[Book Spoilers] EP502 Discussion

[Spidey]

Because that was always who Catelyn was. Here we have the complete change of character and even more, complete transformation that makes zero sense.

Catelyn was Catelyn, through and through. Ellaria, though, she has to be Ellaria and Arianne, obviously her passive mindset from the books would not serve the plot at all. Kinda hard to get a vengeance plot going if the main instigator doesn't care about vengeance.

So Ellaria takes on the hotheadedness and lust for vengeance from Arianne. Obviously, she won't be the Queenmaker but she gets into conflict with Doran which will eventually lead into the reveal of his game plan to her.

None of that would be possible with a passive Ellaria.

[Nictarion]

She went all Ned Stark and broke the most basic rules! She turned away and had someone else do the executing. On top of that, she made a show of it! I thought between that and the riot that followed there were definite Joffrey nods regarding failure in ruling.

:rolleyes:

Pretty ridiculous conclusion to come to from that scene.

[boojam]

I still think the opening scene of Arya arriving in Braavos should have been the opening scene last week.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

:rolleyes:

Pretty ridiculous conclusion to come to from that scene.

Elaborate. What is ridiculous about it?

A public execution on the steps of Baelor's sept vs A public execution in front of the Pyramid of Mereen

Joffrey asking Ilyn to execute Ned paralleled 'Whoever passes the sentence must swing the sword', making a statement about Joffrey's inadequacy. Similarly Dany has Daario carry out the sentence and not herself. We are told in the first main scene of the show how important it is not to look away 'father will know', Dany pointedly cannot look suggesting she doesn't believe what she is doing is right.

Dany's scene is followed by a riot, similar to the Kings Landing riots where Joffrey had to be escorted to safety after he lost the good will of the people, similarly Dany had to be hustled in to the pyramid to stop the crowds tearing her apart.

Edited April 20, 2015 by AryaNymeriaVisenya

[Mladen]

Catelyn was Catelyn, through and through. Ellaria, though, she has to be Ellaria and Arianne, obviously her passive mindset from the books would not serve the plot at all. Kinda hard to get a vengeance plot going if the main instigator doesn't care about vengeance.

So Ellaria takes on the hotheadedness and lust for vengeance from Arianne. Obviously, she won't be the Queenmaker but she gets into conflict with Doran which will eventually lead into the reveal of his game plan to her.

None of that would be possible with a passive Ellaria.

But Arianne wasn't avenging Oberyn too. She was plotting for power far more than just avenging Oberyn. And furthermore, it never actually went "finger by finger". Arianne was never lust for vengeance. She just wanted power.

And passive Ellaria as you call her, was perhaps the wisest character in entire series. She was also the one who understood Oberyn behind the sass, sexy man everyone saw. She knew he would have never hurt Myrcella. Hence is why this storyline makes zero sense.

[Nictarion]

Elaborate. What is ridiculous about it?

A public execution on the steps of Baelor's sept vs A public execution in front of the Pyramid of Mereen

Joffrey asking Ilyn to execute Ned paralleled 'Whoever passes the sentence must swing the sword', making a statement about Joffrey's inadequacy. Similarly Dany has Daario carry out the sentence and not herself. We are told in the first main scene of the show how important it is not to look away 'father will know', Dany pointedly cannot look suggesting she doesn't believe what she is doing is right.

Dany's scene is followed by a riot, similar to the Kings Landing riots where Joffrey had to be escorted to safety after he lost the good will of the people, similarly Dany had to be hustled in to the pyramid to stop the crowds tearing her apart.

Nobody else other than the Starks do their own executions. To criticize Dany for it is ridiculous. And Bran didn't know the man being executed. Dany did. Of course that would make it hard to watch. The riot scene wasn't even in the same episode as Ned's execution, not sure how it's relevant. Something looked similar to a scene with Joffrey, so what? Your mind jumps to Dany is as bad as Joffrey? Ok.

Even the biggest Dany detractors should be able to be realize Dany is no Joffrey. As usual your hatred of the character is making you irrational.

[boojam]

The mystery continues.

Emilia except for season 1 and a few sequences since, is best when speaking Valyrian!

(I am guessing this is High Valyrian and not Meereenise Valyrian.)

Fine projection , inflection and body language, speaking something totally different than English, it's weird.

I was surprised at the length of the Valyrian dialog in this episode, I love it. Not sure how many do since I hear people dislike reading subtitles.

