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LF told Sansa his marriage proposal was accepted and Sansa just replied something about Lysa. Yikes girl.



Good episode for the most part, loved Jon's smirk in the end when he read the letter.


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Sam told Jon about Bran last season and even led a party to Craster's Keep in hopes of finding him. He didn't. What is Jon supposed to say? "I heard that he is alive but never found him"? As far as Jon knows Bran might be dead. Bran went north of the Wall, I wound't blame Jon for thinking that his brother croaked.

Littlefinger suggested that Brienne stay because it is dangerous alone on the road. Clearly he wanted her killed. Brienne realized this too and wasn't going to cooperate.

I am positive that we will never see Quaithe again.

Do you just watch the show to compare it to the books? Seems like a waste.

People pronounce words differently within the same country all the time. Not sure how that is weird.

You're right, I don't remember Ellaria being there when Oberyn tells Cersei that they don't hurt little girls in Dorne. I probably don't remember that because she wasn't there. Oberyn was writing a poem, walked with Cersei, mentioned the Sand Snakes during his walk. Is the scene coming back to you now, because you clearly don't remember the scene that you are talking about. Or did you get a transplant?

Thank you!

Yes, Ellaria tried to calm Oberyn down...back when he had eyes and a head to put them in. If we as book readers are to accept that Cat can release Jaime and send Brienne on a ridiculous mission to King's Landing to get her daughters back, how is it difficult to believe that Ellaria will be angry after her lover's death?

Arya abandoned her with no trail, while Brienne has something to follow for Sansa. Also, for the people who ask why Brienne didn't bring up her meeting with Arya to Sansa: What could she have said that would have convinced Sansa of her meeting? Nothing.

Plus she didn't want LF to know. It's another reason why Brienne wanted to speak to Sansa alone/

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Plus she didn't want LF to know. It's another reason why Brienne wanted to speak to Sansa alone/

good point. I am hoping that Brienne can get her out of the mess that appears to be brewing for Sansa.

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The good:

-Brienne and Sansa's story are already better than the book counterparts

-An excuse to get Bronn to do something

-Lady Mormont's letter to Stannis..... and Jon laughing in Stannis' face

-Kevan Lannister's whole interaction with Cersei (and in fact, I hadn't noticed until now Kevan Lannister has been a repeat actor since S1)

-Maester Aemon being the final vote for Jon

-Gilly and Shireen's scene was nice... Gilly getting awkward as Shireen pressed towards finding out what actually happens to greyscale infected North of the wall was well acted.

-Sam talking smack about Slynt

-Barristan finally talking about the Mad King to Daenarys

The bad:
-Jon Snow's Election felt -super rushed-

-Doran.... I see lot's of people liked him in this episode, I was not one of them... I expected more of a Michael Corleone feel (that is calm, patient,decisive.... but someone who commands equal amounts of respect, and fear)... This Doran felt flacid... and frankly weak.

-Arya's story was nearly entirely worthless here.

-Ditto Tyrion's. Nothing that wasn't already covered at Illyrio's, save the bit about Shae asking him to leave, and him liking ruling.

The Best and Worst

-The execution and resulting riot... I didn't recognize the slave from Dany taking Mereen... There was little to no other buildup of him, other than some pissed off young man slave, who managed to get a few lines. I didn't even know he had a name. As such, there was little to no reason to actually care that he got his head chopped off.... That said, it was kind of well done if you ignore the red Star Trek shirt slave... The writing has to move the story towards a point, and that point is further civil unrest in Mereen. I doubt I was the only one who cringed in seeing a scene where Daenarys has a legitimate shot at being an effective ruler, and again,just failed horribly.... Had Daenarys simply gone out in public and said, "We have laws in my city, and Master or Slave, murderers will be punished" and then had the guy's head lopped off, the crowd wouldn't have been in a position to argue, and she would have shown the former slaves and former masters as equals.... Instead, in her quest to do the right thing, and with the same summary of actions, she instead managed to alienate both sides, and become a focal point/symbol of hatred and injustice to both factions. It feels like it was such easy solution, and she managed to effectively turn it into a train wreck with her ineptitude. Like the episode of the Simpsons where Homer is making food for Mr. Burns, and it keeps catching fire via the various cooking methods.... Finally,for the punchline he pours milk into a bowl of cereal, and again... it bursts into flames.... That is Daenarys ruling Mereen, and it's actually one thing the show has nailed, especially in this episode.

