon, no Alayne at the Vale, no fArya).



Of course, we know what happened to fArya and we dread happening that to Sansa. But do you really believe the show will let it get that far? Stannis already said he plans to march on WF and kick out the Boltons. So, I suspect any consummation of a marriage with Ramsay will be ruined by Stannis the Man. And then of course there's Theon as Reek who gets to rescue a real Stark and redeemed for the Unspoiled before anything truly dreadful can happen to her. On top of that, we know from the books Stannis will ask Jon to be lord of WF, and that he'll refuse. Stannis finding Sansa Stark saved by Theon at WF will make things much simpler.



And then there's Brienne's arch. We know from the trailers that she'll end up in some winterlike setting, which could mean the Wall or WF. With no LS, and Jaime in Dorne, my bet would be on Brienne and Podrick taking up the role of the wildlings at WF in the books, unless they keep her at a campfire forever in Riverrun, kinda like they keep Gendry rowing.



So, a planned marriage of Sansa Stark with Ramsay Bolton makes show-sense, and she'll have Theon, Brienne, Podrick and Stannis around to keep her from Ramsay truly hurting her as he hurt fArya.


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I guess it's just the purist in me that can't help but cringe at where Sansa's arc seems to be going this season. I will agree, however, that it makes sense for the show. It does make a few of the future events a bit more interesting though. Theon rescuing an actual Stark and taking her to Stannis would basically give Stannis the North. It'd also be interesting to see someone who is very well versed in the GNC to extrapolate how Sansa's new arc could potentially unravel parts of the theory. Will Stannis still send Davos to White Harbor to rally the Manderly's now that he'll have an actual Stark? If that doesn't happen, then Davos never goes to Skagos to find Rickon.



The show could be trying to cut out that storyline and just have the northern lords gather for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. Frey pies better still be on. I'm not as well versed in all the workings of the GNC, but it would be a very interesting post to read if someone were to make it :). With that being said, I like what Sansa's potential new arc means for Theon. His redemption would be all the more powerful for the Unsullied. I guess we'll just have to see how the rest of the season plays out. I've no doubt that by the end of the season, we'll be in unchartered territory in some character's storylines. It's both exciting, not knowing what will be happening, but also depressing since the new material will be out before the book. It's always sad to analyze how the show-changes debunk certain theories since D&D know how GRRM plans to finish the story. Guess we'll just have to go along for the ride.



HtH seems like it is likely to be out the window, which is sad because I'm more partial to Sansa's book arc more than where her show arc seems to be going. I too do not enjoy how much Sansa seems to trust LF. Hopefully Theon manages to throw a wrinkle in LF's plan before Ramsay does any real harm to Sansa. But then again, we could all be wrong and maybe LF doesn't plan to have Sansa marry Ramsay ;). I doubt that though.


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Leaks are not tragedies for crying out loud. Clearly, HBO's business model leaves a great deal to be desired.



Selling the whole season up front should be one option. Why, after waiting nearly a year, should people be forced to a tv schedule which doles out one episode at a time? And giving four episodes to reviewers was just dumb. Somebody made a huge mistake.



This is the 21st century.



A tragedy. Holy cow. Death at a young age is a tragedy. Stealing a tv show is not a tragedy. Get some sense moderators. After all, you need to be respected for you to do your job.


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I could see Brienne/Pod replacing Mance and the spearwives, but I don't see Sansa going with them. It's more likely something like:



"Come with us, Sansa!"


"No"


"You're surrounded by enemies"


"I know. I have them right where I want them"



Sophie did say Sansa was a sort of prisoner who manipulates her captors and who endures in the hope of meeting her brothers again. But I can't see a coming of age story including forced zoophilia. Remember, Jeyne's story is about Theon. Sansa' story is about Sansa. They can't be the same.



I can totally see Sansa saying the "The North Remembers" speech to Theon, Pod or someone else later on the season.



And with a real Stark, wouldn't it make sense for the Boltons to invite Jon to the wedding? Of course, Jon has a visit to Hardhome schedule, but maybe he can make room in his busy agenda for some family time?


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Leaks are not tragedies for crying out loud. Clearly, HBO's business model leaves a great deal to be desired.

