Heresy 164

[Armstark]

Armstark with all do respect i disagree and state with respect that not only are you wrong,but the characters who in the cases you state are most unreliable.Another reason is what BC states its a chicken an egg situation i will come at from a different angle.I bolded red part i did because these are two different things one i agree with and one i don't.You listed them as if they are the same.There is a difference between magic getting stronger and returning.

Why aren't the Dragons responsible for magic returning?

This is where you and the quotes you posted are incorrect and not a true depiction of the situation.

1.There has been Dragons in Westeros 300yrs ago when Aegon came with his Dragons.Was there anything magically different? No.Was there an upsurge in spells etc.Was there reports of the heebie jeebies more than usuall no.There wasn't.

Why magic was not gone from the world?

1.Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the JadeSea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. Why shouldn't there be dragons too?

2. You contradicted yourself a bit and i will show you.If it is your understanding with the Tyrion quote that he knows that magic and the old powers are the same and he went on to list shapeshifting,spells,etc.Then magic never died because all these things were still being practiced and done beyond the Wall,in Esoss and Asshai prior to the Dragons hatching and even before that.Now i still think Tyrion's understanding is incorrect and stated from what he knows which is nothing because the lists he spoke of could still be found as far back as hundreds of years ago.

Why is magic "stronger"

1.When i made the statement that the reason why magic is stronger because of an influx and concentration of magical forces in one place i am correct.And the reason for that is simple "Fire and Ice"..look up...Its the Comet.The only thing that explains why all these powers are moving into position.We go back to the house of the undying and we have them bringing up the Comet,we have the Direwolves(Summer) acting all finicky because of the Comet,we have Mel moving out to Westeros because of the Comet same with Moqorro.Even the political climate,Mormont's ranging all done under the explanation that the Comet is this sign and that sign.There is a reason why Comets are called heralds.It was the sign for all these forces to begin stirring.Not only stirring to concentrate and converge in one local.

So to come back to the red bolded.I do not believe magic is returning,because it didn't go anywhere.Do i believe it is waxing yes i do.Why because magical factions are stirring because of the Comet a herald to a great magical convergence and conflict.

Now what does that have to do with the claims of Ghost grass,phantom turtles,people walking naked,rats chewing off their tails etc.As cataclysim draws near and the end of an age draws nigh.Weird things happen people give into mania,rats chewing off their tails become the things that make people frantic.Dany is feeding children to her Dragons and much worse if you believe that .I can only say as these forces get closer and closer together things will begin to get more crazy...Crash crash crash until...BOOM.

I will note that Ghost Grass didn't stop growing period all over as it was said to still be growing in the shadow lands, Yi Ti.It only started growing in the Garden of Gehane again because of the concetration of magic around.

In the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are fields of Ghost Grass, with stalks as pale as milk that glow in the night, murders all other grass. The Dothraki believe that one day, it'll cover everything, and that's the way the world will end." ―Ser Jorah Mormont

What does this have to do with Thoros and what he did and didn't do it all comes down to this he is not responsible else given the same conditions.

1.Beric while he was still alive and yet gravely injured would have been healed by Thoros.Why did this kick in only when he died.Healing skills are one of their many traits shouldn't that skill have been magnified and Beric healed?

2.Thoros should have been able to use his flames at High Hill instead of it not working per the GHH's statement.Which means there is intelligence behind what happened with Thoros and Beric.

Word!

Well, it seems we talked past each other a little bit. It's partly my fault because i worded it somewhat bad (see my correction in post #373) I don't believe that magic was ever truly gone, just that is was much weaker. Tyrion indeed believes that there is no magic but that does nothing to his claim that old powers means magic. I see no contradiction.

Regarding the comet I agree with you but have to content that it could be just as easily the dragons that are the cause. It is a chicken and egg situation. Bran sees dragons in Asshai so that could just as well be the reason that there was still ghost grass growing there.

Can we both agree to this statement:?

Magic was never gone but is growing stronger now. The cause is either dragons (chicken) or the comet (egg).

[Blade of Sunlight]

Magic was never gone but is growing stronger now. The cause is either dragons (chicken) or the comet (egg).

