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[BOOK SPOILERS] Mel and Jon Snow

Emperoreddy

By Emperoreddy,
in E01: The Wars to Come

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Chilli Hedge Knight

Chilli

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I have no idea why Mel asks if Jon is a virgin. I've not seen any hint virginity has anything to do with her magic or worship. It just seems to arbitrary just to be idle chatter on the part of the writers, though.

It's to see if she can convince him to make shadow babys. I guess convincing a virgin is a lot harder.

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falcotron Council Member

falcotron

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Another shadow baby? ;)

If R+L=J is not coming this season, then Mel's mention of Jon's royal blood is almost certainly leading up to her wanting to make a shadow baby with him around mid-season.

(And I'm willing to bet that they present it as an equal temptation to Stannis's. Because the thing you've dreamed of your entire life, justice, and avenging your brother are all nice, but, you know, tits.)

If R+L=J is coming this season, I suspect we won't see that; they'll talk about his royal blood in vague terms all season and it won't seem to go anywhere until the big reveal.

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falcotron Council Member

falcotron

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I never said that. I said that waiting until season 6 to DROP CLUES pointing to the bombshell is too late if they are going to reveal it in season 6 (which, as I also said, is my guess for the reveal).

But again, when has the show given us subtle clues that pointed to a revelation in a later season? Especially in an invented or drastically changed scene?

They could certainly use season 5 to drop the backstory that will make us care that R+L=J in season 5, and then do the reveal in season 6. And honestly, they already need at least a _little_ of that backstory this season anyway, because right now most of the unsullied I've talked to think Cersei was engaged to 2-year-old Viserys…

But I don't see them inserting hints that foreshadow the revelation because, again, the show doesn't do that.

Anyway, I also think it's possible they could do the reveal (to the viewers, but not to Jon) at the end of this season. Imagine the drama if they intercut the reveal with Jon reading the Pink Letter to Tormund. OMG, Jon is the One True King and the Savior of the World, and he just has to go rescue his sister first, and… wait, he's dead? And now we have to wait 10 months to see what happens next?" That's a pretty D&D finale.

The reason I wouldn't bet on it is just that it would be too clunky to fill in enough of the backstory to make people care that R+L=J, given the characters and situations they have this season. But then they're not above being clunky to push the plot forward, so I wouldn't bet too much against it, either. So, here's an example (and if they do the reveal this season, feel free to come back and point out that I only got 1/10 right or whatever…):

Episode 2: Barristan tells Dany a story contrasting Aerys and Rhaegar as a way of dispensing advice.

Episode 3: Sansa, at the crypt in Winterfell, hears the story of her aunt capturing Rhaegar's heart at the Tourney, from… well, nobody works, but maybe they'll just use someone who doesn't work, like Roose or Littlefinger or an old lady we've never seen before.

Episode 4: Jamie captures or is captured by someone Dornish and gets a lecture for no good reason about Rhaegar betraying Elia.

Episode 5: Dany asks Barristan to tell her more about Rhaegar.

Episode 6: Tyrion muses (for no good reason) to Jorah about how things would have been different if Rhaegar had deposed his father instead of (or at least before) running off with Lyanna.

Episode 7: Cersei whines to someone about how she was promised to Rhaegar before Elia or Lyanna ever met him, and everything that's wrong goes back to Varys p-blocking her back then.

Episode 8: A gravely wounded Barristan (I'm assuming either he's mortally wounded saving Grey Worm, or Grey Worm dies just barely saving him, at some point this season) tells Dany he has something important in case he doesn't make it, and we learn the prophecy stuff that makes R+L=J not just another pretender but possibly the savior.

Episode 9: They establish that Jon doesn't have Stark King blood, but for some reason Melisandre still wants Jon's blood and/or seed. And then it's time off from story for battle scenes, because episode 9.

Episode 10: The big reveal, then Jon dies.

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Sultan of Westeros Squire

Sultan of Westeros

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If R+L=J is not coming this season, then Mel's mention of Jon's royal blood is almost certainly leading up to her wanting to make a shadow baby with him around mid-season.

(And I'm willing to bet that they present it as an equal temptation to Stannis's. Because the thing you've dreamed of your entire life, justice, and avenging your brother are all nice, but, you know, tits.)

If R+L=J is coming this season, I suspect we won't see that; they'll talk about his royal blood in vague terms all season and it won't seem to go anywhere until the big reveal.

Jon Snow has king's blood either way even if they dont want to go into R+L=J, as far as they know he has Stark blood which is the oldest and noblest royal house in Westeros (case can be made for oldest royal house in known world) way older and royal than Targaryen or Barratheon. And being bastard doesnt matter as we witnessed with Gendry/Edric Storm

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Sultan of Westeros Squire

Sultan of Westeros

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Daynes claim to be older and were Kings of the Torrentine until the Rhyonar invasion.

