[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIII - Ghosts of offers passed

[Woman of War]

To be fair Sansa would have been unreasonable to trust Brienne, the one who so far failed to protect everyone she had sworn to protect, despite being full of best intentions. Sansa's approach was the only way to handle the situation. And Baelish was extremely clever when he invited Brienne to their table.

While, sorry to say, Brienne was brave but dumb. If a woman dyes her hair not to be recognized it is rather tactless to address her with her name aloud and in public. I guess there was no ladies bathroom though even ladies might go to the loo from time to time, there a meeting would have been sensible. Brienne really could have come up with something creative.

I love the character of Brienne but her honor tends to cloud her brain. Only I guess the show - and Martin in the books - will grant her a moment to sparkle sooner or later. And Sansa will come back to gladly accepting her help when she, Sansa, has been in Ramsay's claws and absolutely has to get out.

[lostinwesteros]

I'll have to say that although I can understand Sansa aligning herself with LF to some extent (since otherwise she's pretty alone in the Westeros world and definitely doesn't have the skills of Arya to survive on her own), I'm dismayed to find her once again making poor choices. Never a Sansa fan, I was really developing a healthy respect and liking for her in the way she handled her time at the Eyrie, but alas, that was short lived. She could have asked Brienne many questions in order to get enough information to make a more informed decision. Instead, she was totally dismissive and IMO has become totally (and foolishly) dependent on LF (whom she's had ample opportunity to see through). Has she learned nothing about being manipulated by very bad people?

PS - I know there're load of Sansa fans in this thread - please don't treat me too harshly! :ohwell:

[Lord Martin]

Here's how I see Sansa's season 5 arc playing out given what we've seen and the previews for the season: (warning plenty of book spoilers and references)

LF is promising Sansa to Ramsay Bolton which gets him some real influence in the north no matter how it shakes out. He is encouraging her to use her new found skills to oust the Boltons and claim WF for herself. The hope is Sansa claims the north in her own right. This will benefit LF in the future as Sansa will support any higher ambition LF has out of gratitude.

I love the idea that Sansa will oversee the cooking of some Frey pies at her wedding. So I see her as a combo of Jeyne Poole and Wyman Manderly within Winterfell.

I'm horrified because I suspect Theon/Reek will "bend to his task" on Sansa instead of Jeyne Poole in a very twisted Sansa/Theon/Ramsay bedding scene...

I think Brienne and Pod will stand in for Mance and the Washerwomen and attempt to rescue Sansa from WF. More specifically, I suspect she'll sneak into WF and try multiple times to get Sansa to flee, but Sansa has plots against Ramsay and Roose she wants to see through. Then Sansa will get busted, b/c she's not quite skilled enough and then she'll turn to Brienne for help. Somehow Theon will be in that mix too. Sansa/Briene and Theon flee Winterfell...probably jumping off the walls ala the book.

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.

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And fall right into Stannis's lap as he's camped outside... end season...

[Lord Martin]

I'll have to say that although I can understand Sansa aligning herself with LF to some extent (since otherwise she's pretty alone in the Westeros world and definitely doesn't have the skills of Arya to survive on her own), I'm dismayed to find her once again making poor choices. Never a Sansa fan, I was really developing a healthy respect and liking for her in the way she handled her time at the Eyrie, but alas, that was short lived. She could have asked Brienne many questions in order to get enough information to make a more informed decision. Instead, she was totally dismissive and IMO has become totally (and foolishly) dependent on LF (whom she's had ample opportunity to see through). Has she learned nothing about being manipulated by very bad people?

PS - I know there're load of Sansa fans in this thread - please don't treat me too harshly! :ohwell:

I think the Hound said it best at the end of season 4 "Safe? Where the f@$% is that?"

Sansa is safest w/ LF right now... its the least worst option. She knows he needs her and needs her alive... that's good enough for now.

