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Tracing Targaryen Blood in the Female Line


Mithras

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Penrose and Dondarrion



Garmund Hightower married Rhaena Targaryen and they had six unaccounted daughters. From these daughters, there seems a fairly good chance that some great or minor Lords acquired Targaryen blood through legitimate way in the female line. We know that Aelinor Penrose was a cousin of Aerys I and it is possible that House Penrose has one of these daughters as their ancestor.



Another likely possibility is the Dondarrions. Daeron II wed his son and heir Baelor to Jena Dondarrion. That means there is a fairly good chance that Jena had Targaryen ancestry too, possibly from those daughters of Rhaena.



In short, there is a fairly good chance that Beric had a drop of dragon blood.



Lothston



Lady Falena Stokeworth was Aegon’s first mistress. In 149 AC, she took the virginity of the fourteen-year-old prince. Their affair continued, until a Kingsguard knight found them together in bed in 151 AC. Prince Viserys then decided to mary Falena off to his master-at-arms, Lord Lucas Lothston, and convinced King Baelor I to name Lothston as the new Lord of Harrenhal, thereby removing Falena from court. Prince Aegon, however, continued to frequently visit Harrenhal for two more years, and it has been suggested that even after that, his visits to Falena continued.



While Aegon did not acknowledge any of Falena’s offspring as his own, it is rumored that at least one of Falena’s children, daughter Jeyne Lothston (Aegon’s eight mistress), was Aegon’s daughter.



There is a fairly good chance that Aegon IV fathered more children from Falena and passed them as Lothstons. After all, we are 99.9 % sure that Aegon IV was the biological father of Viserys Plumm. So, the wretch seemed to make a habit of it.



According to Ser Illifer, there was a Lord Lucas Lothston whose nickname was the Pander and he had a son called Manfryd o’ the Black Hood. It is not known whether this Lucas was the husband of Falena or this Manfryd was the Manfred Lothston who took part in the first Blackfyre Rebellion among the black dragon ranks but in the end betrayed Daemon.



But it makes sense to take the Pander as the husband of Falena. After all, this Lucas the Pander seemed to be pimping his wife and his daughter (who was actually Aegon IV’s own daughter) to the king. Timeline also allows his son Manfred to be the Manfryd o’ the Black Hood.



Therefore, the Lothstons up to and including Mad Danelle Lothston most probably had illegitimate Targaryen blood from Aegon IV himself.



Whent



The Lothstons were extinguished during Maekar’s reign (221-233) and the Whents received Harrenhal for their role in defeating the Lothstons. Since they kept the coat-of-arms of the Lothstons almost intact, it can be argued that the first Lord Whent (or his son) married a surviving Lothston female (or a close kin to the Lothstons) as it is the usual way of replacing an old House. After all, the Whents were knights in service to the Lothstons and we know that several household knights married a female of the House they served and started their own dynasty there.



Minisa Whent seems to be a daughter born from this Whent-Lothston union as she was old enough to be a wife to Hoster.



Tully?



If this theory is true, then Minisa’s children have a drop of dragon blood going back to Aegon IV through the bastard line. This also means that the Stark kids have dragon blood through Cat and Sweetrobin has dragon blood through Lysa.



How can we confirm all this stuff at this point of the story?



Garmund’s daughters or other legitimate Targaryen marriages unaccounted for should be in the history books and can be explained when the plot demands it. It is highly likely that we will hear a bit more about Viserys “Plumm” in TWoW. Bloodraven is in a perfect position to explain the illegitimate Targaryen blood in the Lothstons and the Whents, if this part of the theory is true.



How can it contribute to the plot?



Viserys “Plumm” already contributed to the plot and will keep doing it for a while longer. On this basis, one can argue that Ben Plumm can qualify as a dragonrider (though it takes more than a drop of dragon blood or two to tame a dragon as Quentyn can tell). Or if the descendants of Viserys Plumm married into the Lannisters, Tyrion might consider himself eligible to claim a dragon.



These possible drops of dragon blood might suggest new ideas about UnBeric and UnCat.



And even before that, this theory might suggest new ideas about the strange phenomena that all the Stark kids have the gift. If they had two of the most magical bloodlines (Stark and Targaryen) in both sides, the chances of having the gift might be higher.


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Well done Mithras, I'll have this topic flagged. Reminds me much of the topic that showed Daenerys is half blackwood




Since we know bloodlines are in fact important(almost just as much as they aren't important) I agree this will come up down the line, especially when looking for consorts for future dragon queens and kings.