The Ugly:

-Ellaria... The writing here felt just awful

-Mace Tyrell.... This isn't even a character, its a caricature.

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Dany's conversation with Barristan was phenomenal and did the legwork of an entire book. Thank you, writers, for expediting this development and simultaneously making both characters a lot more dynamic a lot faster. When Mossador started talking about his father and wanting his life to have meant something, the look on Dany's face was agonizing.

I also liked that a lot.

What I Did Not Like:

The House of the ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ: HOLY. SHIT. No Arya in the first episode. We meet Arya and she goes to the House of the Black and White and Red All Over and… wow… sits there. Why? NO REASON! Literally no reason. Ever given. No reason. At all. But she waits. And it rains. And then it rains more. But she does not go in. Why? Because … ah… that would require the writers to actually move this story along and get to something that mattered.

Instead: A SCENE WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN!!!! That’s right! Arya… in an ally… with a sword… and pigeons!!! ! I remember season 1 too!!!!

Why can’t we go in? Why are we stuck out here where… nothing is happening? You know you have only 8 episodes left, right? And… oh, whatever… its mostly FfC and nothing happened there’re either.

Overall, another clunker of an episode. 0-for-2. Slow, plodding, uninspired. Slow… slow… slow….

The overall impression of the season before it was released was that it was “just as good” as the seasons before and “off books.”

The opposite, sadly, appears to be the case.

:agree:

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The thing I find well offensive is the word that comes to mind first about Ellaria wanting to hurt Myrcella for revenge is that hurting an innocent girl is the last thing Oberyn would want. Show or book Oberyn. The death of Elia and her little daughter was so traumatic for him and Doran. Myrcella had nothing to do with Oberyn's death and she can't help who her family is. Ellaria was Oberyn's soulmate her thirst for revenge would never triumph over being true and acting according to his values and ethics. I have no problem with Ellaria seeking to avenge Oberyn or her character merging with other characters but that doesn't mean she has to be turned into a shrieking shrew. I was cringing during that scene. I found it unbelievable that Ellaria would speak to Doran that way.

Show Stannis and Jon are good like book Stannis and Jon are good.

Seeing JH's face made me think fondly of past Syrio is dead fights uhm

I mean discussions, Syrio is dead discussions. Yes, I accept that he's dead.

Though maybe not on tv. Who knows? Crazier stuff has happened is all

I'm saying.

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The Best and Worst

-The execution and resulting riot... I didn't recognize the slave from Dany taking Mereen... There was little to no other buildup of him, other than some pissed off young man slave, who managed to get a few lines. I didn't even know he had a name. As such, there was little to no reason to actually care that he got his head chopped off.... That said, it was kind of well done if you ignore the red Star Trek shirt slave... The writing has to move the story towards a point, and that point is further civil unrest in Mereen. I doubt I was the only one who cringed in seeing a scene where Daenarys has a legitimate shot at being an effective ruler, and again,just failed horribly.... Had Daenarys simply gone out in public and said, "We have laws in my city, and Master or Slave, murderers will be punished" and then had the guy's head lopped off, the crowd wouldn't have been in a position to argue, and she would have shown the former slaves and former masters as equals.... Instead, in her quest to do the right thing, and with the same summary of actions, she instead managed to alienate both sides, and become a focal point/symbol of hatred and injustice to both factions. It feels like it was such easy solution, and she managed to effectively turn it into a train wreck with her ineptitude. Like the episode of the Simpsons where Homer is making food for Mr. Burns, and it keeps catching fire via the various cooking methods.... Finally,for the punchline he pours milk into a bowl of cereal, and again... it bursts into flames.... That is Daenarys ruling Mereen, and it's actually one thing the show has nailed, especially in this episode.

I might agree with you if you actually made a suggestion that was "better" than the show's; instead you make the same one...with a different speech she could have said. Unless you're being sarcastic.

Edited by Kyoshi

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I didn't recognize the slave from Dany taking Mereen... There was little to no other buildup of him, other than some pissed off young man slave, who managed to get a few lines. I didn't even know he had a name. As such, there was little to no reason to actually care that he got his head chopped off....

I thought that actor was really good in his comparatively brief screentime, I will say.

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I might agree with you if you actually made a suggestion that was "better" than the show's; instead you make the same one...with a different speech she could have said. Unless you're being sarcastic.

That was actually my point...

