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[No Spoilers] EP502 Discussion

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Non-spoiler discussion of the show goes here, for those who've not read the books or those who have but are happy to not actually reference them at all in discussion, taking each episode as it comes. NOTE: Anyone seen discussing details of the episode from well ahead of the episode during air time will be considered to be in violation of our policy on spoilers and leaks.

This topic should open automatically when the show begins airing.

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The reappearance of Jaqen was definitely the highlight of the episode. Quickly followed by Sam's snark to Slynt. :D


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After watching this episode, I'm beginning to understand why so many people hate Daenerys.

Because she had a traitor executed?

Dany decided that the SOH man would be given a trial, because she is trying to make things equal and rule as fairly as possible, despite her personal feelings. Because of this "fairness" on her part, one of her council broke into the prisoners cell, dragged him out, and had him pinned to a public wall with "kill all the masters" written in blood. You don't like Dany for punishing Mossadors act of treason? The man was inciting violence. A man who personally watched how Dany was trying to bring equilibrium to the city.

Also having someone killed is pretty much what GOT is all about, once you take out the breasts. Stannis had a man burned alive simply because he wouldn't kneel, he had others burned because they didn't bow to Melisandre's God. Rob cut off Karstark's head for killing the Lannisters boys. Catelyn wanted to have Tyrion killed on suspicion of trying to hurt Bran. Tyrion killed Tywin and his ex-lover. Tywin arranged for the death of most of the remaining Stark clan. Ned hacked off a Nights watch brothers head and had his own hacked off for attempting to block Joffrey from taking the throne. Lady Olenna arranged for Joffrey’s death. LF and Lady Lysa killed Jon Arryn. Arya has a list of people she wants to kill. King Robert had a poisoner sent to kill Dany on another continent. And those are just the ones that come to mind.

Sansa is about the only person that hasn't killed anyone on this show!

Edited by kefln

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i just like how people complained about dany not listening to ser baristan the whole season and when she did listen people ignore it and find some other reasons to hate her

True. They spent all of the first few seasons complaining that she spent too much time travelling around, only to complain once she settled into Meereen. Catch 22. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

Edited by kefln

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Because she had a traitor executed?

Dany decided that the SOH man would be given a trial, because she is trying to make things equal and rule as fairly as possible, despite her personal feelings. Because of this "fairness" on her part, one of her council broke into the prisoners cell, dragged him out, and had him pinned to a public wall with "kill all the masters" written in blood. You don't like Dany for punishing Mossadors act of treason? The man was inciting violence. A man who personally watched how Dany was trying to bring equilibrium to the city.

Also having someone killed is pretty much what GOT is all about, once you take out the breasts. Stannis had a man burned alive simply because he wouldn't kneel, he had others burned because they didn't bow to Melisandre's God. Rob cut off Karstark's head for killing the Lannisters boys. Catelyn wanted to have Tyrion killed on suspicion of trying to hurt Bran. Tyrion killed Tywin and his ex-lover. Tywin arranged for the death of most of the remaining Stark clan. Ned hacked off a Nights watch brothers head and had his own hacked off for attempting to block Joffrey from taking the throne. Lady Olenna arranged for Joffrey’s death. LF and Lady Lysa killed Jon Arryn. Arya has a list of people she wants to kill. King Robert had a poisoner sent to kill Dany on another continent. And those are just the ones that come to mind.

Sansa is about the only person that hasn't killed anyone on this show!

I would not have been so concerned if Dany wasn't the precious savoir of Westeros that Varys says she is. Also, that is the second time in Game of Thrones that someone was killed in the most idiotic possible manner at the command of a product of incest.

Edited by Crow's eye in the sky

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I would not have been so concerned if Dany wasn't the precious savoir of Westeros that Varys says she is. Also, that is the second time in Game of Thrones that someone was killed in the most idiotic possible manner at the command of a product of incest.

Ok, lets look into what you’ve said here.

First up you’ve used the word “precious” in reference to Dany, is that because she’s a woman? If Vary’s was backing Stannis, or if he’d been backing Tywin, would you have used the same term? If not, then why use the word?

And what Varys said was that the seven kingdoms need a ruler stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis. A monarch that can intimidate the high lords and inspire the people.

The Targaryen’s ruled on the Iron throne for centuries. Since they were removed there has been 3 kings. One was a drunk who squandered the Kingdom wealth. The next was a sadist who’s only real contribution was to start a war with the North, then wait for his uncles to sort it all out. Now there is a boy, who is about to be swept up in the Tyrells bid for power.

The Lords of the North summed up the current situation when they declared Rob the King in the North. For centuries they bowed to the Dragons, but now the Dragons are gone. As far as they are concerned the Baratheons/Lannisters are just men. And they don’t need to bend knee to them.

Stannis is a different prospect, he’s a man worth fearing. But he has had people executed for not bowing to him, or not bowing to his new religion. He killed his own brother and was willing to have his nephew sacrificed. A hard man with little empathy.