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I wonder if the female Targ line is going to prove more important in the end seeing as there is a chance that Aegon the Conqueror may well not have had any children so the Targ kings would all get their blood of the dragon from the female line originally.


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Mithras this started SO WELL. I am interested in tracing the dragon bloodlines through Westeros. And wish you had also included the Arryn line which has Targ blood iirc?



But I think you need something to support your Lothston/Whent marriage which is a bit more solid than maybe this happened? I agree it is very possible. But would like to see in text evidence.



I personally think Quentyn was doing just fine with Viserion, it was Rhaegal who toasted him, and just because you have dragonblood/ride one dragon, doesn't mean a different dragon won't toast you. Sunfyre ate Rhaenyra after all.



I'm interested in where else the targ blood might flow in westeros.







Leonardo.....this is my face twitching at anyone referring to people as half this or that. I know after much debating this form of referring to people as % this or that blood is an American thing, but it is ridiculous. I have no desire to go into it YET AGAIN. But yea my eye is twitching at a phenomenal rate right now. ;) but also :bang: . (This is meant to be humorous whilst simultaneously exasperated.)


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Mithras this started SO WELL. I am interested in tracing the dragon bloodlines through Westeros. And wish you had also included the Arryn line which has Targ blood iirc?

But I think you need something to support your Lothston/Whent marriage which is a bit more solid than maybe this happened? I agree it is very possible. But would like to see in text evidence.

I personally think Quentyn was doing just fine with Viserion, it was Rhaegal who toasted him, and just because you have dragonblood/ride one dragon, doesn't mean a different dragon won't toast you. Sunfyre ate Rhaenyra after all.

I'm interested in where else the targ blood might flow in westeros.

Leonardo.....this is my face twitching at anyone referring to people as half this or that. I know after much debating this form of referring to people as % this or that blood is an American thing, but it is ridiculous. I have no desire to go into it YET AGAIN. But yea my eye is twitching at a phenomenal rate right now. ;) but also :bang: . (This is meant to be humorous whilst simultaneously exasperated.)

Yes, it is true that Dany has 50% of her DNA inherited from Black Betha Blackwood, but to say she's half-Blackwood would only be true if the Blackwoods had only been inbreeding for thousands of years... And it would be just as incorrect to say she's 50% Targaryen, since we know that the Targaryens in fact had inbred to a much smaller extent than it's usually thought!

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I've already mentioned the idea that 'the Kiss of Life' only worked on Beric because he had Targaryen blood. Catelyn does not need to have a drop in her for it too work if we assume that a 'working fire wight magical matrix' can be transformed by the fire wight to another body - which essentially is what Beric did at the cost of his own life. Resurrecting Catelyn was different from the usual Beric resurrection.



And it is strange that Thoros only seems to resurrect Beric again and again rather than, say, the average BWB soldier, who most likely also does not want to stay dead permanently.



But if Targaryen/dragonlord blood is necessary for the fire wight spell to work at all Catelyn could have it through another source - a Tully could have married a Lothston daughter, either Rhalla or Aerea Targaryen could have married into House Tully (or could have married a descendant from those lines, or one of Rhaena Hightower's daughters - or their descendants - also ended up marrying into House Tully). Since Alyssa Velaryon's marriage to Robar Baratheon the Baratheons of the main line have also confirmed Targaryen blood (Orys' being Aerion's bastard is not confirmed), and if there was a Tully-Baratheon match at one point this could explain stuff, too.



I doubt that Viserys Plumm will become important, though. Nothing suggests a Lannister match of his descendant, especially since we don't even know whether he had daughters or granddaughters.



By the way, more interesting is that the Targaryens actually have Stark blood through Mariah/Marian Stark who apparently married Seth Blackwood, the heir of Raventree, who may be an ancestor of Betha Blackwood.


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Yes, it is true that Dany has 50% of her DNA inherited from Black Betha Blackwood, but to say she's half-Blackwood would only be true if the Blackwoods had only been inbreeding for thousands of years... And it would be just as incorrect to say she's 50% Targaryen, since we know that the Targaryens in fact had inbred to a much smaller extent than it's usually thought!

This stuff literally drives me demented! lol.

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I've already mentioned the idea that 'the Kiss of Life' only worked on Beric because he had Targaryen blood. Catelyn does not need to have a drop in her for it too work if we assume that a 'working fire wight magical matrix' can be transformed by the fire wight to another body - which essentially is what Beric did at the cost of his own life. Resurrecting Catelyn was different from the usual Beric resurrection.