She had the right reasoning, and right idea.... and yet she still managed to screw it up entirely by getting up and making a weak speech, while looking like anything but a strong leader, who upholds justice.

It kind of goes back to one of her early scenes with the Dothraki and Viserys, where she's begging the Dothraki to not hurt him, rather than acting like a ruler and ordering him released.. She isn't a strong ruler, and continually makes mistakes pretending otherwise. And that's not a complaint, rather it's actually a compliment, as it is actually exactly how her character is supposed to be portrayed right now.

Edited by Epyon

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She could have given the greatest speech in the world and it wouldn't have changed a damn thing if she still executed Mossador. The former slaves would still have been pissed.


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Hello again all! Here's why this weeks episode sucked:


-Shortening Arya's list and removing Illyn, Dunsen, and Raff. She talked about them in seasons 1 and 2. Are we just supposed to forget they existed? How dumb do D&D think their audience is?


-Arya just giving up at the House of Black and White and going back to season 1 where she wanders around the streets and murders animals.


-Brienne just randomly running into LF and Sansa at some sort of tavern, again as if Westeros is the size of Disneyland. And as if the Lord of the Eyrie eating there wouldn't shut everything down. Plus everybody just fully knowing and accepting that this is Sansa. Do D&D understand she's a wanted fugitive and LF is keeping her a SECRET?


-Sansa being an asshole to Brienne for no absolutely reason. In the books she's a pawn of Littlefinger because she has no other choice. Wtf are they doing to her with this whole "dark sansa" crap?


-Superhero Brienne, mightiest in Westeros. First she easily defeats Jaime, then the Hound, now she can cut through steel with 1 hand. She's not even that strong in the books, simply able to compete with men. Enough with the stronk independent wymz crap D&D


-Changing Jon's reason for refusing being legitimized. In the books it's because if he was legitimized by a follower of the Red God instead of the Old Gods, the entire North wouldn't accept him. Because that actually made sense. D&D had to dumb it down, though.


-Jaime's Dorne mission makes no sense. If you want Mycrella back, write that you want her back or at least send your own men to protect her in Dorne (which is what Cersei does in the books because she's not retarded). What does Jaime hope to accomplish exactly? They'll either say yes or no, and a Lannister traveling there right after Oberyn's death is even more retarded. Plus Jaime never gave a crap about Cersei's kids in the books and doesn't consider them his own because he never raised them.


-Ellaria Sand going from the voice of reason and restraint in the books to being a violent maniac who even casually threatens Doran for no reason. This is why the season needed Arianne, but D&D cut her for no reason.


-Varys in general. Show Varys is far too nice, far too sincerely flattering, and in love with Tyrion for some reason. What is he even doing with Tyrion anyway? He's called the Spider for a reason, he has agents everywhere to do this kind of shit for him. I miss the menacing, morally dubious, ruthless Varys of the books.


-The fucking box speech. You can tell that much like the Beetles Speech, D&D thought this was the most brilliant shit ever and demonstrates they don't need book dialogue. But it's just fucking banal and stupid.


-Mace Tyrell as Master of Ships. Is it really that hard to include Paxter Redwyne when you introduce all these fucking stupid show-only characters? What does Mace know about ships anyway? Highgarden is fucking landlocked. Oh and he's also Master of Coin you say? How the fuck is somebody supposed to do both of these jobs at once? D&D are scared of book characters apparently, maybe they take away from their brilliant show-creations like Ramsay's annoying out of place girlfriend


-Qyburn as Hand of the King. A deranged disgraced Maester as Hand? Not even book Cersei is this stupid. It's tantamount to when Aerys made Rosart his Hand.


-"Master of War". Oh gee, D&D made up a new Small Council position. Treating it like it's a fucking defense ministry instead of a feudal army system.


-Queen Selyse running around Castle Black without her Queen's Men. The whole point of Selyse at the Wall is how out of place and uncomfortable she is there.


-Sam the Slayer being used as an insult instead of a term of respect like it is in the books. D&D fucked up the whole slaying scene, then take away the entire point of its aftermath. Bravo.


-Hizdhar being some whiny sycophant of Daenerys instead of the scheming bastard he is in the books. And no, there's no indication the show has any intention of going this way with the character


-Are they really stupid enough to make the Son of the Harpy ONE guy in the show? They're the SONS of the Harpy. They're an insurgency. First D&D have Yunkai immediately surrender, then they reduce her resistance to 1 guy. What exactly is she supposed to do this season when you take out both of her primary ADWD confrontations? Get eaten out by Daario and whine about muh dragons?


