Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

AdmiralKyrd

[Book Spoilers] On a certain scene between Cersei and Jaime that Doesn't Make Sense

Recommended Posts

I have major qualms with the scene between Cersei and Jaime in the Sept and it's my least favorite scene in 5.01. It doesn't make sense for the characters or the context.

Jaime has never cared about Tywin's legacy. We know this from him refusing to leave the Kingsguard in Two Swords | 4.01, and declaring that he didn't "want Casterly Rock, a wife, or children." Even in Mockingbird | 4.07, after Jaime made the deal with Tywin to leave the Kingsguard that got thrown out, he has a scene with Tyrion where Tyrion has the idea that Jaime champion him and lose the trial by combat to snuff out Tywin's legacy. Jaime refers to this idea as "tempting." It doesn't make sense for his character in 5.01 to do a complete 180 and talk about preserving what Tywin built. Now you might think maybe he feels like preserving it because of guilt over setting Tyrion free, but Jaime shakes his head in the Sept scene when Cersei says "[Tyrion] is the enemy." By proxy, if he didn't think Tyrion did anything terribly wrong then Jaime shouldn't be feeling that guilty. And if Jaime was feeling he needed to change and uphold Tywin's legacy, then his change of mind should have been topical for the conversation.

Cersei seems oblivious to the Tyrells in this scene, and wants to blame everything on Tyrion. Yes, she blames Tyrion for the death of Joffrey and Tywin, and also for sending Myrcella away, but Cersei had spent many scenes of Season 4 hating on Margaery and Tywin for tearing them apart. She even says in The Children | 4.10 she'll burn their house to the ground before she lets them take Tommen from her. Plus, prior to this Sept scene in 5.01, she just saw Margaery outside. When Jaime talks about everyone coming to take everything away, Cersei responds obliviously without a care in the world for them - "They?" If anything she should be the one getting excited over the Tyrells outside. Plus, in the opening scene we learned the Maggy the Frog prophecy. Shouldn't this scene reflect that she remembers Maggy's prophecy? It doesn't make sense that the first scene we get after the flashback has her lines out of character and appearing oblivious to anything foreseen by Maggy. I don't understand the point of including Maggy's prophecy if Cersei appears to not remember it or react to it.

Shouldn't that scene look less like this (Aired Transcript),


CERSEI: He never wanted you to be a Kingsguard, but here you are, protecting his dead body.
JAIME: What he built, it's ours. He built it for us. He meant it for us. They're going to try to take it away. All of it.
CERSEI: They?
JAIME: All of them out there, our enemies. They're waiting in line to make sure he's really dead. And as soon as they see the stones on his eyes, they'll set to work on tearing us apart.
CERSEI: They have nothing to do with it. The man who murdered our father, he tore us apart. He's the enemy. I've been telling you for years. You've been defending him for years.
JAIME: This is exactly what they want.
CERSEI: And now our father is dead and that little monster is out there somewhere drawing breath. Did you set him free? Tyrion may be a monster, but at least he killed our father on purpose. You killed him by mistake. With stupidity. You're a man of action, aren't you? When it occurs to you to do something, you do it. Never mind the consequences.Take a look. Look at the consequences. Here they are. He loved you more than anyone in this world.



...and more like this?


CERSEI: He never wanted you to be a Kingsguard, but here you are, protecting his dead body. What he built, it's ours.
JAIME: All he ever made that I care about is you.
CERSEI: Hmph. They're coming to take it away, what he meant for us, all of it.
JAIME: They?
CERSEI: All of them out there, our enemies, the Tyrells, that conniving bitch from Highgarden. They're waiting in line to make sure he's really dead. And as soon as they see the stones on his eyes, they'll set to work on casting us aside.
JAIME: You talk about what he built with such reverence yet ignore it? He made the Tyrells our allies. And once Tommen weds Margaery they'll be bound to us. They're not our enemies.
CERSEI: You don't know what I know!
JAIME: What do you know?
CERSEI: I know you need to start caring if we're to prevent any more of what that wicked woman wished on us.
JAIME: Wicked woman, Margaery again? You're being paranoid. Our father wanted-
CERSEI: Our father is dead! And that little monster is out there somewhere drawing breath. I've been telling you what he is for years. You've been defending him for years. Take a look at what he did. Did you set him free? Tyrion may be a monster, but at least he killed our father on purpose. You killed him by mistake. With stupidity. Look at the consequences. Here they are. He loved you more than anyone in this world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took it as Jaime saying all that stuff just to try to shift Cersei's focus from him/Tyrion to anything else. He knows Cersei's sniffing around, and he's trying to get her attention off him. She doesn't fall for it, tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took it Jaime was serious and the writers just fucked his personality up. Jaime is supposed to give zero fucks about that sort of thing at this point in the story. Instead they gave him Cersei's paranoia.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^btw the writers aren't as dumb as you think they are

They're dumber?!

