[BOOK SPOILERS] The Portrayal of Loras

[Dagon]

A bad ass? Why? Because he's decently skillful at knocking people off horses in a tourney? Because he got beat by both Brienne and the Mountain in single combat? Because he was in one battle where his main role was to clean up after the fighting was over? Or maybe it was the first time he was actually given command and ended up nearly dying? What a bad ass....

I'm just not seeing why it's a huge stretch that outside of the few times in the books we actually see Loras, that as a young teenager/early 20 something would think about sex often. That's pretty much ALL I thought about at that age, and he has the means to do something about it. Character seems spot on from my POV.

One of my favorite parts of the episode was when he was trying to describe Tywin to Cersei, it was hilarious and as much as a character defining scene as any of the bedroom scenes everyone is getting all up in arms about.

Uh, Hi. He has burning oil poured onto him when he's charging the attack. That's one bad ass ticket awarded right there. If you disagree that's your prerogative.

The show Loras is an embarrassment for all the reasons people have listed above.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

I don't think the portrayal is homophobic. A more accurate word would be something that has been already mentioned: exploitative. I believe the show is trying to cash in on the fact Loras is gay to say "look, we don't just portray naked women! We also show that gay people have sex and that's ok!". And they keep insisting on that. And insisting on that. And insisting on that. We. Got. It. Loras is gay and he likes sex with men. Can we move on to the many other layers the character have and aren't gay stereotypes?

Yesterday, I talked with an Unsullied friend about how the episode is receiving bad critiques about the portrayal of Loras. He told me "why? Loras has always been portrayed the same in past seasons". Then, I explained him what bookLoras is really like. As he hasn't read, I explained him Loras has very much chosen a life of celibacy in the KG because his heart is broken by losing Renly. He then understood why we're mad.

I think the mistake HBO is making is one very subtle (or no so subtle for some). Yes, they do portray a healthy gay man who is involved in a healthy fully consensual relationship with some other guy, despite this guy is not noble and Loras is a Lord (or a heir). But that is not Loras. They want to shape Loras in the way they believe he should be and pretend they can get away with it because they believe some LGTB would feel "represented". The problem is that not every LGTB people define themselves by their sexuality. Of course, I've met some that would never stop remind you how much they have sex with people of their same sex, but some others have more depth. Loras have more depth, but I'm not so sure how much they -or how good they could pull it out- a celibate gay man. Maybe they feel they could offend someone by pretending Loras got himself in a closet out of grief :dunno:

You know what's the saddest thing? That Kit and Emilia have this vibe about feeling the same. :dunno:

Agree with everything you (and everyone else, really) has said. So much for "once the sun has set, no candle can replace it". That is the moment that made me love Loras (he was kind of an arrogant jackass before that)... there's so many missed opportunities with his character!

I guess they've simplified him to "token gay guy" to use as a plot device for when the Faith re-arms.

[Winter's Knight]

Uhh Loras did not lose against the Mountain-that's why the dude tried to kill him, remeber?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Book!Loras was arrogant true,but he was also a smartass. He was loyal, he loved his sister, he was still mourning Renly at the end of Storm-so much so that even Jaime felt bad for him, he was a good fighter.

He didn't just feel bad for him. Jaime UNDERSTOOD that, deep deep below his image of arrogance and pride, Loras' feelings for Renly were real and honest, hence, his acceptance when he said that he would serve Tommen to death but would never betray Renly's memory. That's something Jaime, a pov, can see in his own persona, and something his show counterpart said: you can't choose who you love. Or maybe is the fact Jaime fucks his sister that he's a not-judging guy about who others have feelings for. Compare that to Cersei who didn't want Loras around Tommen because he was going to "catch the gayness" or something. The opinion both twins have about Loras also serves us to find out what are their opinions about love: Cersei sees the superficial fact of Loras being gay and even shunned him because of that. Jaime saw him as a person who loved another person who happens to also be a man.

[teemo]

Why is everyone going crazy over the Loras sex scene? How in the world do you people find it offensive and homophobic?? Loras has been portrayed as gay since S1 none of this is new I don't get what all the commotion is about...D&D are anything but homophobic they are both very Liberal. Oh and their both Jewish too.

Yeah bookLoras is portrayed differently than showLoras not a surprise a lot of things are different in the show from the books, even though bookLoras was also gay.

I'm pretty sure you can be liberal and Jewish and still have homophobia in your writing.

[Dagon]

I'm pretty sure you can be liberal and Jewish and still have homophobia in your writing.