I'm not certain this can be reduced to a dichotomy since other causes might be behind it. We see strange and significant magical events even before the comet or the dragons come into play, namely the increased action by the WW, the Direwolves, BR and the crow dreams, probably Jojen's greendreams, these might be considered part of the residual magic that was before, but to me they appear to be much too significant to be dismissed as such. This all could be attributed to the approximation of the comet, or it might be something else entirely.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, it seems we talked past each other a little bit. It's partly my fault because i worded it somewhat bad (see my correction in post #373) I don't believe that magic was ever truly gone, just that is was much weaker. Tyrion indeed believes that there is no magic but that does nothing to his claim that old powers means magic. I see no contradiction.

Regarding the comet I agree with you but have to content that it could be just as easily the dragons that are the cause. It is a chicken and egg situation. Bran sees dragons in Asshai so that could just as well be the reason that there was still ghost grass growing there.

Can we both agree to this statement:?

Magic was never gone but is growing stronger now. The cause is either dragons (chicken) or the comet (egg).

Ah you misunderstand me again. I don't think the Comet is the cause either,it was just a celestial sign that factions took to stir and it is those factions concentrating because of the Comet that is contributing to the Waxing of magic.

Think Star of Bethlehem that drew the Magi's.The Comet drew out certain factions towards a point.It drew the GS,COTF,wws out,drew the red lot from the east etc.

[Armstark]

Ok i just posted my whole bit and again will point out your initiall posts listed two things and now your back at one.

I 100% believe magic is waxing it can,and i even gave (2) reasons why i think that is.

My disagreement was the notion that "magic is returning" which implies that it disappeared and that is clearly not true.

The facts are not the problem in some of these cases..some its the conclusion being drawn.

Really?? Rats chewing off their own tail,a woman who mocked a warlock a year ago and is now walking naked,Tortoise mail.What does this have to do with magic waxing or returning.

Glass candles burning again goes towards my point a few Heresies well a back.The candles like fire are conduits portals whereby "someone' can access and manipulate.

Magic can be returning even if it never disappeared. At low tide there are still puddles of sea water around but when the tide comes the water is returning.

Everything Xaro listed are things caused by magic that were not happening before. Read the quote in context (I can't link the whole passage as I don't have the ebooks with me) and you will see his meaning.

What does this have to do with Thoros and what he did and didn't do it all comes down to this he is not responsible else given the same conditions.

1.Beric while he was still alive and yet gravely injured would have been healed by Thoros.Why did this kick in only when he died.Healing skills are one of their many traits shouldn't that skill have been magnified and Beric healed?

2.Thoros should have been able to use his flames at High Hill instead of it not working per the GHH's statement.Which means there is intelligence behind what happened with Thoros and Beric.

Word!

1. What healing powers are you talking about? I can't remember the red priests healing traits so I would appreciate a quote very much.

But I do believe that magical healing is not possible in Martin's world. We have not seen one single instance of it. Berric rises but he still has the scars and disfigurements. Bran will never walk again. Victarion gets a new hand rather than a healed one.

2. For me it does not imply intelligence behind it. High Heart is a magical place belonging to earth or ice magic or whatever you want to call it and naturally impedes fire magic. No intelligence behind it, just nature.

I agree with you regarding the old powers awakening, but as a quick aside, I wanted to ask you about this part of your comment.

I've commented many times in my Three Shadows thread that when Bran sees "dragons stirring beneath the sunrise" he's actually seeing the red comet from his extremely high vantage point. Some replies say I'm daft, others love the connection. My thinking is that within the red comet, Bran is seeing embryonic, in utero, yet to be born dragons stirring beneath the sunrise.

What I haven't mentioned in that thread is that I think this represents one half of an implied dichotomy:

1. On one horizon, Bran sees dragons stirring (Fire).

2. Beyond the curtain of light, Bran sees X (Ice) that makes him cry out afraid while his tears burn on his cheeks.

This idea relates to the heart of winter being an actual place, rather than an internal heart of darkness, and the reasoning behind my Ancient Others.

