Yet another balanced review of Stannis [Book and Show spoilers]

[Mark the Red]

The real problem is that there's just this overall feeling that the show wants you to think Stannis is evil, what with the villainous music that plays every time he's on screen.

I find your comment very interesting, and have read it several times on this forum regarding the villainous "Warrior of Light" theme.

Hear for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWZ-iZ1DfS4

To me it doesn't sound villainous, but its certainly not a warm, friendly score. In a word the music sounds "SERIOUS" to me. A musical score for some dude not to be f*cked with. Perfect for Stannis.

Of course there is no right / wrong answer, but just the title alone in my opinion means Stannis is destined for great deads. Warrior of Light is quite a title considering the subject matter of the books what with all the darkness symbolism surrounding the Great Other. Lets hope, huh Stannis fans?

[TeethGrinder]

This is the Baratheon theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBZDYiqXKE

Or it might be more accurate to call it the King's theme. It reprised briefly during Tommen's coronation, but other than that it hasn't seen much use post season 1, as the only Baratheon action we've had since season 2 is Stannis (who D+D seems to think is evil and not worthy of such a glorious theme tune.).

Warrior of Light is by far and away the best theme on the show.

It's more bad-ass than evi, some versions of it sound worse in that regard, but the tune is epic. It can suit Stannis if used properly, it's his dialogue which has generally been the problem.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

I think Warrior of Light suits Stannis better than The King's Arrival. Robert's theme is too pompous and just doesn't match Stannis' more bitter and more no-nonsense personality IMHO. The more sinister bits of Warrior of Light are usually used only when Mel is the focus of the scene. Take Stannis' arrival in Braavos, for instance, there's nothing sinister or evil about the music in this scene.

[The Drunkard]

In the book stannis wanted mance burned not because he didn't bend the knee, instead it was because mance was a traitor. That's not the same motivation.

I'm aware. Accurate to the character would have been better phrasing, as this is the first time he's burned someone for breaking the law (i.e attacking the realm + not bending the knee) as opposed to "hurr durr worship R'hllor you guys" which has been his show-motivation up until this episode.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Probably an improvement over previous seasons, but still he is only burning Mance because he wouldn't fight for him, in the books you get the impression he does want to spare Mance, but his speech on duty and justice makes it clear he feels duty bound to execute a deserter and a traitor.

On the plus side they have shown him trying to make a peace with the Wildlings, and unlike in the books he doesn't seem to want to make them convert.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

He could have done it for his people. To be fair, I didn't see his death as heroic here. He acted like a proud selfish dick. He acted like Stannis in a bad day would have acted... :dunno: "Yes, I know me bending the knee would save hundreds but I would never bend the knee because me-me-me". Idiot.

Good catch. And yes, makes little sense.

I suppose this is the case of the show going to the same place as the books, despite they make changes on the road. Stannis NEEDED the wildlings and the North in the books. In the show, he only needs their support.

More or less agreed on Mance.

On the military situation: Stannis had 5,000 before the Iron bank joined him, now he might have a few thousand more, the show has depicted the wildlings as being as good as any other warriors, it's bullshit, but they don't really have time to develop complex military relationships or different levels of technology in the show. So even if they can offer him a couple of thousand warriors it is useful from Stannis' perspective.

[PuzzleTime]

Anyone else catch the part where Stannis voices his doubt about Jon's parentage? "Perhaps....it's not Ned Stark's way". I thought that was interesting.

[ambi76]

Anyone else catch the part where Stannis voices his doubt about Jon's parentage? "Perhaps....it's not Ned Stark's way". I thought that was interesting.

A bit off topic but I always found it rather strange that in universe nobody came up with L+R=J, or at least it seems so so far. Of course we the reader are ment to just slowly get that puzzle solved, but really: Ned comes home with a dead sister and a baby? Geez, what could have happened? I know some ridiculous rumors float around in universe but not that one? How convenient.

[Morvius]

A bit off topic but I always found it rather strange that in universe nobody came up with L+R=J, or at least it seems so so far. Of course we the reader are ment to just slowly get that puzzle solved, but really: Ned comes home with a dead sister and a baby? Geez, what could have happened? I know some ridiculous rumors float around in universe but not that one? How convenient.

Has there been any other coupling of a Targaryen and Stark in the past? Well, I guess because Jon does not seem to bear any Targaryen physical characteristics. At least not that I recall.

[aFeastForDragons]

Don't discuss the leaked episodes, many here haven't and won't seen them until they air.

[Sultan of Westeros]

Mance's logic of my people have bled enough doesn't make sense to me because he was marching his people to war south just a few days ago and there intention was not just to beat nights watch but subsequent northern lords too. But anyway logic doesn't apply to wildings i guess.

