[BOOK SPOILERS] The Portrayal of Loras

[ambi76]

Loras being offered the Black for his "crimes", would be a shortcut to geht him into the North if that's needed. Still unsure why the Tyrells would allow that though? Maybe in exchange for dropped charges against Marg (the adultery/incest charge is comming, I'm sure)? The trail by combat option in KL bores me a little, but GRRM seems rather enamoured with it.

[ADanceWithCats]

Oh, and it's book!Loras fans problem that we don't like idiotic show!Loras? Funny how this never applies the other way round.

What do you mean by 'the other way round'? It's the show!characters fans problems if they don't like idiotic book!characters? Because it is, and it's up to them to decide what to do with it. Personally, I don't enjoy book Brienne and Cersei, whom I both consider idiotic characters. But I don't think much about them, and content myself with the show version, whom I find preferable. I don't go to book forums and complain at length about them.

Seeing as how the entire Tyrell family was in KL, who was ruling High Garden in S4, Randyll Tarly?

I think a steward, possibly. Or maybe some guy from a lower branch of the family that Olenna's grooming for the actual successor? Who was ruling in Casterly Rock when Tywin and Kevan were out?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Seriously, if Loras gets put on trial for being gay....

Its gonna be a very bad day for me.

He kinda will

At least my Griff is safe :)

Well, hence my conclusion that he's in a depressive, self-destructive spiral. Hopefully, once married, Margaery will press on Tommen to dissolve the betrothal, or something. He can do that, right?

That's a chance. But it would have been a nice touch to let us know is due to Renly. We have to assume that's the reason :dunno:

Seeing as how the entire Tyrell family was in KL, who was ruling High Garden in S4, Randyll Tarly?

Their cousin Dorkus.

[The Eunuch]

I'm shocked by what I read here!

Loras is shown in bed with men, so what? Does it mean that he's a weaker fighter? No! We've seen him fighting against the Mountain, against Brienne, and he led the victory during the battle of King's Landing. He's doing no less than in the books. He's in King's Landing, who could he be fighting? It's just everyday life and court intrigues.

Some people here think that it's homophobic or a disgrace to his character to show that he is in bed with men. You are okay with the fact that Loras is gay but only if it's suggested and not seen, now that's homophobic.

G.R.R.M. did a great thing when he created a bad ass fighter who is said to be gay. The showrunners have done a bit more : Loras is not just in a rumored relation with a man, it's actually shown on screen like the others. Dany is shown naked in bed in the same episode, yet nobody complains. And in the case of Loras, it serves the plot too because Olyvar will play an important role in the future, as seen in the trailer.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Loras is shown in bed with men, so what? Does it mean that he's a weaker fighter? No! We've seen him fighting against the Mountain, against Brienne, and he led the victory during the battle of King's Landing. He's doing no less than in the books. He's in King's Landing, who could he be fighting? It's just everyday life and court intrigues.

That's not what people are saying. We had Loras in bed with Renly before and no one minded. Also, those things you mentioned happened in seasons 1 and 2, before they decided to make painfully obvious he's gay and reminding it us every other minute.

The problem many people -both LGTB and straight- have with Loras is that he has been stripped from every other depth his book counterpart have. We're not talking about changing his plot: he has completely changed as a character for not reason given. It has nothing to do with him having sex. Look, if they decide that Sansa will willingly opt for having sex in the show that wouldn't be a bad thing as in there is nothing wrong with Sansa deciding that on her own and making her own choices. But that is not Sansa (at least not yet).

It's the same for Loras. bookLoras was not defined by him being gay, but he was defined by his love for Renly. If Renly had been a woman who died, Loras would probably join the KG as well out of grief. In show, otoh, he has completely forgot about Renly, and it looks more like a casual affair he had so the Tyrells could have a grasp of the throne. Also, they have made him the heir of Highgarden but in the same way, he completely disregards his responsibilities and duties to his House and people, as he's more likely to go around gay touring the South with some prostitute instead of, dunno, being in HG ruling while his father is in KL.

[The Eunuch]

That's not what people are saying. We had Loras in bed with Renly before and no one minded. Also, those things you mentioned happened in seasons 1 and 2, before they decided to make painfully obvious he's gay and reminding it us every other minute.

You should re-read the first pages! Some people say that show-Loras is "offensive", "despicable", a "slut" and that it is "atrocities" because in the books he's a good fighter while in the show, it is destroyed by the fact that he's shown naked with a man. That's homophobic. He can be bad ass and sleeping with men, what is the problem? Some viewers just don't like two guys in bed together, they prefer when it's not shown. It's exactly the same when people say "I have nothing against gays, as long as they don't kiss/hold hands in public". That means : "I can tolerate gay people as long as they are hiding". That's homophobic.

Who did Loras fight in the books that wasn't shown in the series? What does he do in King's Landing that would not be shown in the series? Nothing. Except maybe standing quiet as a King's Guard. He's exactly the same, except that we see him more involved in the political plots, and he's naked two or three times with a prostitute spying on him for Littlefinger. That's exactly what it's all about in King's Landing : intrigues. And nothing says that he's not mourning Renly, but it's been 3 years now! And he's just sleeping with a prostitute, it's not love. I found interesting the comparison with the insullied who goes to the brothel to find affection in the arms of a prostitute. What is the difference?

And you're really wrong when you say nobody minded when Renly and Loras were shown together... That's simply wrong. I even read some comments by book readers who said "Renly and Loras are not gay in the books!". And many others who knew their relationship but said that it was useless to show them together. Some people should cure their homophobia and not blame the showrunners ;)

[ambi76]

Yeah, the homophobic neckbeard-bros will never get over two men doing "stuff" together onscreen, but thankfully this board ist mostly free of those. Now 4chan and some of the off-topic sport boards: :ack: .