-This whole trial shit. Oh l o fucking l. Dany crucifies people on the way to Meereen and all of a sudden is obsessed with giving people a fair trial for absolutely no reason.


-Oh top of that, when this guy kills the Harpy she just goes and executes him without a trial. So Dany is obsessed with fair trials for her enemies suddenly, but disregards it when one of her own does something bad. Bravo D&D, this is true brilliant writing. What were they trying to accomplish her anyway? It's a fucking EXACT repeat of the Robb-Karstark storyline from A Storm of Swords. Have they run out of ideas for their genius "original content"?


-HSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. Most unintentionally funny thing of the series so far. How goddamn ridiculous.


I'll be here all season. Weekly reminder that the show has been shit since season 2 and the books are better.

Edited by HouseHarrison

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Well, TV-Myrcella looks like she's a teenager, not a child, but she is a young girl, and utterly innocent of Oberyn's death. The Sand Snakes and TV-Ellaria are vicious fools, Oberyn willingly fought with the Mountain, endangering his life by his own choice, which Ellaria should know.

absolutely right. He did endanger his own life. But there was already bad blood there as well.

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That was actually my point...

She had the right reasoning, and right idea.... and yet she still managed to screw it up entirely by getting up and making a weak speech, while looking like anything but a strong leader, who upholds justice.

I agree with El Guapo on this, I don't think a "better speech" would have helped at all. What she said was pretty basic, not meant for interpretation. Better speech would not have solved the fundamental problem of the crowd thinking that their Mhysa was turning against them...that's too simplistic and not at all practical.

It kind of goes back to one of her early scenes with the Dothraki and Viserys, where she's begging the Dothraki to not hurt him, rather than acting like a ruler and ordering him released.. She isn't a strong ruler, and continually makes mistakes pretending otherwise. And that's not a complaint, rather it's actually a compliment, as it is actually exactly how her character is supposed to be portrayed right now.

She was still a novice khaleesi there...and Vis had been her elder her entire life, he had always held power over her. That doesn't get erased by a few days of being a khaleesi. That is, she was still working her way through adjusting to the power she had recently gained. But he was still her brother....and she still feared him. Her transition would not have seemed natural otherwise, and we would be debating whether or not she settled into her power too quickly.

Anyway, things I think were well done, or continue to be well done:

Hizdhar - I like that he's a lot more subtle than the books and that he never had the ridiculous hair and mannerisms.

Daario - Then again, I like him in the books as well.

The Wall - Kit is still nailing it this season. I hope Stannis gets fried soon.

Mad Aerys - I'm glad that's out of the way and Dany knows.

Drogon - Awesomely huge and has human-like facial expressions.

Horror:

Dorne, especially Ellaria

Season 1 Arya is back, wandering the streets and killing pigeons

Darth Sansa

Inconsistent Cersei

Luckluster Jaime

Inconsistent Pod and Brienne

Where is Ghost? Where is Ghost? Where is Ghost?

Edited by Kyoshi

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How is this ^ not considered trolling and flamebait?

Because it's all opinions on the show and not attacking any other members or going off topic?

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True, the TV show's writers are not only changing the plotlines, they are drastically altering the characters. And they didn't have to do so; Ellaria would have been just as interesting, perhaps even more so, if she had not been thirsting for Myrcella's blood.

Ellaria's speech was one of the most memorable moments in the books, a humanistic statement where Martin transferred himself to us readers. Her word were on one level with Septon Meribalds most touching history,something setting the tone for the books within all that grislyness.

And that is why I am so sad that Ellaria has been transformed into that person thisting for revenge. It is a fundamental change that hurts.

And the actress would have maybe one scene to say don't take vengeance and then she would be gone. That was book Ellaria. I like the actress and so I like that they have re-written her to want vengeance.

I just love the actress, Indira Varma is so charismatic and beautiful, just magnetic. And I absolutely want to see more of her. You may be right that by that change of her personality the odds are higher that she will have more story impact.

And yet: Ellaria was one of my favorite characters in the books and I will miss her. I do not care if Arianne has been left out but I would want the real ;) Ellaria!

Maybe the show will establish a turnaround of her approach after some bitter experiences with vengeance (didn't she have that already?!) and we may still get her speech.

Edited by Woman of War

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