But anyway, I haven't had too many Heretics give input on that thread so I'm always watchful of comments that relate to Bran's Vision when he's in the coma, falling. So I'm curious what you think of that part, and what you're imagining when you mention the egg-comet connection. It's far from being the most controversial part of my analysis of the falling dream, but it nonetheless has produced some debate.

I am in agreement. Never thought of Bran's vision dragons as being really the comet but it fits beautifully with Martin's insistence of creating the chicken&egg situation which I suppose will be never resolved (just like in the real world). It is both the comet and dragons.

I always believed the Heart of Winter to be an actual place, I even believe it is an actual heart, white and swollen with corruption. A more powerful version of the one in the HotU.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not certain this can be reduced to a dichotomy since other causes might be behind it. We see strange and significant magical events even before the comet or the dragons come into play, namely the increased action by the WW, the Direwolves, BR and the crow dreams, probably Jojen's greendreams, these might be considered part of the residual magic that was before, but to me they appear to be much too significant to be dismissed as such. This all could be attributed to the approximation of the comet, or it might be something else entirely.

Actually no,again magic has nothing to the Comet.It only has to do imo with why forces were stirring,they took it as their time had come.Also,everything had occured in Game of Thrones including the Comet it can't be seen as a sequence.Because while the wws were on the move,the red priests were on the move and the DWs were sent south the Comet was high over head.Remember while in his Coma Bran saw Luuwin looking up into the sky with the scope. Lens came in the box with Lysa's note about JA.

[Armstark]

Ah you misunderstand me again. I don't think the Comet is the cause either,it was just a celestial sign that factions took to stir and it is those factions concentrating because of the Comet that is contributing to the Waxing of magic.

Think Star of Bethlehem that drew the Magi's.The Comet drew out certain factions towards a point.It drew the GS,COTF,wws out,drew the red lot from the east etc.

Ah yes, I got that.

I wanted to make a short, simple statement and thought you still could call the comet the cause even if it more of a reason or ... well, I couldn't think of another word ;)

[wolfmaid7]

Magic can be returning even if it never disappeared. At low tide there are still puddles of sea water around but when the tide comes the water is returning.

Everything Xaro listed are things caused by magic that were not happening before. Read the quote in context (I can't link the whole passage as I don't have the ebooks with me) and you will see his meaning.

1. What healing powers are you talking about? I can't remember the red priests healing traits so I would appreciate a quote very much.

But I do believe that magical healing is not possible in Martin's world. We have not seen one single instance of it. Berric rises but he still has the scars and disfigurements. Bran will never walk again. Victarion gets a new hand rather than a healed one.

2. For me it does not imply intelligence behind it. High Heart is a magical place belonging to earth or ice magic or whatever you want to call it and naturally impedes fire magic. No intelligence behind it, just nature.

I am in agreement. Never thought of Bran's vision dragons as being really the comet but it fits beautifully with Martin's insistence of creating the chicken&egg situation which I suppose will be never resolved (just like in the real world). It is both the comet and dragons.

I always believed the Heart of Winter to be an actual place, I even believe it is an actual heart, white and swollen with corruption. A more powerful version of the one in the HotU.

1. Its not the same thing hundreds and hundreds of years of clear magical workings doesn't say puddles.It has been constant not

2. I have to read the context,but still it doesn't take away what i'm saying its the concentration vs something disappearing and returning.

3. I was speaking of Vic's hand but i can see why that would be "healing" and by my example with Thoros my point is if he's never brought anyone back or has never sen this done.And the argument is magic made this possible.Wasn't it easier to keep him from dying?Why make the leap from getting better to coming back from the dead.

[wolfmaid7]

Ah yes, I got that.

I wanted to make a short, simple statement and thought you still could call the comet the cause even if it more of a reason or ... well, I couldn't think of another word ;)

lol...hehehe

[Rhaegarslance]

I'm not certain this can be reduced to a dichotomy since other causes might be behind it. We see strange and significant magical events even before the comet or the dragons come into play, namely the increased action by the WW, the Direwolves, BR and the crow dreams, probably Jojen's greendreams, these might be considered part of the residual magic that was before, but to me they appear to be much too significant to be dismissed as such. This all could be attributed to the approximation of the comet, or it might be something else entirely.