But they are not so Royal as Starks are they? They were one of many petty Kings of Dorne (Yronwoods were High Kings of Dorne) before Rhoynar invasion, Starks were King in the North as recently as 300 years ago and title was revived by Rob Stark and Northern Lords plus there is that "supposed will of Rob Stark naming Jon his heir"

And by Royal house i mean houses that ruled kingdoms of their own like Stark, Lannister, Arryn etc before Targaryen conquest

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sj4iy Council Member

sj4iy

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But again, when has the show given us subtle clues that pointed to a revelation in a later season? Especially in an invented or drastically changed scene?

They could certainly use season 5 to drop the backstory that will make us care that R+L=J in season 5, and then do the reveal in season 6. And honestly, they already need at least a _little_ of that backstory this season anyway, because right now most of the unsullied I've talked to think Cersei was engaged to 2-year-old Viserys

But I don't see them inserting hints that foreshadow the revelation because, again, the show doesn't do that.

Anyway, I also think it's possible they could do the reveal (to the viewers, but not to Jon) at the end of this season. Imagine the drama if they intercut the reveal with Jon reading the Pink Letter to Tormund. OMG, Jon is the One True King and the Savior of the World, and he just has to go rescue his sister first, and wait, he's dead? And now we have to wait 10 months to see what happens next?" That's a pretty D&D finale.

The reason I wouldn't bet on it is just that it would be too clunky to fill in enough of the backstory to make people care that R+L=J, given the characters and situations they have this season. But then they're not above being clunky to push the plot forward, so I wouldn't bet too much against it, either. So, here's an example (and if they do the reveal this season, feel free to come back and point out that I only got 1/10 right or whatever):

Episode 2: Barristan tells Dany a story contrasting Aerys and Rhaegar as a way of dispensing advice.

Episode 3: Sansa, at the crypt in Winterfell, hears the story of her aunt capturing Rhaegar's heart at the Tourney, from well, nobody works, but maybe they'll just use someone who doesn't work, like Roose or Littlefinger or an old lady we've never seen before.

Episode 4: Jamie captures or is captured by someone Dornish and gets a lecture for no good reason about Rhaegar betraying Elia.

Episode 5: Dany asks Barristan to tell her more about Rhaegar.

Episode 6: Tyrion muses (for no good reason) to Jorah about how things would have been different if Rhaegar had deposed his father instead of (or at least before) running off with Lyanna.

Episode 7: Cersei whines to someone about how she was promised to Rhaegar before Elia or Lyanna ever met him, and everything that's wrong goes back to Varys p-blocking her back then.

Episode 8: A gravely wounded Barristan (I'm assuming either he's mortally wounded saving Grey Worm, or Grey Worm dies just barely saving him, at some point this season) tells Dany he has something important in case he doesn't make it, and we learn the prophecy stuff that makes R+L=J not just another pretender but possibly the savior.

Episode 9: They establish that Jon doesn't have Stark King blood, but for some reason Melisandre still wants Jon's blood and/or seed. And then it's time off from story for battle scenes, because episode 9.

Episode 10: The big reveal, then Jon dies.

When has the show dropped a subtle clue for something revealed later? How about Ned telling Jon that "you may not have my name, but you have my BLOOD". That's pretty damn strong clue that they are related...but that Jon is not his son. And I would bet actual money that we see that scene in the recap of the episode that his parentage is revealed. And it's what, the second episode of the series?

There are clues for R+L=J in the show...it's not going to come out of nowhere. But they have to start connecting the dots soon. They have to give us something about the ToJ, but without making it as obvious as in the books.

I see us getting an information dump soon...this season. I think we find out his parentage early next season. Those are my predictions...could be wrong, but that's what I've thought for a few years now and they've done nothing to change that perception.

Also, I have no idea how they would prove that Jon doesn't have "Stark King Blood"...because he absolutely does have it on his mother's side.

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Warsaw Hedge Knight

Warsaw

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If Melisandre is interested in Jon's royal blood, it's because he's Robb's brother. Or at least that's what EVERYONE thinks. If legitimized, as Bran and Rickon are presumed dead, he'd be the new King in the North, and this is what Stannis will offer later. Also, the Stark heritage is true, his ancestors were kings and she probably knows that. I REALLY don't believe this is a wink to R + L = J. It would make no sense at all.


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JonisHenryTudor Council Member

JonisHenryTudor

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Jon's whole "I want to be a real Stark" thing was the first thing they established about his character, and they hammered it home, and they're still making a point to refer to him as "the bastard" as often as possible 5 seasons in; there has to be a reason for that, and unless they're planning to reveal R+L=J this season or something, I can't see what else it could be but Stannis's offer.

Also, I suspect D&D would find Jon's struggle at the end of the book too subtle for their users to get, unless they make sure to remind us, earlier in the same episode, of him having rejected Stannis's offer.

This I believe to be true....

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