Selling the whole season up front should be one option. Why, after waiting nearly a year, should people be forced to a tv schedule which doles out one episode at a time? And giving four episodes to reviewers was just dumb. Somebody made a huge mistake.

This is the 21st century.

A tragedy. Holy cow. Death at a young age is a tragedy. Stealing a tv show is not a tragedy. Get some sense moderators. After all, you need to be respected for you to do your job.

I agree. I don't think HBO has the show finished already, though. Last year they've doing CGI until the last possible minute.

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I guess it's just the purist in me that can't help but cringe at where Sansa's arc seems to be going this season. I will agree, however, that it makes sense for the show. It does make a few of the future events a bit more interesting though. Theon rescuing an actual Stark and taking her to Stannis would basically give Stannis the North. It'd also be interesting to see someone who is very well versed in the GNC to extrapolate how Sansa's new arc could potentially unravel parts of the theory. Will Stannis still send Davos to White Harbor to rally the Manderly's now that he'll have an actual Stark? If that doesn't happen, then Davos never goes to Skagos to find Rickon.

The show could be trying to cut out that storyline and just have the northern lords gather for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. Frey pies better still be on. I'm not as well versed in all the workings of the GNC, but it would be a very interesting post to read if someone were to make it :). With that being said, I like what Sansa's potential new arc means for Theon. His redemption would be all the more powerful for the Unsullied. I guess we'll just have to see how the rest of the season plays out. I've no doubt that by the end of the season, we'll be in unchartered territory in some character's storylines. It's both exciting, not knowing what will be happening, but also depressing since the new material will be out before the book. It's always sad to analyze how the show-changes debunk certain theories since D&D know how GRRM plans to finish the story. Guess we'll just have to go along for the ride.

HtH seems like it is likely to be out the window, which is sad because I'm more partial to Sansa's book arc more than where her show arc seems to be going. I too do not enjoy how much Sansa seems to trust LF. Hopefully Theon manages to throw a wrinkle in LF's plan before Ramsay does any real harm to Sansa. But then again, we could all be wrong and maybe LF doesn't plan to have Sansa marry Ramsay ;). I doubt that though.

Why would Ramsay Bolton want to marry Sansa Stark Lannister? Sansa is married to Tyrion Lannister; and there has been no annulment; so any marriage Ramsay has with Sansa could not stand, their kids would be bastards.

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Why would Ramsay Bolton want to marry Sansa Stark Lannister? Sansa is married to Tyrion Lannister; and there has been no annulment; so any marriage Ramsay has with Sansa could not stand, their kids would be bastards.

A non consummated marriage can be annulled. And it's not as if Tyrion is arround to protest an annullment.

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As it was mentioned: Brienne going north to Sansa....that brings something to my mind again which i wanted to forget: This show has massive foreshadowing spoilers in it ! As we know, the showrunners know exactly what happens to each character, so they may change the story a bit, but the outcome will be the same and they give away some clues.



One of those clues might be Brienne killing Stannis. In the book it isnt mentioned much, but on the show Brienne keeps talking about killing Stannis, even in season 4 iirc, long after Renly's death. All that talking and her going after Sansa to Winterfell, where Stannis is going too, makes it very likely she actually will have a confrontation with him if not actually kill him



Needless to say, I dont like the spoiler and I even less like the content of that. The rightful king getting killed by Brienne because of his brother? It also would be GRRM like....remember how Stannis often mentions Renly's peach, that it haunts him.


Not the end I want for him


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I really have a bad feeling about this season. This Internet leak is a major industrial crime. HBO will lose a lot of money. Since I hated the way the show has been butchering the books, I'd say it was a divine justice, but I wouldn't dishonour such a wonderful cast and crew by making such a comparison. I really feel for them. This may be the beginning of the end of this TV show. Had I been a TV executive in charge, the whole season would be released on Netflix and the next season's budget slashed to the bare minimum necessary to somehow finish the plot. Really sad.

Wow, that's pretty extreme point of view.

We know you HATE the show and if you were TV executive in charge, the show would be cancelled or its budget slashed to "bare minimum" back in season 3 or 4, unfortunately for you, most of us love it and luckily for us, the four (out of 10) leaked episodes would not make HBO cancel the show or slash its budget.