And it is strange that Thoros only seems to resurrect Beric again and again rather than, say, the average BWB soldier, who most likely also does not want to stay dead permanently.

But if Targaryen/dragonlord blood is necessary for the fire wight spell to work at all Catelyn could have it through another source - a Tully could have married a Lothston daughter, either Rhalla or Aerea Targaryen could have married into House Tully (or could have married a descendant from those lines, or one of Rhaena Hightower's daughters - or their descendants - also ended up marrying into House Tully). Since Alyssa Velaryon's marriage to Robar Baratheon the Baratheons of the main line have also confirmed Targaryen blood (Orys' being Aerion's bastard is not confirmed), and if there was a Tully-Baratheon match at one point this could explain stuff, too.

I doubt that Viserys Plumm will become important, though. Nothing suggests a Lannister match of his descendant, especially since we don't even know whether he had daughters or granddaughters.

By the way, more interesting is that the Targaryens actually have Stark blood through Mariah/Marian Stark who apparently married Seth Blackwood, the heir of Raventree, who may be an ancestor of Betha Blackwood.

I'm not a fan of the idea that Fire wights need to have Valyrian or Targ blood. I think the fact Beric was the only BWB who was resurrected is just plot purposes. Not indicative of Beric having special blood.

When you look at the various fire wights or suspected wights your theory would mean they all have to have this blood match. So Beric yes of course can have Targ blood as they married into his family, Cat possibly could IF Lothston wed Whent. Or as you say some other means. But all that is just conjecture, because no where is it confirmed any of these things happened. Mellisandre probably a fire wight, some theories say she is the granddaughter of Aegon IV but it isn't a theory I personally like at all. It's just too much of a stretch for me and seems based on her face shape and waist to bust ratio. :huh:

Moqorro, whom we know sod all about so he could be a descendant but to say such a thing is baseless. but if he isn't an undead fire wight how the fuck did he survive ten days adrift in the ocean clinging to driftwood? Fire wights don't need to sleep, so he couldn't drift off and let go like Leonardo Di Caprio in Titanic. hahaha. Fire wights don't need to eat or drink so he doesn't die from lack of sustenance fire wights are undead so he doesn't die from exposure, sun stroke, exhaustion ect.

I'm very interested in this Stark blood in the Targs idea and think it is plausible. But we'd need to know more about the Blackwoods family tree because if Mariah/Marian Stark wed a second son of the Blackwood lord her blood may not be in Betha, and likewise we don't know that Betha was from the mainbranch? I'm chalking it up to we need more info but this could work.

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Again, it doesn't explain why the BWB would be content with an immortal leader if all of them could be immortal. The kiss is part of Red Priest's burial ritual which means Thoros would give it to every companion/friend who fell in the battles yet apparently only Beric rose. Why is that? Plot purposes is a poor excuse especially since I don't know what sort of excuse this would be - why should the plot need only one fire wight?



Nothing indicates that Moqorro is a fire wight but he could easily have the dragonlord blood necessary to become one as he may be Volantene by birth - and the Volantene Old Blood is descended/related to various dragonlords families of Valyria.



Melisandre is most likely Westerosi by birth and possibly Shiera's daughter by Bloodraven - although she may not be aware of that fact herself, nor may she have ever met her own father. Whether she is fire wight or changed in some other magical way has yet to determined, though. I'd not be surprised if she had been infused magically with fire while she was still alive.



The stuff on the Blackwood-Stark match is from the MUSH - Seth Blackwood is Benjicot Blackwood's eldest son and heir. And Betha is also confirmed to be Lord Blackwood's daughter. Seth can't be her father, so the question there is whether Seth is the one who continued the main Blackwood branch or whether a younger son ended up fathering Betha's father. Bloodraven's mother Melissa is Seth's youngest sister, by the way.


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It could be that Beric himself discourages the Kiss of Life being bestowed on anyone else. He quite clearly does not enjoy his existence anymore, so it is possible he wouldn't wish it on anyone else (though you then wonder why he resurrected Catelyn. Though I see that as weird whichever way you look at it, since Beric is well aware of how terrible his own existence is.)