[Woman of War]

Do any of you remember Mel in season 3 telling Stannis and Davos that something about leading lambs to the slaughter and that none of them ever saw the blade until the end. It reminds me of Littlefinger and Sansa. He has not told her yet that SHE is the betrothed and to WHO she is betrothed to. She is following him just like the lambs in Mel's story. Not that she has a real choice. Brienne gives her some hope but it was sensible not to take it, giving the outnumbered forces as well as observing her in King's Landing. Sansa does not trust Littlefinger but he is all she has. Remember, apparently White Harbor and Wyman Manderly are not at play in this and that sucks. Jon is at the Wall, but he is just now been elected Lord Commander, when word gets out, I wonder how it may or may not change the dynamic from Littlefinger and the Bolton's perspective.

I believe Sansa to a large extent trusts Baelish by now. She is not desperately grasping a straw, the devil she knows, but she is quite comfortable and relaxed with him now. All she can see is that he treats her with respect and we as viewers are supposed to at least consider the possibility that he acts with her wellbeing in mind. And maybe he does. Maybe what he intends to give her is what he indeed believes to be what she wants. He may be so self obsessed that he has convinced himself that what is good for her must be good for him and vice versa, never intending to be evil. Cognitive dissonance. He does not intend to harm Sansa, though he is convinced that some sacrifices would be in her own interest finally. And Sansa's cognitive dissonance is not to read the signs any longer. While we as viewers (and readers) are lured into the same trap and get clouded for the sake of plot tension.

[Envie]

I think the Hound said it best at the end of season 4 "Safe? Where the f@$% is that?"

Sansa is safest w/ LF right now... its the least worst option. She knows he needs her and needs her alive... that's good enough for now.

Yes! The Hound was right, and Arya knew it too. She hated him but stood there laughing her head off because she realized nowhere was safe, even after all the effort to get to the Eyrie only to find out her Aunt had died three days before that (still not sure why they didn't take Arya to LF though). At that point, an offer of 'rescue' from Brienne probably seemed ludicrous as well. She might as well stay with the "devil you know" even if the Hound had originally been someone she despised - he too was just as much an exile as herself.

In Sansa's case, she knows Littlefinger's game now, he's well enough revealed that hand of cards to her and so she's playing along with it. Everyone seems to think Sansa's just 'naive' and trusting him, but I really don't think she does. I think like her sister Arya, she's decided he's her best bet for now, like the Hound was, and those are smart choices for both of them. Sansa has no way of knowing what Littlefinger's plot is and where they're going so she continues to follow him out of necessity. Where else can she go? Brienne is not a safe bet at this point.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I believe Sansa to a large extent trusts Baelish by now. She is not desperately grasping a straw, the devil she knows, but she is quite comfortable and relaxed with him now.

I don't get the impression that she trusts him but that she does believe she can rely on him and yes, she's comfortable with him. I think she believes she can handle him, based on her interactions with him last season but I don't think she really can and I worry she might be underestimating him.

[Zaphrinar]

When it comes down to it, i truly think Baelish will never kill Sansa.

The actor, the show people & even the author admit that he has feelings for her. And now Cat is gone. Only Sansa is left. He may use her but i dont think he will harm her on purpose.

What is his endgame?

Obvious - IRON THRONE.

In order to win the game, he wants to seat Sansa there & make her fall in love with him too.

If he kills her, his own story ends. He has been lurking in Sansas chapter from book 1.

:bowdown:

Yep, 100% and Sansa knows that and she'll give him the boot the moment he thinks he is safe and secure. I feel like that would be a successful outcome :cheers:

[Masha]

Here's how I see Sansa's season 5 arc playing out given what we've seen and the previews for the season: (warning plenty of book spoilers and references)

LF is promising Sansa to Ramsay Bolton which gets him some real influence in the north no matter how it shakes out. He is encouraging her to use her new found skills to oust the Boltons and claim WF for herself. The hope is Sansa claims the north in her own right. This will benefit LF in the future as Sansa will support any higher ambition LF has out of gratitude.

I love the idea that Sansa will oversee the cooking of some Frey pies at her wedding. So I see her as a combo of Jeyne Poole and Wyman Manderly within Winterfell.

I'm horrified because I suspect Theon/Reek will "bend to his task" on Sansa instead of Jeyne Poole in a very twisted Sansa/Theon/Ramsay bedding scene...