I for one am gigantic slash girl and love all m/m stuff on screen to pieces. So no, I'm not complaining about that at all. I and many others here are complaining that that is all show!Loras is about. We would like some other stuff about that character too. Or at least if it has to be all about 'Loras being gay' make a better story off it. If we can't have that because he is barely a third tier character, then maybe he would have been better written out.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I for one am gigantic slash girl and love all m/m stuff on screen to pieces, so no I'm not complaining about that at all. I and many others here are complaining that that is all show!Loras is about. We would like some other stuff about that character too.

But GRRM has said specifically, he doesn't want that in the show, or at least, he's not doing that. He's not putting sex scenes between two males just because slashers and shippers want him to and have written to him to ask. And that's what they are doing. :dunno: It's called having a bit of respect for the guy who owns and created the whole thing, you know? Like JKR wanting the whole cast British.

[ambi76]

Sorry, JonCon's Red Beard but when it comes to GRRM's opinion on fanfic I can only :rolleyes:. Especially after he sold his story to D&D/HBO. He also never made a secret off being extremely uncomfortable with having to write m/m stuff (actual sex not just innuendo) himself and I really doubt that's because he wants to stick it to the shippers/slashers. This is getting a bit off topic though.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Whatever his reasons are for not liking fanfic, he still has a point and D&D are completely proven him right.

Besides, GoT is not fanfic. It's a "licen$ed adaptation" :lol:

[ambi76]

Besides, GoT is not fanfic. It's a "licen$ed adaptation" :lol:

Yeah. Sure. ;)

[Winter's Knight]

Whatever his reasons are for not liking fanfic, he still has a point and D&D are completely proven him right.

Besides, GoT is not fanfic. It's a "licen$ed adaptation" :lol:

When men do it with money, it's an adaptation, when women do it for fun, it's fanfiction.

And let's be honest, I've seen HS AUs with better adhernce to the characters than this show.

[Florina Laufeyson]

He kinda will

At least my Griff is safe :)

WELP!

When men do it with money, it's an adaptation, when women do it for fun, it's fanfiction.

And let's be honest, I've seen HS AUs with better adhernce to the characters than this show.

Tbh, GoT is like some funkyass AU.

[SeanF]

Hue. Tbf, id probably do the same thing. Cuz come on, who doesnt want to see Harington dong? Theres thirsty people in the fandom. And my mum.

Seriously, if Loras gets put on trial for being gay....

Its gonna be a very bad day for me.

The idea of the Queen's brother and heir to Highgarden facing trial for being gay would be a rather improbable storyline to me.

[dannyk65]

I can see it from both sides here, but it's difficult to argue that show!Loras has been stripped of his book!Loras depth. He is very vividly displayed in encounters with guys and not much more. There's much more to him in the books IMO.

Plus D&D took it to a whole other level with he and Renly shaving each other....

[SeanF]

I can see it from both sides here, but it's difficult to argue that show!Loras has been stripped of his book!Loras depth. He is very vividly displayed in encounters with guys and not much more. There's much more to him in the books IMO.

Plus D&D took it to a whole other level with he and Renly shaving each other....

Renly would have known very well, if he wanted to found a dynasty, that he had to make Margaery pregnant. And, Loras would know very well (if he really were the heir to Highgarden) that he had to marry and produce heirs and spares. These basic points are missing from the show.

[dannyk65]

Renly would have known very well, if he wanted to found a dynasty, that he had to make Margaery pregnant. And, Loras would know very well (if he really were the heir to Highgarden) that he had to marry and produce heirs and spares. These basic points are missing from the show.

:agree:

[VladimirDulud]

What bothers me most (although not until an unsullied friend pointed it out, but now I can't stop thinking it) is that Loras has apparently been exclusively sleeping with the same prostitute since Renly's death? Or, as my friend put it, "So Oliver is his Shae?"

Blowing off steam with a prostitute, or picking up a rebound for short time until he realizes he's just using the kid to avoid grieving, those would be believable ways of dealing with Renly's death.

Picking up a prostitute and immediately committing to him and going on to spend more time with him than he'd spent with Renly… Who does that? Well, Tyrion.

So, the one way in which he's _not_ a gay stereotype is that instead of being a promiscuous little slut, he's fallen in love with his whore. How sweet, just like Tyrion.

But Tyrion is full of issues that make it make sense, and Loras is almost the exact opposite. Tyrion is pining for his first wife who turned out to be a whore; Loras is pining for the purest and most virtuous man in history. Tyrion knows that nobody will ever want him unless he pays them to pretend; Loras knows that he's the hottest thing on the continent, and the only reason he pays for sex is so they'll be discrete (not that he even cares about that part anymore). Loras falling in love with his whore makes no sense.

Loras doesn't seem to be in love with Olyvar; Olyvar suggests further sexcapades in Dorne "based on his experience" so they're just having fun together it seems like.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Don't forget the jousting scene back in s1 when he handed Sansa a rose.

[HiroVoid]

I made comments in the previous thread on the subject that I didn't really care how almost every scene with Loras is basically a scene on him being gay, but I do agree with the counter-criticism that he's ultimately a small player who's more of a supporting character for margaery, so he can't be expected to really have that much diversity in scenes. I do wish he had more scenes that actually showcased him as a badass warrior, and no. He lost to the mountain, Brienne, and we didn't see him actually fight in the battle at blackwater if I remember. The only thing he's won is the joust where I believe it was stated he used a trick to win (can't remember what it was though).