EDIT: The Weirwood Eyes, its possible the Arryns have Targaryen blood, but unless I am mistaken (and since I dont have the World book to check this, I could well be) Daella had only one child, Aemma, who married Prince (later King) Viserys, and their own children are of course the main branch of Targaryens. The only other marriage I recall, between Alys Arryn and Rhaegel Targaryen, produced children who were accounted for (an incestuous marriage between Aelor and Aelora, and Daenora married to Maegor)


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Beric only came to resent his existence overtime and with repeated resurrections. The first or second time could have been not all that bad. The whole Robin-Hood-like merry band thing clearly was his own idea, and he would have to have been both mentally present and determined to enforce those political ideas.



And he originally wanted Thoros to resurrect Catelyn, most likely in an attempt to make amends to Arya - who wasn't there but who would still have wanted her mother back. She already made it clear that she also would have wanted her father back in any case.



And the fire wight existence is not terrible but rather weird. You became a shadow of yourself, lose some memories but you are still the same person overall. If you are so far gone as Beric was you cannot go back into 'normal life', that's evident, but you could, I assume, if you have only been raised once - which would be the case with Mel or Moqorro if they are fire wights.


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Again, it doesn't explain why the BWB would be content with an immortal leader if all of them could be immortal. The kiss is part of Red Priest's burial ritual which means Thoros would give it to every companion/friend who fell in the battles yet apparently only Beric rose. Why is that? Plot purposes is a poor excuse especially since I don't know what sort of excuse this would be - why should the plot need only one fire wight?

Nothing indicates that Moqorro is a fire wight but he could easily have the dragonlord blood necessary to become one as he may be Volantene by birth - and the Volantene Old Blood is descended/related to various dragonlords families of Valyria.

Melisandre is most likely Westerosi by birth and possibly Shiera's daughter by Bloodraven - although she may not be aware of that fact herself, nor may she have ever met her own father. Whether she is fire wight or changed in some other magical way has yet to determined, though. I'd not be surprised if she had been infused magically with fire while she was still alive.

The stuff on the Blackwood-Stark match is from the MUSH - Seth Blackwood is Benjicot Blackwood's eldest son and heir. And Betha is also confirmed to be Lord Blackwood's daughter. Seth can't be her father, so the question there is whether Seth is the one who continued the main Blackwood branch or whether a younger son ended up fathering Betha's father. Bloodraven's mother Melissa is Seth's youngest sister, by the way.

Will have to agree to disagree on the BWB, I honestly think GRRM just didn't want a ton of fire wights running around.

If Moqorro isn't undead how on earth would he survive ten days adrift in the ocean in one of the hottest regions of Planetos with no food or water? I agree he could easily have some dragonlord blood, But that just isn't enough for me to commit to the idea he does. Ned COULD be a pigeon in Baelor's square or whatever the spot outside the steps of the sept is called. But I am not buying it without text.

Why do you think Mel is Westerosi by origin? The only conclusions I have come to so far from what the text gives away is that she is most likely a sacred red temple prostitute turned priest who was sold through Volantis and was originally named Melony.

I think she must be a fire wight, she is hot and talks of the fire within her, she doesn't need to eat or drink, is unaffected by a known poison, and barely sleeps, and has practiced her art for years beyond count yet looks like a woman in her mid twenties. Hmmmmmm.

Ah! Thank you. I don't ever look at the MUSH to be honest I don't even fully understand what exactly it is. I just have never clicked on that section of the forum.

It could be that Beric himself discourages the Kiss of Life being bestowed on anyone else. He quite clearly does not enjoy his existence anymore, so it is possible he wouldn't wish it on anyone else (though you then wonder why he resurrected Catelyn. Though I see that as weird whichever way you look at it, since Beric is well aware of how terrible his own existence is.)

EDIT: The Weirwood Eyes, its possible the Arryns have Targaryen blood, but unless I am mistaken (and since I dont have the World book to check this, I could well be) Daella had only one child, Aemma, who married Prince (later King) Viserys, and their own children are of course the main branch of Targaryens. The only other marriage I recall, between Alys Arryn and Rhaegel Targaryen, produced children who were accounted for (an incestuous marriage between Aelor and Aelora, and Daenora married to Maegor)

IIRC Beric resurects Cat after Harwin's pleading. After Thoros refuses to attempt it. The most interesting thing I think is that Whilst Thoros prayed using a specific ritual to resurrect Beric, Beric simply breathes his flame into her. Meaning this is not a god answering a prayer at all, and that the ritual must be a magic ritual which creates a specific magic fire.

I'll check the world book in a minute, I'm just eating my lunch. :thumbsup:

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Also interesting RE Beric & cat, how did he know it would work? if he truly believed the Red God had acted through Thoros to raise him, why would be think he could pass his gift of life on to Cat?



