[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIII - Ghosts of offers passed

[ummester]

I hope you are right and the show is just leading us to believe it is Sansa that is on the receiving end. I hope it is Myranda.

I'm 90% sure, from the books and show, that Sansa needs to bring down the 'giant' that is LF and that this won't happen in Season 5. Show Sansa may use Ramsay to do this, or may not - but I don't think show Ramsay will hurt Sansa in Season 5. I think they will use the Sansa marrying Ramsay thing as a form of tension for Sansa's character - I'm not even certain that the wedding will eventuate but am pretty certain that show Sansa will have to start playing her own game with the Bolton's and that show Myranda will get jealous as show Ramsay becomes more and more smitten with show Sansa.

Oh, and as a side note, it looks like using Ramsay as a form of tension has worked with all the Sansa fans :D

Personally, I don't give an emotional crap about any of the characters - I'm emotionally invested in seeing the overall saga resolve on what I consider an effective note. I believe, when show Ramsay said to show Theon, "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" he was talking far more to the audience than soon to be dickless Greyjoy.

[Lord Damian]

I will jump the gun on this and suggest that Littlefinger leaves Sansa in Winterfell but tells her not to worry, you will be saved and not have to go through with this. Then, say wedding happens and Sansa has to do what brides do, will she be upset with Littlefinger? or will she simply look at it as if to say, "well, I took one for the team"? I mean, if Sansa has to go through with it all in her current innocent state, would you guys not think that she would harbor bitter feelings towards Littlefinger for having put her through this? What if she becomes pregnant by Ramsay?

[ummester]

I will jump the gun on this and suggest that Littlefinger leaves Sansa in Winterfell but tells her not to worry, you will be saved and not have to go through with this. Then, say wedding happens and Sansa has to do what brides do, will she be upset with Littlefinger? or will she simply look at it as if to say, "well, I took one for the team"? I mean, if Sansa has to go through with it all in her current innocent state, would you guys not think that she would harbor bitter feelings towards Littlefinger for having put her through this? What if she becomes pregnant by Ramsay?

I think that is totally on the right track - Sansa's Season 5 arc will be about learning to mistrust and possibly hate LF.

Re her getting pregnant to Ramsay - that would be interesting. What would a legitimate Bolton Stark mean for the North? How would Jon and Bran feel about that? But I'm not sure Season 5 will have a Sansa bedding scene, as such. Sansa may even pull the 'But I'm still married to a Lannister' as a way to postpone things.

[mirthula]

Guys lets step back and see things from Sansa POV based on what she knows. What is the real difference between Boltons and Lannisters from Sansa perspective, Sansa was traumatized by Lannisters they killed her family, abused and tormented her but she went on to marry Tyrion son of house Lannister and despite all the hatred she had for house Lannister she had a genuine bond with Tyrion because Sansa was able to see that Tyrion was kind to her and was not like the rest of the Lannisters and even defended his character to others who mocked her husband. Now Boltons murdered her family too but as far as she is concerned it was Roose Bolton who could have planned the whole thing, Sansa knows nothing about Ramsay yet are sons responsible for their fathers sins. Now if Ramsay plays his cards right and doesn't reveal his psychopathic side to Sansa then Sansa will go through with the wedding just like with Tyrion she will compromise without knowing the full story. Unless something happens this traumatic stuff that is happening might reveal to her the real Ramsay SHOCK SHOCK SHOCK Ramsay is worst than Joffrey, she will feel she is back to square one trapped with another sadist. Sansa is not margery to think she can marry someone like Joffrey and control him after based on her charms. I think this is when Sansa revenge gear will kick into place, she is not going to go down without a fight not again, she will try to stall the marriage like many are hoping she will use her marriage to Tyrion to stall the proceedings, saying some crap about faith of the seven will not accept polygamy any children she might have will be bastards, mention bastard that should be enough to make Ramsay squirm. But the biggest problem here is that if Stannis is attacking Winterfell Bolton would want to legitimize this marriage as soon as possible so Sansa is definitely in a lot of trouble. Who knows we might even get Sansa lying so far as saying she consummated her marriage with Lord Tyrion woooooooooohhhhh that would be Sansa playing the game lying about her honour.

[sleath56]

I think that is totally on the right track - Sansa's Season 5 arc will be about learning to mistrust and possibly hate LF.

I'm beginning to believe that when show!Littlefinger pushed Lysa down the Moon Door, his brain also fell out with her.

[rayarts]

I hope you are right and the show is just leading us to believe it is Sansa that is on the receiving end. I hope it is Myranda.

Yeah, I am pretty sure this is gonna be it.

[Wouter]

I will jump the gun on this and suggest that Littlefinger leaves Sansa in Winterfell but tells her not to worry, you will be saved and not have to go through with this. Then, say wedding happens and Sansa has to do what brides do, will she be upset with Littlefinger? or will she simply look at it as if to say, "well, I took one for the team"? I mean, if Sansa has to go through with it all in her current innocent state, would you guys not think that she would harbor bitter feelings towards Littlefinger for having put her through this? What if she becomes pregnant by Ramsay?