I think Brienne and Pod will stand in for Mance and the Washerwomen and attempt to rescue Sansa from WF. More specifically, I suspect she'll sneak into WF and try multiple times to get Sansa to flee, but Sansa has plots against Ramsay and Roose she wants to see through. Then Sansa will get busted, b/c she's not quite skilled enough and then she'll turn to Brienne for help. Somehow Theon will be in that mix too. Sansa/Briene and Theon flee Winterfell...probably jumping off the walls ala the book.

.

.

.

And fall right into Stannis's lap as he's camped outside... end season...

That's my prediction for this season too. But I am positively sure that D&D would not go as far as to allow Sansa be sexually abused by Ramsey/Theon. Yes, she will be threatened to the point of rape with her clothes being almost completely off (like in season 2 RK riot scene) but she will never actually get to the point of rape/abuse. Because, I think a lot of viewers can tolerate grotesque deaths of main characters, they can tolerate a lot of explicit rape scenes and sexpositions scenes, but I sincerely doubt that they can tolerate the actual rape of beloved character they saw grow up in the series from 13-year-old girl (grotesque and bloody death - for sure - rape definitely not), and I am sure that D&D and HBO are perfectly aware that this is a step too far.

So my prediction to Sansa/Ramsey/Theon bedding scene - very close but stopped in time!

[Woman of War]

This may be the season when Sansa's skin but also her mind finally turn from ivory to porcelaine to steel in a most drastic way.

[Envie]

When it comes down to it, i truly think Baelish will never kill Sansa.

The actor, the show people & even the author admit that he has feelings for her. And now Cat is gone. Only Sansa is left. He may use her but i dont think he will harm her on purpose.

What is his endgame?

Obvious - IRON THRONE.

In order to win the game, he wants to seat Sansa there & make her fall in love with him too.

If he kills her, his own story ends. He has been lurking in Sansas chapter from book 1.

You're right - so why do the show writers decide to have Littlefinger make such risky gambles with the object of his affection for so long? Even if he has no idea just how terrible Ramsay is, offering to marry Sansa off to the Boltons does not seem like a very safe bet. Yes, he's willing to make gambles to get ahead - clearly he did so in King's Landing, and then again in the Eyrie - but this change of story to using the real Sansa Stark as a marriage pawn to the Boltons is pretty difficult to accept even though I already reasoned it out after the season opener and all of the discussion here proving she was in fact going to Winterfell so there's only one obvious reason she'd be going there - and it made no sense at first. Now it does make more sense but I'm still not buying it that Littlefinger would take that big of a risk with his favorite toy. I think it might be another example of how they've changed Littlefinger's character from the books just enough to make people think he's stupid when in the books he's always been one of the most clever players of all.

[Woman of War]

That's my prediction for this season too. But I am positively sure that D&D would not go as far as to allow Sansa be sexually abused by Ramsey/Theon. Yes, she will be threatened to the point of rape with her clothes being almost completely off (like in season 2 RK riot scene) but she will never actually get to the point of rape/abuse. Because, I think a lot of viewers can tolerate grotesque deaths of main characters, they can tolerate a lot of explicit rape scenes and sexpositions scenes, but I sincerely doubt that they can tolerate the actual rape of beloved character they saw grow up in the series from 13-year-old girl (grotesque and bloody death - for sure - rape definitely not), and I am sure that D&D and HBO are perfectly aware that this is a step too far.

So my prediction to Sansa/Ramsey/Theon bedding scene - very close but stopped in time!

I wonder how many posters can discuss Shireen getting burned to death in a far more cold blooded manner than Sansa getting the Ramsay treatment. Shireen would be dead afterwards while Sansa would still have a story to tell ahead of her if she escapes in the same cliffhanger way like Jeyne and Theon did.

Edit: .......Ivory to porcelaine to steel is one of my very favorite, most poetic quotes from all books so far.

[Lord Damian]

My thoughts exactly but if she went with Brienne, however, maybe she is buying time for herself as LF would have sent all of those men to chase them down and Sansa would have been taken against her will and maybe treated worse. She seemed to want to go with Brienne but gauged the situation and actually warned Brienne that she should go (she had a gut feeling that LF would have Brienne killed). Sansa is looking for lifelines. Viable ones.

