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I too think shireen will be burned by selyse

i dont think mel will be with her unless stannis takes everyone south ..but i think atleast in the show mel wil not be there when selyse does that and iam wondering whether jon wil try to prevent this and we get FOR THE WATCH that way

Selyse wanted to leave Shireen behind last season and not take her to the wall. It was Mel that forced her to come. Whatever bad is happening to TV Shireen (if any) will likely be because of TV Mel.

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A question: Why would Ramsay turn on the crown? The crown is the reason he his Bolton now and his father is Warden of the North.

Why does Ramsey do anything? But I would guess Roose may turn on the crown because Tywin is gone and he is what was holding things together. He may not trust Cersei and what she does and so a second Northern independence and they have the Vale supporting them, and the Riverlands, or at least he may be led to think that. Sansa secures the North for Roose, he may also get no support from KL to deal with Stannis and it may force his hand, so you get a northern civil war. If some in the North ally with Stannis and he gets no help from the crown it may force his hand. He would not be able to hold the North without a Stark union.

Ramsay wouldn't see it as turning on the crown, he'd see it as taking justice on Jaime for stealing his playthings. He probably wouldn't consult with Roose on it, either. Look at what he did to Reek: he mutilated a potentially valuable prisoner, without his father's knowledge (on the show).

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Show Ellaria hadn't had to watch the greatest wonder in Westeros get his head squished last season. Stuff like that changes you.

Show Ellaria also doesn't even have a book counterpart left past the duel, so any accusations of character assassination are completely ridiculious. There is nothing to assassinate in the first place.

This. Well said. Besides, I think a combo Ellaria/Arianna will be more interesting than either the two of them individually.

Things I loved this ep:

- Alliser and Slynt realizing they've been outplayed by facts and deeds, and the better man won. (Love Aemon!)

- Pod. Just love him.

- Kevan telling Cersei to fuck off.

- Arya decapitating a pigeon.

- A Man's return, makes a girl very happy.

- Professor Shireen. In a perfect world, they'd send her to the Citadel. Seriously! Smart girl, get thee to Old Town at once!

- Jon Snow giving STFU face to Stannis regarding his mercy to Mance.

- Love Alex Siddig as Doran. Well, I just love Alex Siddig.

- Love that Drogon wants to be a lap kitteh. Awe!!!

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Selyse wanted to leave Shireen behind last season and not take her to the wall. It was Mel that forced her to come. Whatever bad is happening to TV Shireen (if any) will likely be because of TV Mel.

I could just as easily see Selyse trying (or succeeding) to burn Shireen herself in the absence of Stannis and Mel. I recall Mel telling her last season that "she has the power to see in the flames" or to that effect. They make her look so loony that I wouldn't be surprised if she decides that's what needs to be done all on her own.

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Thoughts while watching:



- Jon's election was very unsatisfying in cinematic terms. The whole of his conflict over whether or not to accept Stannis's offer is wrapped up in about a minute, and everything at the Wall in this episode was crammed into one chunk. There's no build-up to the election, no suspense; the whole thing is just tossed off. Improving the situation wouldn't have been difficult; all it would take is adding a scene at the Wall towards the beginning of the episode where Jon is offered Winterfell and the coming election is established, while saving the actual vote for the end.



- In the books, Kevan has very little interaction with Cersei up until she offers him Handship, but he is a fairly well-established character by that point known to have the confidence of Tywin and insight into his mind. ShowKevan is not nearly so developed. And his rejection of Cersei came off, not as an uncle speaking the hard truth to a paranoid lunatic, but as a haughty old man refusing to take orders from a woman.



- On a related note: if I recall the "Inside the Episode" correctly, they said something to the effect of "Cersei is very good at manipulating people to get what she wants, and when Kevan rejects her, she sees for the first time that someone she can't manipulate." Considering how much the show has "embellished" Cersei by playing up her inability to control Joffrey or escape Tywin's control, that doesn't really ring true IMO.



- Arya and Dany stuff was all fine IMO.



- Considering my misgivings about where Sansa's story was going at the end of Season 4, that's proven a pleasant surprise so far.



- I think Brienne is ill-suited to be a POV character in the books, but she deserves better than this. She is played as such an idiot in this episode.


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Thoughts while watching:

- Jon's election was very unsatisfying in cinematic terms. The whole of his conflict over whether or not to accept Stannis's offer is wrapped up in about a minute, and everything at the Wall in this episode was crammed into one chunk. There's no build-up to the election, no suspense; the whole thing is just tossed off. Improving the situation wouldn't have been difficult; all it would take is adding a scene at the Wall towards the beginning of the episode where Jon is offered Winterfell and the coming election is established, while saving the actual vote for the end.

- In the books, Kevan has very little interaction with Cersei up until she offers him Handship, but he is a fairly well-established character by that point known to have the confidence of Tywin and insight into his mind. ShowKevan is not nearly so developed. And his rejection of Cersei came off, not as an uncle speaking the hard truth to a paranoid lunatic, but as a haughty old man refusing to take orders from a woman.

- On a related note: if I recall the "Inside the Episode" correctly, they said something to the effect of "Cersei is very good at manipulating people to get what she wants, and when Kevan rejects her, she sees for the first time that someone she can't manipulate." Considering how much the show has "embellished" Cersei by playing up her inability to control Joffrey or escape Tywin's control, that doesn't really ring true IMO.