I hope this is not the last , the Valyrian speaking sort of trailed off in season 4.

[Spidey]

And passive Ellaria as you call her, was perhaps the wisest character in entire series.

Maybe. But the Dorne plot doesn't need a dove. It needs a hawk to work.

Why do you think GRRM dropped the character when he got to Dorne?

Edited April 20, 2015 by Spidey

[boojam]

55 minutes, nuts.

Three more minutes and we could of had a little more of Ternesio Terys (Gary Oliver) interaction with Arya.

I wanted to see him emphasize "Don't forget my name."

Even a little interaction with the crew as Arya left the boat.

Just 3 lousy more minutes.

Come to think of it, Arya just moping on the steps of the HoBaW went on for too long.

Edited April 20, 2015 by boojam

[Kyoshi]

Nobody else other than the Starks do their own executions. To criticize Dany for it is ridiculous. And Bran didn't know the man being executed. Dany did. Of course that would make it hard to watch. The riot scene wasn't even in the same episode as Ned's execution, not sure how it's relevant. Something looked similar to a scene with Joffrey, so what? Your mind jumps to Dany is as bad as Joffrey? Ok.

Even the biggest Dany detractors should be able to be realize Dany is no Joffrey. As usual your hatred of the character is making you irrational.

:agree: Not to mention that she lives in a society in which women like Brienne, those who wield swords, are not a common sight. If she had decided to execute the dude herself we would currently be debating her arrogance since we've never even seen her so much as express desire for the skill i.e. we would still be discussing just how much she screwed up. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Nobody else other than the Starks do their own executions. To criticize Dany for it is ridiculous. And Bran didn't know the man being executed. Dany did. Of course that would make it hard to watch. The riot scene wasn't even in the same episode as Ned's execution, not sure how it's relevant. Something looked similar to a scene with Joffrey, so what? Your mind jumps to Dany is as bad as Joffrey? Ok.

Even the biggest Dany detractors should be able to be realize Dany is no Joffrey. As usual your hatred of the character is making you irrational.

Its relevant because its the first bits of Joffrey's rule condensed in one scene. Just because Joffrey had a 'Royal Executioner' doesn't mean that the scene of him ordering Ned's head didn't parallel with episode 1. That made a statement about the difference between the Starks and the Lannisters and its continued here to show Dany erring on the Lannister side. Who wants to bet its carried on with 'Fetch me a block'?

Its not about detracting from Dany, its paralleling situations. Not saying Dany's about to vivisect cats! The comparison is their failures in ruling. Seems to be a deliberate callback, the setting just clinches it.

Edited April 20, 2015 by AryaNymeriaVisenya

[Nictarion]

Its relevant because its the first bits of Joffrey's rule condensed in one scene. Just because Joffrey had a 'Royal Executioner' doesn't mean that the scene of him ordering Ned's head didn't parallel with episode 1. That made a statement about the difference between the Starks and the Lannisters and its continued here to show Dany erring on the Lannister side. Who wants to bet its carried on with 'Fetch me a block'?

Its not about detracting from Dany, its paralleling situations. Not saying Dany's about to vivisect cats! The comparison is their failures in ruling.

It wasn't a failure in ruling. She did the right thing. Decisions a ruler makes will always be unpopular with someone. You can't please everyone.

[Mladen]

Maybe. But the Dorne plot doesn't need a dove. It needs a hawk to work.

Why do you think GRRM dropped the character when he got to Dorne?

It doesn't? The issue here is that producers wanted Arianne but they are ridiculously not casting her, for whatever reason they had. And now, we have some strange fusion of the character that makes no sense. There were dozens of different ways in which Ellaria could make a sense as Arianne and they chose the worst. She is basically cartoonish. The accent and gestures are horrible. Varma is a good actress, but this... This was travesty.

[boojam]

Not even a glancing glance of Dorne in the title sequence.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

How can you look at that scene and come out of it thinking that it wasn't a bad plan? They began cheering for her, by the end all the entire city had become a snake pit. Remember the line about bringing out the snakes to cut of their heads, now everyone is a snake because of what she has done.

[Mladen]

Its not about detracting from Dany, its paralleling situations. Not saying Dany's about to vivisect cats! The comparison is their failures in ruling. Seems to be a deliberate callback, the setting just clinches it.