:lol: quite true.

I think the basic takeaway here is in the show his homosexuality seems to be the main focal point of his character, instead of just an additional element of his personality. As someone mentioned earlier, it's not necessarily homophobic as much as it is exploitative (might have been Jon Con.)

I can't grasp what his main purpose is on the show at this point besides providing some comic relief and maybe somehow being a factor in Cersei's coming trial. In the books I really dug his youthful aggressiveness and intense desire for glory. That seems to be missing from the show.

[Pod The Impaler]

What do you think of how he is portrayed? It's a bit different since he's not KG, but he's not what I imagined.

The problem I see with the show Tyrells is that Garlan and Willas seem to have been deleted, and though minor, with them being missing, it puts everything on Loras' shoulders and as a character he's just not been at that level.

Loras has so far been Gay Fanservice Guy in the show. Not much impact on anything.

There were ample storyline opportunities for Loras to become KG while Joffrey was still alive, and indeed, some rationale for it afterwards too.

So... will the show actually go there? They should - it makes little sense to just have him lurking around doing basically nothing as Cersei's semi-betrothed.

What worked: Loras told Renly that he is a good warrior because he works at it, then convinces Renly to make a play to be king. At least the show threw a line in there where Loras seems to feel guilty about convincing Renly to declare himself king, but otherwise Loras has not mourned for Renly much at all.

Loras (in the most recent episode) at least got to complain to Margaery how he basically doesn't care what King's Landing thinks of his trysts, because pretty much everyone knows already - and because he hates King's Landing for the kind of place where everyone is always sticking their noses into other peoples' business. (Interesting, because you'd think he was outwardly the sort of guy who'd love such a place.)

In any case, I'd rate Loras as having had few bright spots in what's been otherwise a fairly dull character - it's like the show does not know what to do with him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just to point out that some of the most racist people I've met in my life were liberals... it's not... exclusive. :lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In any case, I'd rate Loras as having had few bright spots in what's been otherwise a fairly dull character - it's like the show does not know what to do with him.

It's not "like". That's exactly the problem. And it's a problem they have caused themselves.

It would be easy to simply send Loras back to Highgarden or, dunno, kill him. But then, they would create a hole in HG inheritance (not that those details matter now). So, he can't just die or go away. Why can't they make him a KG already? Because Loras, being the heir, cannot be a KG. Again, something they caused themselves by not just say "oh, btw, we have a brother called Willas. he's in HG". This is the problem they cause by changing things for the sake of it.

[Lord Varys]

There aren't any Tyrells in the show. Loras is a non-character, Mace is a very bad joke, and Margaery and Olenna are for some reason women who rule their family - which makes no sense in a society as misogynistic as TV Westeros. Nothing suggests that women can rule in Dorne in the show, and neither are any ruling ladies mentioned nor are Myrcella or Shireen considered to be in line to the Iron Throne.

Considering the inconsistencies in the show the Highgarden inheritance shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I suppose Loras and Mace will both die this season, and then Willas or Garlan could show up as Mace's younger brothers or cousins - the next in line after show Loras.

[Cas Stark]

It's not "like". That's exactly the problem. And it's a problem they have caused themselves.

It would be easy to simply send Loras back to Highgarden or, dunno, kill him. But then, they would create a hole in HG inheritance (not that those details matter now). So, he can't just die or go away. Why can't they make him a KG already? Because Loras, being the heir, cannot be a KG. Again, something they caused themselves by not just say "oh, btw, we have a brother called Willas. he's in HG". This is the problem they cause by changing things for the sake of it.

I presume(d) at the time the show unceremoniously killed off Loras brothers that they had something in store for him....other than being some stupid figurehead for a 'religion is bad because: homophobia' storyline.

There is plenty of things they could have done w/Loras other than turn him into that gay guy. We could have been reminded he's a great fighter, he could have bonded with Tommen and started training him now that he's older, he could even just mope around and be sad that his true love was dead to remind us that some people in Westeros do have deep feelings and not everyone is a conniving liar. They might have expanded on a rivalry with Jamie...I'm sure there is something else they could have done.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

he could even just mope around and be sad that his true love was dead to remind us that some people in Westeros do have deep feelings and not everyone is a conniving liar.

They can't do that.