The only reason to do so, if Show ratings fall and reviews for this season and next are bad, so far its not the case. I suspect that the only thing that would change is that HBO will stop sending out advanced previews of its episodes to reviewers on tape or will have them streamed instead (with an access password mailed to each reviewer)

(HBO been sending out tapes of first 4 episodes of season to reviewers for the last couple of years, at least, reviewers at hitfix.com have commented that the reason their reviews for first couple of episodes in the season (3 and 4) was released was fast, was because they watched the first 4 episodes in advance and then every time season hit episode 5, they warned that their next review would take at least twice as long because they didn't have episodes 5+ in advance. I remember reading that line last year and year before)

I suspect that HBO will also compare ratings for the first 4 leaked episodes to other 6 episodes that weren't leaked and then make their decision according to the impact of leak on ratings. If there is a significant difference, they will take some action about not allowing anyone outside of HBO to get advanced copies of first few episodes of the season, if there is zero difference on the TV rating and online streaming ratings (from HBO GO and LIVE), than HBO will most like do nothing substantial except crack down harder on illegal downloads.

I personally saw those leaked episodes posted online, and just completely refused to watch it. For me, Sunday nights with new GOT episode is an event, I hate to spoil it!

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What on earth? Why would they do this?

Benioff and Weiss do not like the Riverlands and Vale narratives.

Benioff and Weiss want to limit the number of characters they introduce.

Benioff and Weiss like to condense, amalgamate, and skip ahead whenever possible.

To me it seems like the they simply gave Sansa, Brienne and Jaime new material that still puts them in place so that they can rejoin their respective narratives in The Winds of Winter, having bypassed all the material that they hated in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.

Not that I agree with their decision but I do not find it to be a big mystery or anything.

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I really have a bad feeling about this season. This Internet leak is a major industrial crime. HBO will lose a lot of money. Since I hated the way the show has been butchering the books, I'd say it was a divine justice, but I wouldn't dishonour such a wonderful cast and crew by making such a comparison. I really feel for them. This may be the beginning of the end of this TV show. Had I been a TV executive in charge, the whole season would be released on Netflix and the next season's budget slashed to the bare minimum necessary to somehow finish the plot. Really sad.

Well, that would explain why you aren't in the TV business.

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As it was mentioned: Brienne going north to Sansa....that brings something to my mind again which i wanted to forget: This show has massive foreshadowing spoilers in it ! As we know, the showrunners know exactly what happens to each character, so they may change the story a bit, but the outcome will be the same and they give away some clues.

One of those clues might be Brienne killing Stannis. In the book it isnt mentioned much, but on the show Brienne keeps talking about killing Stannis, even in season 4 iirc, long after Renly's death. All that talking and her going after Sansa to Winterfell, where Stannis is going too, makes it very likely she actually will have a confrontation with him if not actually kill him

Needless to say, I dont like the spoiler and I even less like the content of that. The rightful king getting killed by Brienne because of his brother? It also would be GRRM like....remember how Stannis often mentions Renly's peach, that it haunts him.

Not the end I want for him

Yeah if Brienne gets to do this!! It would be fitting in so many ways, but not till Stannis gets Winterfell back for Sansa and the rest of the Starks. It might be that Sansa becomes the queen in the north. I'd like that.

She seems destined to be a virgin for a long time though. I think she is now too smart to be victimized by Littlefinger. He also might realize it is a threat to his future plans and as he was able to wait forever for her mother, he might be willing to play the long game with her too.

If I were Sansa, I'd claim she did consummate with Tyrion as a way to protect herself from remarriage to someone she does not want.

Stannis isn't the rightful king unless you are thinking like Ned Stark. There is no rightful king, just a bunch of people who want to rule and are willing to kill hundreds of thousands in order to do so.

I still think Dany will rule for a time. She is the more beautiful of the prophecy. That doesn't mean she will rule for long though.

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speaking of which, what did you guys think of her deeper voice?

i really liked it, considering she's now older. and it goes with the whole Dark Sansa thing.

I think that is her real voice. She sounds like a proper British Grand Dame, at 19 years old in real life. Wow?

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Stannis getting Winterfell for Sansa? Let the girl fight her own battles and get it herself

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