Those are all western magics. It's eastern magic that is returning.

[Rhaegarslance]

Magic can be returning even if it never disappeared. At low tide there are still puddles of sea water around but when the tide comes the water is returning.

Everything Xaro listed are things caused by magic that were not happening before. Read the quote in context (I can't link the whole passage as I don't have the ebooks with me) and you will see his meaning.

1. What healing powers are you talking about? I can't remember the red priests healing traits so I would appreciate a quote very much.

But I do believe that magical healing is not possible in Martin's world. We have not seen one single instance of it. Berric rises but he still has the scars and disfigurements. Bran will never walk again. Victarion gets a new hand rather than a healed one.

2. For me it does not imply intelligence behind it. High Heart is a magical place belonging to earth or ice magic or whatever you want to call it and naturally impedes fire magic. No intelligence behind it, just nature.

I am in agreement. Never thought of Bran's vision dragons as being really the comet but it fits beautifully with Martin's insistence of creating the chicken&egg situation which I suppose will be never resolved (just like in the real world). It is both the comet and dragons.

I always believed the Heart of Winter to be an actual place, I even believe it is an actual heart, white and swollen with corruption. A more powerful version of the one in the HotU.

MMD healed Drogo's wound

[Blade of Sunlight]

Actually no,again magic has nothing to the Comet.It only has to do imo with why forces were stirring,they took it as their time had come.Also,everything had occured in Game of Thrones including the Comet it can't be seen as a sequence.Because while the wws were on the move,the red priests were on the move and the DWs were sent south the Comet was high over head.Remember while in his Coma Bran saw Luuwin looking up into the sky with the scope. Lens came in the box with Lysa's note about JA.

That's precisely what I was saying, the waxing of magic is not necessarily caused by the comet or the dragons. I agree that it's hard to define a sequence but it obvious that the events I listed had occurred before the comet was seen, I did acknowledge however that the comet could be getting closer even before being visible, so the increase in magic before it being observable do not exclude it as the cause

[Voice]

I am in agreement. Never thought of Bran's vision dragons as being really the comet but it fits beautifully with Martin's insistence of creating the chicken&egg situation which I suppose will be never resolved (just like in the real world). It is both the comet and dragons.

I always believed the Heart of Winter to be an actual place, I even believe it is an actual heart, white and swollen with corruption. A more powerful version of the one in the HotU.

Cool. :cheers:

I don't think there will be an actual heart in the heart of winter, but I do have a theory I'm working on that isn't all that incompatible with the idea.

Those are all western magics. It's eastern magic that is returning.

Welcome to the forum ser, but I disagree. The direwolves have only recently returned to Westeros as well. Beyond the Wall is another matter of course, but the argument can be made that magic now ebbs greater in the West as well.

MMD healed Drogo's wound

Did she? Dany wanted to believe that was what she was doing, but in reality MMD was making his wound far worse.

[Armstark]

1. Its not the same thing hundreds and hundreds of years of clear magical workings doesn't say puddles.It has been constant not

2. I have to read the context,but still it doesn't take away what i'm saying its the concentration vs something disappearing and returning.

3. I was speaking of Vic's hand but i can see why that would be "healing" and by my example with Thoros my point is if he's never brought anyone back or has never sen this done.And the argument is magic made this possible.Wasn't it easier to keep him from dying?Why make the leap from getting better to coming back from the dead.

1. Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I believe magic was not gone but is less potent (maybe in some magical places more magic lingered) and is now returning to its former potency. Thus the old powers are awakening.

2. Well all these magical individuals and plants (or rather gardens) Xaro mentions were there in Qarth before but couldn't perform these deeds. Only now that Daenerys and the dragons are there they can. So I guess it goes both ways.

3, Why resurrect and not heal? Well, I think magical healing is impossible. In any case Thoros didn't know what he was doing and I doubt he ever was taught the 'higher mysteries' of his order like the ritual Moqorro performed on Victarion.