I really think a huge part of the reason we get UnCat via Beric in this way is to make us question R'hlor's existence.



Another aspect I have considered is was Drogo also a fire Wight? We now very little of what MMD did in the tent, but we do know she rasied the dead, though he was not as he had been before, and that she needed a brazier to do it.



After calling for a Brazier she cast a powder to cause fear into it, which sent everyone fleeing in terror, a powder Mel describes in her POV. So we know it is a trick of the Red Priests, but not exclusive to them as MMD is not one. She calls for his horse and kills it, but we know the horse is not the true life she says needs to pay for Drogo's life. Was the horse just showmanship?



Shadows are seen dancing in the tent whilst MMD sings. Obviously she created these shadows somehow? And we know she has studied in Asshai. we also know she was raped by multiple men, how does the shadow birthing thing work, can a woman store the seed to use later, was she pregnant with the shadows right after the rapes and just awaiting the time to use them? She is described as chubby and wearing shapeless clothes so would anyone even notice her gut was actually a bump? Or were the shadows created by some other method?



We know that Rhaego died after dany was taken into the tent, and was brought forth a twisted demon like thing. But how did he die? did he die for drogo to live, or did MMD just cause his death out of spite? or did he just die during labour like babies sometimes do?



As far as I can tell from the text we don't know enough about what actually happened to call it. but I think it is interesting to consider Drgo may have been raised by the same method as the Red Priests use.




Qyburn is doing something too, but what? I don't think it is Fire with him, but wtf is he doing.

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Drogo was most likely magically healed via blood magic. Fire magic does not seem to have been involved there.



If the Kiss of Life worked because the fire magic magically reacted with the magic quality of dragonlord blood this working magical matrix could be passed on as a whole to another person.



And by the way: This makes it much more likely that Jon Snow could be resurrected by Melisandre, and her giving him the Kiss of Life will also be part of the revelation of him having Targaryen blood...


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Yes No targ blood in the Arryns HelenaExMachina,



Daella Targaryen died in Childbed after delivering a daughter Aemma Arryn, so no Targ blood in the Arryns as she only had the one child who wed back into the Targ family.



The only one I spotted that Mithras missed on the OP is Elaena's twins with Oakenfist. Who did Jeyne & John Waters end up marrying I wonder? we know John's son went on to form a House of his own House Longwaters. So they have Dragon blood. though according to the wiki the Waters twins carried the blood of houses targaryen, valeryion, Arryn, Upcliff, hunter & STARK? where did they get this from??



Their mother Elaena Targaryen obviously carries blood from Targ, Valeryion (various marriages going back to well before the conquest), Arryn (through the Aemma Arryn marriage) Upcliff (Through the marriage of the marriage of Arwen Upcliff to the Arryn King at the time) and Hunter (through the marriage of Teora Hunter to Rolland II Arryn) But where did they get a drop of Stark Blood? Was Marilda of Hull the daughter of a shipwright (Alyn's Mother) somehow connected to the Starks? a bastard maybe, who knows we have nothing to go on as far as I can tell as to how Stark blood got into the son of Jon Waters? I guess maybe the wife was of Stark blood but I don't see a Stark daughter marrying the son of a legitimised bastard's bastard. even if that bastard was treated like a gently born man due to his noble and royal bloods. Fuck knows. I'm confused now, too many bastards and too much blood.

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Drogo was most likely magically healed via blood magic. Fire magic does not seem to have been involved there.

If the Kiss of Life worked because the fire magic magically reacted with the magic quality of dragonlord blood this working magical matrix could be passed on as a whole to another person.

And by the way: This makes it much more likely that Jon Snow could be resurrected by Melisandre, and her giving him the Kiss of Life will also be part of the revelation of him having Targaryen blood...

I am not a believer in jon needing to be resurrected at all. I'm more likely to make the sign of the hex and spit of Mel whilst hissing if she goes near him. lol.

Hmm, I'm not wholly convinced BUT I do think it is very likely R'hlor was originally a Valeyrian god (TBH I suspected it before, but the world book all but confirms it). so I think it is possible. But needs more evidence IMO. The Catelyn, Mellisandre and Moqorro having to all have Valyrian blood makes it seem less likley IMO, I'd like to see more evidence than a crackpot theory, conjecture and supposition before I go casting my lot.

I think with drogo it is just too vague. I'm not sure even if Fire & Blood magic aren't intrinsically interlinked.

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