- Arya and Dany stuff was all fine IMO.

- Considering my misgivings about where Sansa's story was going at the end of Season 4, that's proven a pleasant surprise so far.

- I think Brienne is ill-suited to be a POV character in the books, but she deserves better than this. She is played as such an idiot in this episode.

I didn't see it that way because his arguments all seemed grounded. Filling S.C. with sycophants, check. Assuming absolute authority, check. Etc.

It's also worth noting that he probably grieves for Tywin more than anyone else alive, when we last saw him Cersei completely blew him off as he tried to express sympathy, and his recently fanaticized son may have been dropping big hints about Cersei's past actions.

Edited by James Arryn
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The scene you're referring to in AFFC where he reveals his plans is with Arianne, not the sand snakes, who does not exist in the show. He talks with the Sand Snakes in a separate scene in ADWD.

Maybe I'm thinking of the ADWD scene then, specifically, I thought the "Fire & Blood" speech was given to the sand snakes after they had finished serving the kingsguard knight that brought the Dornish the supposed skull of the mountain and was planning to snatch Myrcella. Swann I believe is the knight's name. Or perhaps I'm jumbling both scenes together. It's been awhile since I last read those books.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit
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I think it is obvious that Mel is going to attempt to burn Shireen. But letting her get away with it is perhaps a bit too obvious.



This red god is starting to look just as bad as the White Walkers. Possibly the two are opposites (ice and fire). And at some point someone is going to intervene and stick it to Mel. The question is when does it happen, who tries to stop her and does she succeed.



GRRM is clearly hinting at the fate of Iphigenia. But will Shireen be willing to be sacrificed? I suspect that the wildings she has befriended will have a say in the matter. Though Sam and Gilly will be down south. It probably won't be Jon Snow either because he has stood up to Stannis several times already. It is obvious he is not going to stand for it.



On the lady stoneheart thing, I think that if she returns it will be kept as the deadliest of secrets till the moment it appears on the screen. The big problem for HBO is that too much time has elapsed for this to be Cat brought back to life. But they can probably get away with that if they make it clear that she is dead, dead, dead.



The reason I think they didn't want to bring Cat back was that much of the attraction of the series is in the fact that key characters are killed off so you never know who is safe. That is lost if the series becomes like Dune with all the characters killed off in book 2 coming back in books 3 and 4 being re-killed and coming back in 5. So if a character comes back it has to be worse than death.



I would think we have to get some more prepping on the guest rite thing as well. Maybe Mel can drop a hint to Jon.


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MAJOR BOOK DEVIATION: Selyse burns Shireen, but almost immediately regrets what she has done. When Stannis returns to the Wall after his victory at Winterfell and with Sansa and Reek in tow, Selyse lies to the king and says the wildings killed the princess. Stannis, mad with grief, blames Jon for not killing the wildlings and plunges a knife through his gut.

J/K

Hopefully, Sam and Gilly rescue Shireen and "For the Watch" happens exactly as it does in the books with Jon surviving of course.

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I have a question:



In the Books Selmy sides with Ned in going against Robert and council for killing Danny and her child, this week episode he tells her about her father and him burning people with wildfire; he was not in on the meeting in season one when the hit was put on her and the child so how will she learn that the reason she is alive is because of Ned, does anyone think she will learn it?


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I have a question:

In the Books Selmy sides with Ned in going against Robert and council for killing Danny and her child, this week episode he tells her about her father and him burning people with wildfire; he was not in on the meeting in season one when the hit was put on her and the child so how will she learn that the reason she is alive is because of Ned, does anyone think she will learn it?

I think the real question, is will she care?

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I think the real question, is will she care?

Jorah already told her Ned strongly objected to the KL horror, so I don't think it would be all that new. It probably seems to her like the distinction we make between the better/worse Nazis. Like I am sure they have variety, but they are still the people who destroyed my House/family.

Edited by James Arryn
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Jorah already told her Ned strongly objected to the KL horror, so I don't think it would be all that new. It probably seems to her like the distinction we make between the better/worse Nazis. Like I am sure they have variety, but they are still the people who destroyed my House/family.

But if she really thinks about it, her family caused it's own downfall, she still be dead if it wasn't for Ned.

Also in show Jorah only tells her if Ned did to him what she wants to do to the owners he wouldn't be there to give any advise, and she would really be dead since he could not stop her assassination.

Edited by Grail King
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But if she really thinks about it, her family caused it's own downfall, she still be dead if it wasn't for Ned.

She is not going to think her own family caused it's downfall.

1) she believes in absolute power as a birthright. Think about that for a moment. She believes that blood and destiny have chosen her family to rule.

2) at worst she would think Aerys needed to be removed.

She may adjust her TV enough to understand imperfection, but she is never going to see what actually happened as justice. At best she'll see a good point taken to horrific extremes.

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She is not going to think her own family caused it's downfall.

1) she believes in absolute power as a birthright. Think about that for a moment. She believes that blood and destiny have chosen her family to rule.

2) at worst she would think Aerys needed to be removed.

She may adjust her TV enough to understand imperfection, but she is never going to see what actually happened as justice. At best she'll see a good point taken to horrific extremes.

Then all she has to do is remember what Selmy told her and realize that destiny thought otherwise.

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