This makes no sense. Of what failure of ruling you are talking about, especially comparing it to "Fetch me a block" situation? How are those two situations different? Dany made a decision because there are laws she abides to, she wants all of them to abide to, basically just like Jon. The fact he does his execution and the fact she doesn't has little impact when it comes to the core of what they are doing - punishing the disobedience.

[Nictarion]

:agree: Not to mention that she lives in a society in which women like Brienne, those who wield swords, are not a common sight. If she had decided to execute the dude herself we would currently be debating her arrogance since we've never even seen her so much as express desire for the skill i.e. we would still be discussing just how much she screwed up. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

What else is new, this is Dany afterall. She is held to impossible standards like no other characters.

A scene where she does the right thing by punishing one of her own people for murder, and defying her orders, and she still gets shit.

Robb Stark did the exact same thing, and I saw no "Joffrey callback" nonsense. I guess swinging the sword yourself makes all the difference. :rolleyes:

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

This makes no sense. Of what failure of ruling you are talking about, especially comparing it to "Fetch me a block" situation? How are those two situations different? Dany made a decision because there are laws she abides to, she wants all of them to abide to, basically just like Jon. The fact he does his execution and the fact she doesn't has little impact when it comes to the core of what they are doing - punishing the disobedience.

'Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."'

Ned is our bastion of goodness, he is the great guy that gets killed doing the right thing. This is the first POV. This is a basic moral compass of the text. Read that, look at the Dany scene, see how it is is the antithesis of all that Ned/The Starks represent. Yes, he mentions First Men blood but its basis is in morality and justice and that it is the RIGHT way. Ned even basically says his BFF Robert is wrong to have a headsman, but what they do is what they do and none of his concern.

Its like D&D decided to just do the opposite of this, like was done in the Joffrey scene. The setting even calls back to the Joffrey scene, in that it is an 'event', pre arranged with masses of crowds. And of course the riot from the early days of his reign too smushed in there. How you interpret it with Dany is up to you, there is a clear parallel. 'Fetch me a Block' is Jon going about things the Ned way and of course, he gets the infamous nod of approval. Does Jon get punished for killing Slynt in the text, no. He gets punished for breaking the Watch's rules and being too nice to wildings.

What else is new, this is Dany afterall. She is held to impossible standards like no other characters.

A scene where she does the right thing by punishing one of her own people for murder, and defying her orders, and she still gets shit.

Robb Stark did the exact same thing, and I saw no "Joffrey callback" nonsense. I guess swinging the sword yourself makes all the difference. :rolleyes:

Look at the quote

Honestly, if you can't see a basic comparison I don't know how to discuss this further. I get it, you like Dany but this season is about her failures. If you try to discount them, you miss the whole point. Meereen does not go well.

Edited April 20, 2015 by AryaNymeriaVisenya

[boojam]

Honestly, if you can't see a basic comparison I don't know how to discuss this further. I get it, you like Dany but this season is about her failures. If you try to discount them, you miss the whole point. Meereen does not go well.

Well, up to episode 9.

Then it depends on your definition of 'well'.

[Nictarion]

'Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."'

-Ned

Ned is our bastion of goodness, he is the great guy that gets killed doing the right thing. This is the first POV. This is a basic moral compass of the text. Read that, look at the Dany scene, see how it is is the antithesis of all that Ned/The Starks represent. Yes, he mentions First Men blood but its basis is in morality and justice and that it is the RIGHT way. Ned even basically says his BFF Robert is wrong to have a headsman, but what they do is what they do and none of his concern.

Its like D&D decided to just do the opposite of this, like was done in the Joffrey scene. The setting even calls back to the Joffrey scene, in that it is an 'event', pre arranged with masses of crowds. And of course the riot from the early days of his reign too smushed in there. How you interpret it with Dany is up to you, there is a clear parallel. 'Fetch me a Block' is Jon going about things the Ned way and of course, he gets the infamous nod of approval. Does Jon get punished for killing Slynt in the text, no. He gets punished for breaking the Watch's rules and being too nice to wildings.

Look at the quote

Honestly, if you can't see a basic comparison I don't know how to discuss this further. I get it, you like Dany but this season is about her failures. If you try to discount them, you miss the whole point. Meereen does not go well.

There is a gargantuan difference between not going well, and comparing her to Joffrey.

Jon struggles to rule during ADWD too, but somehow I doubt you'll jump to comparing him to Joffrey. His people tried to kill him too. So again the only difference is swinging the sword himself? That's just stupid.