Seriously, though, even non-readers picked up on the inconsistency of that scene. Jaime's always given zero fucks about Tywin's legacy, and all of a sudden he's super paranoid and all. It was weird. I think the writers don't know what to do with Jaime this season

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took it as Jaime saying all that stuff just to try to shift Cersei's focus from him/Tyrion to anything else. He knows Cersei's sniffing around, and he's trying to get her attention off him. She doesn't fall for it, tho.

Then this should be the segway between Jaime talking about Tywin's legacy into Cersei talking about Tyrion. Her dialogue should be about her picking up on how he's not acting like himself, he's hiding something, and then she accuses him of freeing Tyrion. This would also replace her ignoring the threat of Margaery to blame Tyrion.

But that's not what happens, and Jaime appears convinced there is a threat looming to them outside the Sept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just because Jamie doesn't care about Tywin's legacy per se it doesn't mean he wants us to see his House destroyed either and I am guessing he was trying to warn Cersei that there are enemies out there who will try to do that. Now if Jamie decides to leave the KG and return to rule Casterly Rock than that would be a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took it as Jaime saying all that stuff just to try to shift Cersei's focus from him/Tyrion to anything else. He knows Cersei's sniffing around, and he's trying to get her attention off him. She doesn't fall for it, tho.

Yep, this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just because Jamie doesn't care about Tywin's legacy per se it doesn't mean he wants us to see his House destroyed either and I am guessing he was trying to warn Cersei that there are enemies out there who will try to do that. Now if Jamie decides to leave the KG and return to rule Casterly Rock than that would be a problem.

This is the same guy, who just a couple of episodes ago was totally disowned by his father and was like, whatever. And now, he's all 'he built it for us'? LOL. The fact that this goes against the entire Jamie Lannister characterization in the show is a nitpick at this point,. We know he doesn't care about the Lannister legacy or anything that Tywin built, because his father disowned him and his sister even berated him for staying in the KG and he didn't care, doesn't care about CR at all.

And he sounds kinda paranoid, which is a new trait for Jamie. Enemies all around us, trying to break us apart....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point Jaime being glamored in that scene to trade places with Mance burning up at the Wall would make more sense than the show presenting that scene as good characterization... It's not consistent for Jaime, and it doesn't really add up considering how they began the frigging season with the prophecy that set Cersei's paranoia on fire in the books, took out the whole valonquar part of it which book!Cersei associated with Tyrion, and now in this scene she's worried only about Tyrion? Why? I am very confused (and by confused I really mean :bang: at the way this has all been scripted).


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

took out the whole valonquar part of it which book!Cersei associated with Tyrion, and now in this scene she's worried only about Tyrion? Why? I am very confused (and by confused I really mean :bang: at the way this has all been scripted).

The fact Cersei goes crazy over Tyrion in this scene and not Margaery reinforces to me the Valonqar is in but they split it up later in editing. (still though, she shouldn't ignore Margaery, but w/e)

That, plus the inconsistent dialogue, leads me to think they originally intended to make this scene longer, but somewhere along the way it was rewritten for time and to give Jaime more dialogue. They ended up cutting almost everything Jaime should say and gave him most of the first half of Cersei's dialogue, and then spliced the two together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could say "[X] doesn't make sense", with X = 99% of scenes of the show and you would be accurate.

(I call it the JCRB theorem).

lol I saw the title and was like that could be any Cersei/Jaime scene :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't take that scene as anything to do with legacies. I took it as Jamie's way of trying to implore Cersei to not let the fact that he freed Tyrion rip them apart. Feel like this is confirmed when she subsequently says, "they had nothing to do with it". He freed Tyrion and that's what tore them apart. He knows it, and she knows it.



I actually felt like that was the best scene of the night. The acting was superb.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×