ADanceWithCats Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 That's a chance. But it would have been a nice touch to let us know is due to Renly. We have to assume that's the reason :dunno: I really don't think it's the sole reason. Remember - he started acting out with Olyvar when he learned he was going to marry Sansa. Whether your reaction is 'poor guy' or 'boohoo, nearly all women at the time married men they didn't want to fuck', it's pretty clear that part of the thought process was 'hey, if I'm gonna have sex, I can do it with a person I actually want to have sex with'. Renly would have known very well, if he wanted to found a dynasty, that he had to make Margaery pregnant. And, Loras would know very well (if he really were the heir to Highgarden) that he had to marry and produce heirs and spares. These basic points are missing from the show. Uh no, they aren't. Margaery tried to get herself pregnant as soon as they married, even to the point of suggesting a threesome. Loras, on the other hand... yeah, see above. He didn't exactly react extremely well to the idea of marital duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I really don't think it's the sole reason. Remember - he started acting out with Olyvar when he learned he was going to marry Sansa. Whether your reaction is 'poor guy' or 'boohoo, nearly all women at the time married men they didn't want to fuck', it's pretty clear that part of the thought process was 'hey, if I'm gonna have sex, I can do it with a person I actually want to have sex with'. Uh no, they aren't. Margaery tried to get herself pregnant as soon as they married, even to the point of suggesting a threesome. Loras, on the other hand... yeah, see above. He didn't exactly react extremely well to the idea of marital duties. Margaery wanted to get pregnant. Show Renly hated the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caius Cassius Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Really angry they made him forget Renly and now all he does is fuck this pimp guy or try to have awkward smalltalk with Cersei. Book!Loras was so much better than this. They should look at Dominion for example how to handle queer characters well and not make their entire story about their preferences. (Dominion is really just a GoT/dystopia mix with angels.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I really don't think it's the sole reason. Remember - he started acting out with Olyvar when he learned he was going to marry Sansa. Whether your reaction is 'poor guy' or 'boohoo, nearly all women at the time married men they didn't want to fuck', it's pretty clear that part of the thought process was 'hey, if I'm gonna have sex, I can do it with a person I actually want to have sex with'. Uh no, they aren't. Margaery tried to get herself pregnant as soon as they married, even to the point of suggesting a threesome. Loras, on the other hand... yeah, see above. He didn't exactly react extremely well to the idea of marital duties. That's an explanation, yes. But, as I said in another thread, it's more complicated than that. Loras is not using his brain in this relationship (because it doesn't feel like it's just mere sex), and he keeps trusting a guy who has already betrayed him and will likely do the same. If they are trying to use the "oh, poor Loras, he was betrayed!" card, I'm not buying it. GRRM has called this trope unrealistic, the whole idea of a Lord falling for some common person due to their sassiness. And they are used twice: first Robb and Talisa and now these two. Oberyn's excuse for being so open about valuing people due to their actions not their origin is kinda explained because Dorne has different views about bastardy, but what's Loras' excuse? Just because he's gay he's a champion for equality? It makes little sense and Martin's characters don't act like that. Margaery wanted to get pregnant. Show Renly hated the idea. A terrible disservice to his character that haunts bookRenly now. showRenly was scared of sex because he had no idea how that thing worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 That's an explanation, yes. But, as I said in another thread, it's more complicated than that. Loras is not using his brain in this relationship (because it doesn't feel like it's just mere sex), and he keeps trusting a guy who has already betrayed him and will likely do the same. If they are trying to use the "oh, poor Loras, he was betrayed!" card, I'm not buying it. GRRM has called this trope unrealistic, the whole idea of a Lord falling for some common person due to their sassiness. And they are used twice: first Robb and Talisa and now these two. Oberyn's excuse for being so open about valuing people due to their actions not their origin is kinda explained because Dorne has different views about bastardy, but what's Loras' excuse? Just because he's gay he's a champion for equality? It makes little sense and Martin's characters don't act like that. A terrible disservice to his character that haunts bookRenly now. showRenly was scared of sex because he had no idea how that thing worked. Someone who is so ambitious that he attempts to usurp the Iron Throne would surely not hesitate to have sex with his wife, in order to secure his rule. Whether or not he was gay just wouldn't matter in that situation. I think it's very difficult for (mainly middle class) people today to imagine the world as it would look to a great lord, or king, in an aristocratic society. Martin actually does it very well, in my view. People who criticise characters like Dany for being entitled miss the point, IMHO. Of course she's entitled. All the principal point of view characters are entitled. As far as they (and the vast majority of Smallfolk) know, the world is meant to be run by people like them, because of their birth. Book Loras has the chance to opt out of this, by taking an oath of celibacy and joining the Kingsguard, because he's a third son. Show Loras, as the only son of Mace Tyrell, ought to be extremely ambitious to be one of the great men of the Kingdom. Mostly I enjoy the Show a lot, but I think some of the characters (and Loras is one of them) are twenty first century people in medieval drag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Someone who is so ambitious that he attempts to usurp the Iron Throne isn't going to hesitate to have sex with his wife, in order to secure his rule. Obviously. But they rather went for the easy laugh to make him scared of sex because he's gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Obviously. But they rather went for the easy laugh to make him scared of sex because he's gay. Perhaps. I'd recommend having a good read of a blog about medieval life called "Lady Despenser's Scribery." In one essay, she pokes a lot of fun at medieval dramas, simply because of the way they have people behaving in 21st century, not medieval ways. So, you get an aristocratic teenage girl bursting in tears because her parents won't let her marry the yummy latrine cleaner that she's fallen for, but insist that she marries another lord. In reality, aristocrats just didn't think like that. There's no way that noblemen like Renly or Loras would think "I'm gay. I can't have sex with a woman, " unless you had a situation like Rhaenyra and Laenor, where he agreed to acknowledge the legitimacy of any children she had by her lover. But, that was an exceptional case, and fraught with danger for Rhaenyra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renlyyy Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Cant D&D have Loras multitasking? As in cant he have sex whilst his in a tent leading the tyrell army to clean up Wot5k mess or in highgarden being a figurehead for Tyrell. Whatever happened to the Tyrell host? I would have thought that since TV Loras is the heir to Highgarden and an exceptional fighter that he'd be lead general for the tyrell army. And since Loras is the heir to highgarden and mace is a bad joke wouldnt it make sense for him rally the Reach army to rescue Margaery or does all that fall on Olenna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Obviously. But they rather went for the easy laugh to make him scared of sex because he's gay. I didn't think they were playing that for laughs, but that was when i was still giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I took the scene more to mean that Renly was overwhelmed at that moment...drunk, his wife is coming on really strong, and he wasn't quite ready for sex w/her in that instant, not that he wasn't ever going to have sex with her, because that would be nuts. I thought at the time that Ann Boelyn was going a little overboard, proposing a 3-way, but I let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I didn't think they were playing that for laughs, but that was when i was still giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I took the scene more to mean that Renly was overwhelmed at that moment...drunk, his wife is coming on really strong, and he wasn't quite ready for sex w/her in that instant, not that he wasn't ever going to have sex with her, because that would be nuts. I thought at the time that Ann Boelyn was going a little overboard, proposing a 3-way, but I let it go.Show Renly is a "mincing faggot" (to use Martin's ironic term about Edward of Carnarvon in Braveheart). Book Renly is tough and ruthless, though doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambi76 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Eh, "mincing faggot" is overstating it a bit, but show!Renly is a very intellectual, sensitive, pacifistic, modern twenty-first century gay dude in medieval drag. Him being terrified of a half naked "Margaery Dormer" was definitely played for laughs. D&D plus Cogman said so IIRC. They were even rather puzzled that Gethin and Natalie tried to act that scene serious. But since this is supposed to be about the portrayal of Loras I have to once more defend the shaving scene from season 1, because apart from the questionable modernisation of Renly's character it actually is the best Loras scene we ever got on this show IMO. His Macbeth whispering to Renly and his annoyed attitude at Renly's lack of any kind of ambition is exactly how I imagine book!Loras to be. I also actually like the shaving part, because that's just a classical squire duty to me (I don't consider it 'OMG so gay') and reminds me of the history that Renly and Loras share. Yeah, those were good times. Unfortunately it was all downhill from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiroVoid Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Yeah. Loras and Renly were good in season 1, and it is pretty disappointing they took out the scene with him talking about renly out in season 2. I could understand something like Tywin talking to Pycelle getting cut, but the scene with Loras talking about Renly was a really emotional moment between him and Margaery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Eh, "mincing faggot" is overstating it a bit, but show!Renly is a very intellectual, sensitive, pacifistic, modern twenty-first century gay dude in medieval drag. Him being terrified of a half naked "Margaery Dormer" was definitely played for laughs. D&D plus Cogman said so IIRC. They were even rather puzzled that Gethin and Natalie tried to act that scene serious. But since this is supposed to be about the portrayal of Loras I have to once more defend the shaving scene from season 1, because apart from the questionable modernisation of Renly's character it actually is the best Loras scene we ever got on this show IMO. His Macbeth whispering to Renly and his annoyed attitude at Renly's lack of any kind of ambition is exactly how I imagine book!Loras to be. I also acually like the shaving part because that's just a classical squire duty to me (I don't consider it 'OMG so gay') and reminds me of the history that Renly and Loras share. Yeah that were goof times. Unfortunately it was all downhill from there. Really? Yow. They're a lot more fucked up than I thought. I'm finding out all kinds of wacky stuff about the Ds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambi76 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Really? Yow. They're a lot more fucked up than I thought. I'm finding out all kinds of wacky stuff about the Ds. Yeah, sometimes they really just let their inner 12 year old out and it's a bit embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Meat Pie Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Loras is gay we get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFeastForDragons Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Its really annoying that he's known solely for being a raging homosexual when he's one of the top swordsmen in the kingdom and heir to Highgarden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 It's one of the worst atrocities the show has committed on a book character imo. He's so awesome in the books, a great brave warrior, one of the only good KG left, Tommen's hero, a man who gave up on love after seeing his love die and a mirror of Jaime when he was younger. But fuck all that let's just have him stand around or have gay sex, brilliant Dumb and Dumber! Yep. I love Loras in the books but he's just awful on the show. And it's NOT Finn Jones' fault AT. ALL. In all interviews I've seen him in it's obvious he's read the books and is a fan of them and is also disappointed with his character's show counterpart. How do they NOT realise how much they've butchered this character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Meat Pie Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Is the guy who portrays Loras gay in real life to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambi76 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 No, Jon Con. I think he got a girlfriend lately, since there is often a blond chick in his trekking photos now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Yep. I love Loras in the books but he's just awful on the show. And it's NOT Finn Jones' fault AT. ALL. In all interviews I've seen him in it's obvious he's read the books and is a fan of them and is also disappointed with his character's show counterpart. How do they NOT realise how much they've butchered this character? Theda! Good to see you man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.