Edit: But I do think that there is something queer about Berric's ressurection because it was somewhat unique or we would have heard about red priests in Essos doing the same. I wonder if there is something special about Berric himself, maybe he is another secret Targaryen LOL

Cool. :cheers:

I don't think there will be an actual heart in the heart of winter, but I do have a theory I'm working on that isn't all that incompatible with the idea.

Welcome to the forum ser, but I disagree. The direwolves have only recently returned to Westeros as well. Beyond the Wall is another matter of course, but the argument can be made that magic now ebbs greater in the West as well.

Did she? Dany wanted to believe that was what she was doing, but in reality MMD was making his wound far worse.

Regardless if she was healing or poisoning Khal Drogo I don't think there was any magic involved. Normal healing is of course possible ^^

[Rhaegarslance]

Welcome to the forum ser, but I disagree. The direwolves have only recently returned to Westeros as well. Beyond the Wall is another matter of course, but the argument can be made that magic now ebbs greater in the West as well.

It's flowing greater, but it never waned like eastern magic did. Wargs, greenseers, etc. (the "western" magics), their powers never waned.

Did she? Dany wanted to believe that was what she was doing, but in reality MMD was making his wound far worse.

MMD did heal the wound though. Before the ritual:

When they were alone, Ser Jorah drew his dagger. Deftly, with a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he began to scrape away the black leaves and dried blue mud from Drogo’s chest. The plaster had caked hard as the mud walls of the Lamb Men, and like those walls it cracked easily. Ser Jorah broke the dry mud with his knife, pried the chunks from the flesh, peeled off the leaves one by one. A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo’s breast black and glistening with corruption.

“No,” Dany whispered as tears ran down her cheeks. “No, please, gods hear me, no.”

Khal Drogo thrashed, fighting some unseen enemy. Black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound.

After the ritual:

A dozen bloodflies had settled on his body, though he did not seem to feel them. Dany brushed them away and knelt beside him. His eyes were wide open but did not see, and she knew at once that he was blind. When she whispered his name, he did not seem to hear. The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

The ritual took Drogo's soul, but it healed the wound.

[Black Crow]

1. Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I believe magic was not gone but is less potent (maybe in some magical places more magic lingered) and is now returning to its former potency. Thus the old powers are awakening.

Regardless if she was healing or poisoning Khal Drogo I don't think there was any magic involved. Normal healing is of course possible ^^

As to both I agree. Magic has always been around but now its starting to mean something. As to Drogo my understanding is that a poultice was applied using the usual herb-lore, but he stopped wearing it because it itched. My mother used to tell a similar story of a neighbour who had a crooked leg because having had it broken and put in a plaster cast, the itch was so bad that he carved the cast off with a pen-knife and so the leg healed crooked.

[Voice]

It's flowing greater, but it never waned like eastern magic did. Wargs, greenseers, etc. (the "western" magics), their powers never waned.

MMD did heal the wound though. Before the ritual:

After the ritual:

The ritual took Drogo's soul, but it healed the wound.

My bad. I thought you were talking about her poultice. As to eastern magic, it was still around as well. Just look at Mel, from the east... or the Undying of Qarth.

[Black Crow]

That's precisely what I was saying, the waxing of magic is not necessarily caused by the comet or the dragons. I agree that it's hard to define a sequence but it obvious that the events I listed had occurred before the comet was seen, I did acknowledge however that the comet could be getting closer even before being visible, so the increase in magic before it being observable do not exclude it as the cause

Chickens and eggs again. One of the more sensible suggestions I can recall reconciling the timings is that far from causing the return of English magic [wrong book] the comet was drawn by the magic

[Black Crow]

And at this point as my bed-time approaches, its a suitable time to launch Heresy 165

See you over there

[Rhaegarslance]

My bad. I thought you were talking about her poultice. As to eastern magic, it was still around as well. Just look at Mel, from the east... or the Undying of Qarth.

I mean like greenseers and wargs (the western magics) have always had the same powers as they do right now. They never lost any of their abilities over the years. The practitioners of eastern magics on the other hand, lost lots of their abilities, and are only now being able to use spells that they used to be able to do. They still had magic, but they weren't as strong as they used to be.

[Black Crow]

Carry it over to 165 please, this one has run its course and a lock has been requested.