A pregnancy seems very unlikely, that would probably change things too much from the books. The marrying Ramsay part is loaned from Jeyne in the books, sooner or later Sansa is going to have to rejoin her book-arc and for that to happen I think consequences from sidequests (like Jon and Bran at Crasters, Jaime in Dorne and now Sansa with Ramsay) have to be limited.

[Woman of War]

Sorry, I don't remember:

Does Sansa in the series know that Tyrion has escaped or does she believe - like Lysa told her he would - that Tyrion has been executed?

[ummester]

Sorry, I don't remember:

Does Sansa in the series know that Tyrion has escaped or does she believe - like Lysa told her he would - that Tyrion has been executed?

I don't think Sansa has be explicitly told that Tyrion escaped in show - but you'd think that kind of news would get around the realm fairly fast.

[Woman of War]

Meaning she could take refuge to being a married woman already in case she finds out about Ramsay's hobbies before the wedding ceremony.

[Facebookless Man]

A pregnancy seems very unlikely, that would probably change things too much from the books.

How do you know that? Book Sansa is apparently about to marry HtH and try to reclaim the North. And Sansa's whole point back when GRRM conceived her was to choose her son over her family.

If Ramsay dies after getting Sansa pregnant Sansa's child is Lord of Winterfell. Think about that.

I have no idea what is going to happen in either books or show, but this is certainly a possibility.

[ummester]

Meaning she could take refuge to being a married woman already in case she finds out about Ramsay's hobbies before the wedding ceremony.

Yes, or she could try.

I see it playing out in a way where Sansa learns that Ramsay is a dangerous psycho because of what he does to someone like Myranda and then she tries to avoid getting married.- creating immediate tension for her character, like how is she going to get out of this? Can she get out of this?

[Wouter]

How do you know that? Book Sansa is apparently about to marry HtH and try to reclaim the North. And Sansa's whole point back when GRRM conceived her was to choose her son over her family.

If Ramsay dies after getting Sansa pregnant Sansa's child is Lord of Winterfell. Think about that.

I have no idea what is going to happen in either books or show, but this is certainly a possibility.

Book Sansa is unlikely to marry Harry anytime soon: in the preview chapter, Sansa herself thought that she couldn't marry anyone till Tyrion was death. And even if she would marry him (by some machination of LF), reclaiming the north through Vale forces would have to wait till spring, due to winter closing off the passes between Vale and River Lands as well as the impossibility for southern armies to move in the snows in the north. I doubt the marriage will take place, it seems to me that her situation with Tyrion has to be addressed first and that can likely only happen after Dany lands in Westeros.

Moreover, in both books and show Bran and Rickon are alive. The latter is the likely lord of Winterfell, considering Bran may decline due to his location and condition. Sansa from the original outline has been changed, as have most of the other characters; a watered down version of that concept has taken place with Joffrey and that seems to be done and buried.

Ramsay is a sadist and a sworn enemy of her family; Harry may be a bit of an ass but he is not an enemy of the Starks. To the contrary, due to the influence of Yohn Royce he is likely to be rather well-disposed towards Ned Stark and by extension his family. His character also seems far removed from that of Ramsay, be it book or show version. And there is no way in the books that Sansa would marry Ramsay; I doubt Ramsay will even survive the opening chapters of TWOW.

[Grail King]

Sorry, I don't remember:

Does Sansa in the series know that Tyrion has escaped or does she believe - like Lysa told her he would - that Tyrion has been executed?

From the gift chapter:

No man can wed me so long as my dwarf husband still lives somewhere in this world. Queen Cersei had collected the head of a dozen dwarfs, Petyr claimed, but none were Tyrion’s.

[Woman of War]

Thank you

Meaning in the books Sansa knows she is still married to Tyrion while in the series this is not explicitely stated but we can assume she knows.

[Grail King]

Thank you

Meaning in the books Sansa knows she is still married to Tyrion while in the series this is not explicitely stated but we can assume she knows.

That is my thinking, characters in the show seem to know more then what we think, as will be shown tonight .

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Good call everyone on the Myranda thing. It looks like D&D did leave us clues about Sansa's return besides what was already in the books (snow castle).

[voodooqueen126]

There is one of the plot holes in Martin's writing.

At that fictional timesetting they should already have artists who do relatively correct life portraits and sketches.

And every representative court would have battled for the best artists to deliver royal portraits. Sansa as fiancée of the king would for sure have sat for portrayal by the best. And there would have been miniatures to give to Brienne or to Cersei's hunters to take with them.

And Brienne would not have needed Pod to identify Sansa or some Vale guys could not have been fooled.

Yeah, this really gets to me, by the time of the Wars of the Roses, the Italian Renaissance had been on since Giotto and the Northern Renaissance (Jan Van Eyck, Memling) was in full swing and the Franco Flemish School was in it's second generation... Yet Westeros has a little bit of sculpture (a bit like that one of Uta and Count Eckhart (1245) but that's basically it. Westeros seems to mostly lack culture.