DON'T YOU KNOW THIS IS THE SHOW WHEN EVERYBODY IS AFTER EVERYBODY'S THROATS? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? NOBODY IS SAFEEEEEE!!! They have a reputation to sustain.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I presume(d) at the time the show unceremoniously killed off Loras brothers that they had something in store for him....other than being some stupid figurehead for a 'religion is bad because: homophobia' storyline.

There is plenty of things they could have done w/Loras other than turn him into that gay guy. We could have been reminded he's a great fighter, he could have bonded with Tommen and started training him now that he's older, he could even just mope around and be sad that his true love was dead to remind us that some people in Westeros do have deep feelings and not everyone is a conniving liar. They might have expanded on a rivalry with Jamie...I'm sure there is something else they could have done.

Agreed. Hell, sending Loras to Dorne with Gregor's skull instead of Balon Swann could've been a nice change

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Agreed. Hell, sending Loras to Dorne with Gregor's skull instead of Balon Swann could've been a nice change

Then he would be having sex with Trystane... :dunno:

[Good Guy Garlan]

Then he would be having sex with Trystane... :dunno:

No, Arianne could try to seduce him and it could be funny...oh, wait, that's right, there's no Arianne

I feel this thread is going to blow up in the coming weeks, by the way

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Shocking, instead of real characterization, the show goes for a stereotype - in this case, the stereotypical promiscuous gay man.

[falcotron]

Funny thing is my biggest gripe with the bit of Loras/male prostitute sexposition was leaving out the critical point that Highgarden and Sunspear really, reallly, REALLY, don't care for each other, and that any Tyrell going there better bring an army and stay away from the local harlotry with their scorpion traps :)

What bothers me most (although not until an unsullied friend pointed it out, but now I can't stop thinking it) is that Loras has apparently been exclusively sleeping with the same prostitute since Renly's death? Or, as my friend put it, "So Oliver is his Shae?"

Blowing off steam with a prostitute, or picking up a rebound for short time until he realizes he's just using the kid to avoid grieving, those would be believable ways of dealing with Renly's death.

Picking up a prostitute and immediately committing to him and going on to spend more time with him than he'd spent with Renly… Who does that? Well, Tyrion.

So, the one way in which he's _not_ a gay stereotype is that instead of being a promiscuous little slut, he's fallen in love with his whore. How sweet, just like Tyrion.

But Tyrion is full of issues that make it make sense, and Loras is almost the exact opposite. Tyrion is pining for his first wife who turned out to be a whore; Loras is pining for the purest and most virtuous man in history. Tyrion knows that nobody will ever want him unless he pays them to pretend; Loras knows that he's the hottest thing on the continent, and the only reason he pays for sex is so they'll be discrete (not that he even cares about that part anymore). Loras falling in love with his whore makes no sense.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I'm going to comic-con on the weekend and Finn is going to be there at a GOT panel. I really kind of want to ask him what he thinks of Loras, if he feels he's being given the stereotypical gay treatment and how he feels the show version compares to the book (if I get the opportunity, of course).

I wouldn't be surprised if someone else asked something along those lines first though.

Do ask him. I would. Im that ballsy broad who would do just that. Hell, if i ever meet Maisie Williams, i have a lot of things to ask her about the show.

You know what's the saddest thing? That Kit and Emilia have this vibe about feeling the same. :dunno:

I see.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Do ask him. I would. Im that ballsy broad who would do just that. Hell, if i ever meet Maisie Williams, i have a lot of things to ask her about the show.

There was a guy in last year's Comic-Con who asked Harington point-blank if he would show dong in the future. That was pretty balsy (I feel there's a vague pun in here somewhere)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So, the one way in which he's _not_ a gay stereotype is that instead of being a promiscuous little slut, he's fallen in love with his whore.

Didn't Olyvar already betray him? Not only he's an stereotype. He's an idiot stereotype. He's so into this guy that he has completely lost his brains, apparently.

Speaking of which, no one noticed something... odd about Olyvar being so damn casual about being there all naked in front of Margaery? Like, damn, man... cover your bits, that's your Queen-to-be. And a lady.

Also, his name... it's like... I suppose it went like this in the writer's room:

"So... what do we do with this guy... send him to the wall to be Satin?"

"No, people might think Jon is also gay or something".

"But Jon needs someone to mentor. You know, so people see he's a leader. You can't be a leader if you don't mentor someone".

"Yeah, but... we can't have Olyvar there. Loras won't have someone to fuck then and people will forget he's gay. Who could be... who could replace Olyv... I know! let's have a kid. Name him Olly... yeah, Olly".

"Oustanding"

"I know, right?".