Varys wants stability. The Targaryen name is still feared, but Dany is not her father. Being the master of spies Varys is also aware that she has developed a following and seems to appreciate the needs of the common folk, as well as the wealthy. With the right coaching and the right advisors, she’d be the middle ground that is needed.

“Product of incest” – another great term. Basically you are trying to blame a child for the actions of its parents.

And its also an irrelevant point. Joffrey is/was nothing a like Daenerys. Its like trying to say that Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow are the same as they are both illegitimate. Or that Varys and Grey worm are the same because they both have been cut.

“idiotic possible manner” – explain why Mossadors execution was idiotic? The man that had just broken into a prison cell, and nailed the prisoner to a public wall with the words “kill all the masters” written beside him in blood. All this in a city that is already in social turmoil? Explain how things would work out for a new ruler, in a city were a rich men want her gone, if it got out that she doesn’t follow through? That disobeying her gets a slap on the wrist? There is a reason that her council has an ex-slave and a noble in attendance. Keeping both sides happy is paramount. Mossador committed an act of treason. Which carries a serious punishment in every country in the real world, never mind one as brutal as GOT.

And then we are back to the notion of executions, killings and deaths in the GOT universe. Please read the above post, the one that you quoted, for a random list of things that characters have done to one another. How was the death of Mossador any worse? Its not, so I have to go back to your use of the word “precious”.

Edited by kefln

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The Targaryen’s ruled on the Iron throne for centuries. Since they were removed there has been 3 kings. One was a drunk who squandered the Kingdom wealth. The next was a sadist who’s only real contribution was to start a war with the North, then wait for his uncles to sort it all out. Now there is a boy, who is about to be swept up in the Tyrells bid for power.

“idiotic possible manner” – explain why Mossadors execution was idiotic? The man that had just broken into a prison cell, and nailed the prisoner to a public wall with the words “kill all the masters” written beside him in blood. All this in a city that is already in social turmoil? Explain how things would work out for a new ruler, in a city were a rich men want her gone, if it got out that she doesn’t follow through? That disobeying her gets a slap on the wrist? There is a reason that her council has an ex-slave and a noble in attendance. Keeping both sides happy is paramount. Mossador committed an act of treason. Which carries a serious punishment in every country in the real world, never mind one as brutal as GOT.

can you elaborate on the tyrells bid for power? all that i've really seen is margerys play to try and get tommen on her side. i thought that this was only to ensure that she would become queen, yes its obvious that she will from there try and get more power but we haven't seen her make light on any of these actions,(conspiring with other people/families) yet. and mace tyrell was giddy to be appointed master of coin, so i dont think he is any threat to the lannisters

on the slave being executed. dont you think it was a misjudgement on dany's part that she was willing to give the harpy a fair trial but once the slave committed the crime, he was instantly sentenced and not given the same right of having a trial?

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Mossador plead guilty immediately. No need for a trial. Idiotic possible manner could refer to the public execution, as opposed to the private beheading Hizdahr suggested.

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can you elaborate on the tyrells bid for power? all that i've really seen is margerys play to try and get tommen on her side. i thought that this was only to ensure that she would become queen, yes its obvious that she will from there try and get more power but we haven't seen her make light on any of these actions,(conspiring with other people/families) yet. and mace tyrell was giddy to be appointed master of coin, so i dont think he is any threat to the lannisters

on the slave being executed. dont you think it was a misjudgement on dany's part that she was willing to give the harpy a fair trial but once the slave committed the crime, he was instantly sentenced and not given the same right of having a trial?

The Tyrells are second only to the Lannisters in terms of power and wealth. And they are doing their best to take that next step.

Remember Cersei fired a warning shot across Margery? The younger woman dared to suggest that they'd soon be sisters, Cersei replied by asking her about the song "The Rains of Castamere", and did Margery know of House Reyne?

House Tyrell first sided with Renly and his claim to the throne, he had the numbers and the charm. After Renlys assassination they instantly switched to help the Lannisters. It was a straight deal. Marriage for supplies/armies. Margery herself is very skilled in the art of charm. Where Cersei depends on angry outbursts, Margery gets results by smiling and putting her arms around people. She is also loved by the commoners, as she made a point to be seen giving out food. Where the Lannisters were nearly torn apart by the crowd, Margery was able to walk among them unguarded.

And don't be fooled, Mace Tyrell is no more in charge of House Tyrell than I am. Lady Olenna is the one with the brains. It was her that Tywin dealt with when negotiating, it was her that Tyrion dealt with when he was master of coin, and it was she that admitted to poisoning Joffery. The Tyrells are on the up.

If everything remained as it is now in the series, what would be the next step? Tommen would marry Margery. After a couple of days of her "winning" him over, he'd declare someone from House Tyrell as Regent until he comes of age. Cersei would be out, reduced to Queen mother, she might even have to leave the city.

Lady Olenna set Margery one task, to seduce Tommens mind while Cersei was distracted by the death of her son and the trial of Tyrion. If she is/was successful by the time they are married the Tyrells will be the real force behind the throne and they will have the support of the people.