[Kelsey094]

I think Brienne will save Sansa eventually. With no LS, what else is she gonna do?

[Grayven]

Pure fan speculation ahead! You have been warned.

I'd like to see Sansa rebel at the thought of marrying Ramsay. and run off. Not too hard to imagine, considering what the Boltons did to her family.

I'd think that Brienne, Pod, and Sansa would probably head North to the Wall. Not many other places for them to go if they're running from pretty much every armed force in Westeros.

• Brienne gets a dramatic moment with Stannis,
  
• Jon gets a hug from his half-sister (sic) and Team Stark gets an actual two-sided reunion.
  
• Stannis gets a Winterfell bargaining chip to use to gather an army of the North.
  
• Littlefinger will be forced to come up with a fSansa for Ramsay, aligning back with the books somewhat for both Ramsay's predilections and Theon's redemption.
  

[Lord Damian]

I believe Sansa to a large extent trusts Baelish by now. She is not desperately grasping a straw, the devil she knows, but she is quite comfortable and relaxed with him now. All she can see is that he treats her with respect and we as viewers are supposed to at least consider the possibility that he acts with her wellbeing in mind. And maybe he does. Maybe what he intends to give her is what he indeed believes to be what she wants. He may be so self obsessed that he has convinced himself that what is good for her must be good for him and vice versa, never intending to be evil. Cognitive dissonance. He does not intend to harm Sansa, though he is convinced that some sacrifices would be in her own interest finally. And Sansa's cognitive dissonance is not to read the signs any longer. While we as viewers (and readers) are lured into the same trap and get clouded for the sake of plot tension.

Do you remember the end of last season and Sansa? As she is stitching her now famous black dress tells LF "I Know What You Want", he asks what and she parted her lips as if to say "You want ME". That is his ultimate "personal goal" He wants power too and titles but she is what he wants most. He is playing a very dangerous game and is apparently taking a big risk with her but she is his ultimate prize. Do not doubt this. No, Sansa does not trust Littlefinger. She has to atleast pretend to at this point until/unless another option appears better.

[Lord Damian]

A thought just struck me, show Littlefinger just lied to Lord Royce and whisked Sansa Stark away (he knows it is her) to marry her to the Boltons which everyone in the Vale knows of them and their reputation. How is Lord Royce, Anya Waynewood and Ser Lyn going to react to this news when it eventually gets out? Also, how will this effect Littlefinger's grip on the Vale? I am sure they felt they could protect her there just fine enough.

[Woman of War]

Do you remember the end of last season and Sansa? As she is stitching her now famous black dress tells LF "I Know What You Want", he asks what and she parted her lips as if to say "You want ME". That is his ultimate "personal goal" He wants power too and titles but she is what he wants most. He is playing a very dangerous game and is apparently taking a big risk with her but she is his ultimate prize. Do not doubt this. No, Sansa does not trust Littlefinger. She has to atleast pretend to at this point until/unless another option appears better.

I disagree, sorry.

I believe Sansa has started to identify herself with Baelish and her role in Baelish's plans or what she believes to be her role. And Baelish is genuinely convinced that he might give something to Sansa she, if not yet, will value some day.

But of course my interpretation is not more valid than yours.

And yet despite all that criticism towards Sansa's altered storyline: I love the greater ambiguity in the relationship of Baelish and Sansa, an ambiguity that comes from a more adult and stronger Sansa. And let's face it: Sophie Turner can no longer play the naive young innocent girl, the actress would by now be a waste in that role and the show is wise to make use of that new quality for story's sake. If that Sansa gets betrayed then not because she is clueless but because the betrayer is more cunning.

['96Buck]

You think Brienne might remember to inform Sansa her sister is alive...

So, you have a living sister. Your blabby mouth has now betrayed her, too. The Hound was wise to hide her from me. Now your failure is complete. If Sansa won't be turned to the Littlefinger side, then perhaps she will.

[HexMachina]

I just watched the Brienne scene. I can't even...