[clawson24]

Because it's the Baratheon theme, it would have been symbolic of the return of the rightful king (whether you think he's the rightful king or not (though going by your name it seems you do) that's how he sees himself.). I just think that the LoL theme tune really paints Stannis as a villain. People are accustomed to musical queues indicating certain things.

I personally hate the use of that theme for Stannis. It doesn't strike me as strong or bad-ass but just foreboding and dark.

[clawson24]

Exactly about the selfish part. As for why Stannis needs the Wildlings, he said he still didn't have enough Men to take Winterfell on the show. He has the Gold Company but he has to fight the North and the Freys, so not really innacurate. I wonder if Jon still hooks him up.

I really hope that the sellswords currently with Stannis in the show aren't meant to be the Golden Company. If so, you'd think there'd be a lot more mentions of the most expensive and skilled mercenary group in the world joining Stannis. Not to mention there's none of the hallmarks that would signify the Golden Company - elephants, elaborate clothing, soldiers of various heritage, etc. My interest was piqued when Davos mentioned the Golden Company last season but I don't think we're meant to believe that Stannis has hired them.

[Poète Lauréat]

Even though we've all seen the leaked episodes, do not discuss it.

[The Drunkard]

Mance's logic of my people have bled enough doesn't make sense to me because he was marching his people to war south just a few days ago and there intention was not just to beat nights watch but subsequent northern lords too. But anyway logic doesn't apply to wildings i guess.

Worse, I think, is his "being free means being free to make your own mistakes" logic... as by not bending he's taking away any choice the wildlings would have. If he did, they could make their own choice to serve Stannis or not, but he didn't, so they're all stuck beyond the Wall (as far as Mance knows).

[ctid1977]

Yeah, he should have knelt really, he would get lands for the wildlings and their families. Made little sense other than "we do not kneel" but his burning was powerful and well acted.

Stannis looks like he'll be coming off better this season, which to be honest matches quite well with how he is seen in the books. What intrigued me was that as he looks like he's not getting a wildling army so maybe, just maybe he'll have to go via Deepwood Motte!! to get reinforcements.

[roxWolfox]

Yeah, he should have knelt really, he would get lands for the wildlings and their families. Made little sense other than "we do not kneel" but his burning was powerful and well acted.

Stannis looks like he'll be coming off better this season, which to be honest matches quite well with how he is seen in the books. What intrigued me was that as he looks like he's not getting a wildling army so maybe, just maybe he'll have to go via Deepwood Motte!! to get reinforcements.

:lol: I cannot wait for you to get your 700th...just 41 to go!

[Sultan of Westeros]

Worse, I think, is his "being free means being free to make your own mistakes" logic... as by not bending he's taking away any choice the wildlings would have. If he did, they could make their own choice to serve Stannis or not, but he didn't, so they're all stuck beyond the Wall (as far as Mance knows).

It doesn't make sense because in the books Stannis was hell bent on executing him because he was a deserter of nights watch and stannis could not be persuaded otherwise. Here its like handover your army to me or die which takes away a lot of things from stannis' character

[Saltire Knight]

I like the Stannis theme, I think it fits Stannis on an emotional level. There's a sort of weary resilience and determination to it.

Does anyone think there's a chance that Stannis will be killed off this season? The bookies seem to think he will.

[Manderly with a Planderly]

There's a lot of criticism of Mance's decision in the show as bizarrely irrational, or at least the product of stubbornness or pride. But I think there's an alternative explanation, that Mance is making a consistent moral decision.

In his talk with Jon, he discusses the value of freedom a lot, and I take him at his word. He's got a political philosophy where he, personally, thinks it's just wrong to bend the knee in subservience. This philosophy was naturally attractive to the Wildlings, and allowed him to paradoxically unify them - not via authoritarian claims, but instead in virtue of sheer necessity and desperation. And while it may have been better for the well-being of the wildings to bend the knee to Stannis, it would be a betrayal of his deeply-considered moral views. Sure, he's probably wrong in his moral views - one shouldn't be so absolutist about these sorts of things - but this world is full of people with mistaken moral views, many much more problematic than Mance's unbendable absolutes.

But in addition to giving Mance more credit, this interpretation also leads to an interesting parallel between Mance and Stannis. Both have, to a certain extent, inflexible adherence to various moral rules. For Stannis, these rules align with the laws and norms of Westeros, leading him to take a very authoritarian stance. And for Mance, he is committed to what might be called the Natural Law, at least as the Wildlings see it - one where freedom, rather than obedience, is to be absolutely respected. Their absolutism is what gives them strength and moral superiority in the eyes of their followers, but also what alienates them from their opponents who might otherwise have been their allies. It also bodes poorly for Stannis's overall chances of survival...