On Dany, the difference is that Mossador admitted to the crime.

He admitted to being guilty despite the fact that he had been sitting on her council, representing the freed people of Meereen. This was a man at the very heart of Daenerys inner circle, he had spent time with her, listened to all that transpired in the city and the plans for its future. Had he just gone to the cell and stabbed the man to death, privately, maybe then she would have just punished him. Instead Mossador publicly executed the prisoner, inciting violence with words written in blood beside the body. It was a PR cluster f**k.

Had Daenerys done nothing then the SOH cause would be justified. The Masters would read it as they are fair game under her rulership. A freed man that sits daily with the Queen writes “Kill the Masters” in blood and nothing happens? The SOH numbers would have swelled.

Taking care of it privately would lead to a city demanding to know what happened. Where has Mossador gone? Was he punished? Why is there no transparency in this new rulership that claims to make everyone equal?

What it comes down to is this. The SOH are rebelling against her rule. They murdered someone. The law needed to be enforced. However Mossador used his elevated position, disobeyed a direct order, undermined her politically and probably strengthened her enemies cause. Treason. She needed to make a stand. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn’t.

Dany’s real problem is that yet again she has learned that you can’t trust people. Her brother sold her for an army. She saved the healer from being raped and was betrayed with the death of her husband and child. She tried to befriend the rulers of Qarth, that went well. She frees the slaves of Meereen, sits one of them at her table, he betrays her first chance he gets. Her long term friend, Ser Friendzone himself, he was spying on her. Her Dragons are now a like a cruel joke.

Chopping off Mossador’s head for treason was a PR disaster. But it was one thrown upon her, it wasn’t a situation of her own doing. The problem she faces is that there is no easy way to resolve the issues of Slavers bay. The bitterness runs too deep. Someone is going to lose. For the first time in their lives the freed men have power and they want revenge. The Masters want control back. Dany is sitting in their way.

The easy way would be picking a side, but that would make her more of a Mad King and less like the ruler she says she wants to be.

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Mossador plead guilty immediately. No need for a trial. Idiotic possible manner could refer to the public execution, as opposed to the private beheading Hizdahr suggested.

Exactly.

The problem with a private beheading is that it would be more inline with what the old masters would have done. It would also be a political hot potato. The public killing of the SOH would raise many questions. As would the words written on the wall. People would demand answers. Would Hizdahr keep it quiet that one of Dany's inner circle, an ex-slave, killed the prisoner?

And given that Mossador is the representation of the freed people, if he were to suddenly disappear, alot of questions would be asked.

The public manner of the execution was necessary. It was also the worst possible thing to do. But if she hadn't the rippling effects would be much worse in the future. Least people now know that if you f**k with her, no matter who you are, you will be punished.

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Mossador plead guilty immediately. No need for a trial. Idiotic possible manner could refer to the public execution, as opposed to the private beheading Hizdahr suggested.

A Public execution in this case, is similar to putting out a fire with gasoline.

anyway, here are my thoughts on the episode in general

Edited by Crow's eye in the sky

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where does everyone think that sansa and lf are going?



hope that we see some more of arya this week, for the title of episode concerning her, we didn't get a whole lot of information



excited about bronn and jaime, have always thought that bronn was one of the better characters


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I think they are going north, they've left the Vale and they can't go south.

Arya's story should be really interesting this year. She's been travelling non stop since season #1, ignoring the time she was held prisoner, so it will be nice to see her somewhat settled. There was no sign of Dany in the trailer for episode #3, so I'm hoping they'll spend the extra time with Arya instead.

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I did a re-watch yesterday. Does anyone remember where Pod was during the Purple Wedding? He was the one that identified Sansa and Littlefinger in the Westeros Applebees.


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I did a re-watch yesterday. Does anyone remember where Pod was during the Purple Wedding? He was the one that identified Sansa and Littlefinger in the Westeros Applebees.

Pod was in service to Tyrion at the time, I don't remember seeing him in that episode though.

But he would have met Sansa many times before and after Tyrion's wedding. I seem to remember Tyrion asking Pod to escort Shae out of the room at one point. As for Little Finger, he was still master of coin while Tyrion was Hand, so again Pod would be very familiar with him.

"the Westeros Applebees" - major points for this! :thumbsup:

Edited by kefln

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Mossador's story surprised me. Not what happened but how fast it happened. Sort of expected that story to go on for two more episodes.

So Mossador is here then he is gone!

So who becomes the kind of Slave liaison to Dany?

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Can't imagine there will be too many takers in the short term.

I don't find it all that surprising a storyline. The freed men must have a lot of hatred stored up. The desire for payback must be immense. The SOH are working to re-enslave them. Nasty will happen.

Dany is caught between a rock and a bunch of angry people. It was only a matter of time before she needed to lay down the law.

To paraphrase the late King Robert, it isn't honour that is keeping the peace, its fear and blood.

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